Posted on 04/30/2008 11:11:05 AM PDT by Free ThinkerNY
By APRIL CASTRO
Associated Press Writer
AUSTIN, Texas - Texas officials told legislators Wednesday that they're investigating the possible sexual abuse of some young boys taken from a polygamist sect's ranch, as well as broken bones among other children.
The disclosures are the first suggestions that anyone other than teenage girls may have been sexually or physically abused at the ranch run by the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, a renegade Mormon sect.
In written and oral testimony provided to lawmakers Wednesday, officials with the state Department of Family and Protective Services said interviews and journal entries suggested that boys may have been sexually abused.
Earlier, the department's commissioner, Carey Cockerell, told lawmakers that at least 41 children, some of them "very young," have evidence of broken bones.
(Excerpt) Read more at news.yahoo.com ...
In before the accusations LEOs faked this evidence.
Their case is falling apart so they are fishing for something else. This whole thing looks like Janet Reno’s tenure as AG in Florida. I wonder how many years and how many millions in legal fees will be expended before everyone is exonerated and the state slaps itself on the wrist. No matter. There will be big budgets between now and then and after all that’s what really matters.
No kidding. I’ll bet sales of tinfoil hats are up. ;)
I think the LEOs broke the bones just so they could pin it all on the blameless as the driven snow FLDS men. The FLDS men deserve medals for their upright behavior so far, only knocking up young girls who deserved it.
It’s like Islam. For some reason, polygamy also always seems to lead to the sexual use of male children by the powerful males in charge (those who can get multiple wives). In Islam, it is because the head male is given huge status, and less dominant (that is, younger, less wealthy males) have no status and will never get wives.
Some of these men then turn to homosexuality themselves, which is why this is so widespread in Muslim countries, and the powerful married males also begin to regard any weaker being as sexual prey. Abuse of male children by older relatives, including their own fathers, is practically the norm in most Muslim countries, and I wouldn’t be surprised to find that its the same in the FLDS groups.
From pediatric fracture estimates: on average, boys have a 42% chance of sustaining at least one fracture between the ages of 0 and 16 years. Girls have a 27% chance.
If these were (say) a hundred 16-yr old children with a 50/50 gender split we would expect 21+14 = 35 broken bones amongst them. Whether 41 is suspicious or not depends on the number of children, their age range and gender profile. Pediatric fractures are very different in severity and incidence to adult fractures.
What case are you referring to?
This is a custody review, not a civil or criminal case.
And in the custody review, the cultists' custody claims are looking very weak indeed.
Oh hardly. They already know that teen girls were raped. . .half of the girls either are or were pregnant. That in itself is enough to send all the adults away for a long time, as they either participated directly or ignored the abuse.
Of course not all fractures are born equal. There may be something skewed about these injuries. And my assumptions may be way wrong. But the bare fact of 41 fractures in 464 children is not on the face of it suspicious.
Interesting process. First decide what you know. Then look for the evidence.
BitBucket,
It must be terrible to be you. How can you possibly survive, thinking the worse about everyone who has a sense of responsibility. And at the same time, taking up for those who exhibit irresponsible behavior.
I hope you never need the help of anyone in authority. It could possibly kill you to have to accept it. And goes without saying, you will have no gratitude, only criticism.
This does explain why a number of the children were taken to the hospital, and their parents weren't being told why.
However, I wouldn't make too much of this. The legislature is grilling children's services officials, and the officials are telling them what they are doing. This is more of a report on how they are investigating rather than results of an investigation.
The main evidence is the number of pregnant teens, and the main thing the officials are doing now is waiting for the results of the DNA tests, so they can piece together a better picture of things from that.
Your brand of objective analysis has no place here. This is a morality play, and the FLDS are the bad guys. Get with the program.
Funny thing. When I was a kid, we were told to look up to police officers, they were people to be trusted. Now, we are told to fear them and assume they will twist evidence to bust you. Have the police changed? No, more like people are just more paranoid these days.
Actually it's not. Less and less are supporting the "rights" of the FLDS around here and are grudgingly saying maybe the State of Texas got it right. How big a case does CPS need to build to get you to have 2nd thoughts?
“Mothers who stayed with their children for two weeks after the raid launched a coordinated effort to stymie investigators, coaching their children to not answer questions, Cockerell said.
He said the women and children would gather into apparent family units, with the children referring to several women as their mother, then the “women switched children in these family units ... making it difficult.”
“When asked, women and children would change their names and ages,” he said.
The CPS report also said authorities “tried to use bracelets to identify children, but the women and children removed the bracelets or rubbed the wording off them.”
The report also said mothers at first refused to let the children undergo basic health screenings and that “many” teen girls declined to take pregnancy tests. “
Where else would someone find such united efforts among a group of mothers in these conditions?
Of all of the predictions of behavior that we would have made for a group of American moms under these conditions, I bet this would not have been among those predictions.
This is one of the saddest things that I have heard yet, just how deeply damaged are these women, is it too late to save them?
Considering that what they know is the evidence they have gathered so far, and that evidence would seem to indicate abuse of the girls occurred, it does seem pretty obvious to check for signs of abuse among the boys.
Are you suggesting they should ignore the evidence they have found so far?
I'm worried that the investigators would even mention the (perhaps atypically low) number of broken bones amongst the children. Are they merely responding to public queries with dry take-them or leave-them medical statistics, or are they trying to 'paint' the cult members as fiendish child-bone-breakers?
For your ping-ees
By a whole 4 minutes.
“I’m worried that the investigators would even mention the (perhaps atypically low) number of broken bones amongst the children. Are they merely responding to public queries with dry take-them or leave-them medical statistics, or are they trying to ‘paint’ the cult members as fiendish child-bone-breakers?”
The totals aren’t in yet.
“Although Cockerell didn’t elaborate on the broken bones, a report by his department’s Child Protective Services division said medical exams and interviews indicated “that at least 41 children have had broken bones in the past.”
“We do not have X-rays or complete medical information on many children so it is too early to draw any conclusions based on this information, but it is cause for concern and something we’ll continue to examine,” the CPS report said.”
It's hard to tell. All we have is the media's report on how the CPS workers responded to questions from the legislature.
I wouldn't doubt that the CPS is getting more than a bit tired of the FLDS and their lawyers trying to smear them any way they can, while also doing everything they can to obstruct their investigation.
That's part of the job for the CPS, but they're human, so it wouldn't be surprising for them to be a bit hostile toward the FLDS when they are questioned by the legislature.
Once again, the non-Mormon community attacks the upright, hardworking, family centered Mormons with scurrilous lies and Narvoo like attacks!
Well, honestly, it would help their case some if their leader Warren Jeffs wasn't in prison for being an accomplice to raping young girls.
It would also help quite a bit if so doggone many of their children weren't simply missing - there are only 17 teenaged boys compared to 53 teenaged girls.
And it would really be great if more than half of the underaged girls who have been removed weren't pregnant or previously delivered babies.
And the people who are showing up saying that they had their kids taken away when they were thrown out of the FLDS, plus the people who have left and are talking to the police and reporters about the abuse they've suffered at the hands of FLDS members... well, maybe if all of those people didn't exist, the public could be a bit more sympathetic.
The answer is yes they have.
When I was a kid the police could not take your property with out a trial. If you had $1000 cash on you the police did not care. If you had a very nice new car it was yours not yours till the police wanted it.
When I was a kid a search warrant was not issued based on anonymous phone calls but on a sworn and signed statement.
Thanks Ansell, I was wondering why the fracture count was so low. If they haven't finished counting yet then that would make sense. If the final count goes to ~80 fractures then that would be bang on the expectation value, given my limited picture of the childrens' demographic profile. /back of a fagpacket calculation
From pediatric fracture estimates: on average, boys have a 42% chance of sustaining at least one fracture between the ages of 0 and 16 years. Girls have a 27% chance.
Do these statistics say how the bones are broken? I'd bet a great many come from sports and other "play" activity. From what I've read, these children's activities consisted of scrubbing floors and other chores. Not many bones get broken scrubbing floors.
“Thanks Ansell, I was wondering why the fracture count was so low. If they haven’t finished counting yet then that would make sense. “
Reading the articles before you start with your defense would help on that score.
I’d be willing to bet the women are pretty deeply damaged, and as to whether they can be saved- good question, most that have left on their own or during other raids seem to be able to function- but maybe their will was stronger than others that are more compliant.
My sister-in-law had class with some of those that left FLDS in AZ a few years ago- she said the younger women were rapidly adapting to their new situation but she didn’t think the older women would adapt, I imagine some could.
“Mothers who stayed with their children for two weeks after the raid launched a coordinated effort to stymie investigators, coaching their children to not answer questions, Cockerell said.
He said the women and children would gather into apparent family units, with the children referring to several women as their mother, then the “women switched children in these family units ... making it difficult.”
“When asked, women and children would change their names and ages,” he said.
The CPS report also said authorities “tried to use bracelets to identify children, but the women and children removed the bracelets or rubbed the wording off them.”
_____________________________
Not to mention the obviously fake tears the “distraught” mothers employed during television interviews. Bunch of sickos.
In this case, the search warrant wasn't based on anonymous phone calls, it was based on the sworn affidavits of the Texas Rangers and what they witnessed when they went to check on the validity of the phone call.
Not in the source I cite. One can find percentage incidence of broken chins, broken legs etc as single data points from a simple internet search, but I couldn't find anything that gave an all-body profile OR a cause profile.
I would guess anecdotally that sports, slip/trip and falling from height (out of trees, off a swing etc) are the major sources of pediatric bone breakage.
I read the first warrant was based on phone calls from a girl who they cannot find who probably dose not exist about a man who has never lived on this property. If you have different information about the first warrant please post a link.
Interesting, in my own children; I had three girls and had two that had bone fractures ages 0-18. Higher than average.
Err, what are you on about?
What 'defence' are you referring to? I pointed out that 41 pediatric breakages out of 464 children was atypically low. And so it is.
Step away from the keyboard. You need to stop mashing the "Witchhunt" key right now.
I think it is likely the authorities were just making a report on what they are doing and the media decided it was a story. It may turn out to be a story or not depending on the outcome.
There case is falling apart?
Really? 60% of the teenage girls are or have been pregnant, and their case is falling apart?
I’d say someone is jumping to conclusions on making such bold statements.
Yes, that seems a sensible way of looking at it Tammy.
Well Goodnight all.
Don’t you know? Unless you are in the “string em all up right now and round up the mainline LDS folks while your at it” then you are defending the FLDS no matter how objective your statements are.
“Not to mention the obviously fake tears the “distraught” mothers employed during television interviews. Bunch of sickos.”
While watching another large “crocodile tears” scene that had a large number of women in it, I realized that it wasn’t just the fake tears and the dabbing at the eye.
What struck me was that there was no variation among the women, there wasn’t one or several of them heaving deep sobs, there wasn’t one or several of them wailing in loud uncontrollable cries, there was not a case of a woman running to a wild embrace by her friends because she was breaking and collapsing.
All of them had the same exact level of distress, all of them had the same exact level of emotional display, all of them shared the same timing when it came to a shared tear session or a recovery from that session.
Depends on what the fractures are... some are common, others are not... and some can only occur from pressures on the bones one would not expect to see a child or adult exposed to other than intentional abuse.
I openly admit I have not been following this thing closely, but I am begining to think that there are a group here on FR who are becoming like the David Westerfield defenders.. going to never believe that this sect has done anything wrong, no matter what facts may come about.
They may be exonerated.. but nothing that’s been reported so far points to this outcome. Time will tell.
Did someone mention fishing?
The investigation has been mishandled from the git go. Now CPS is leaking information to the press to justify their actions. It won't fly.
If CPS had any evidence of sexual abuse, they would have taken individuals into protective custody, and no one would object. But when they came in with a net, they are admitting they are engaging in a massive fishing expedition.
It is highly unlikely they will be able to justify their actions. The outcome of the June 5th hearings will be interesting.
“Their case is falling apart so they are fishing for something else.”
LOL! God, what an idiot.
I don't think it's that as much as it is questioning the legality of the whole thing to start with.
Carolyn
“Step away from the keyboard. You need to stop mashing the “Witchhunt” key right now.”
Pretty strong reaction to someone that merely pointed out that it would be useful for you to read the article first, before you start your defense.
Almost like a “witchhunt” reaction.
What legality? They got a warrant, and they executed it.
There’s been nothing illegal about whats gone on to date.
Some may not like the Judges decisions, but they haven’t acted outside the law.
“If you have different information about the first warrant please post a link.”
LOL!. Jeez, why is it no suprize these pervert-defending morons can’t ever do their own research? People who want to know facts do research. People who don’t, well, don’t.
There have been dozens of links posted that I know about. Probably dozens more as I don’t FReep too much.
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