Skip to comments.Saudi women had more rights at the time of the Romans than today
Posted on 05/03/2008 11:06:57 AM PDT by george76
Arab women had more rights at the time of the Romans than they have today. At that time, in fact, their capacity to conduct their own economic affairs was recognised, which is not true in Saudi Arabia today.
This is maintained by a female Saudi scholar, Hatoon al-Fassi, in a book entitled "Women In Pre-Islamic Arabia",
Barred from teaching at King Saud University in 2001, the scholar has examined the situation of Nabataea, a kingdom that at the beginning of the Christian era included parts of modern-day Jordan, Syria, and Saudi Arabia, and had its capital in Petra.
"We now live the worst status imaginable":
(Excerpt) Read more at asianews.it ...
Can you say Wahabi? (I knew you could)
Thank you for posting. An informative article and subject author that deserves more study. Bookmark.
It’s not about arab women—it’s about MUSLIM WOMEN!
And wherever Islam has gone women have lost - their lives, their bodies, their children their everything.
Islam is a nothing more than a sex cult of ideologically insane proportions feeding off the tribal and cultural intitutions of the areas they infest.
Seriously though, how many Saudi men complain that their wives shop too much?
No, we should simply ask Rev. Wright why the Saudis, who where the #1 african slave traders of all time, don't have their own race problem.
Here's a hint, Rev:
The Saudis preferred their own slaves castrated!
This was the case up until the rise of Islam. Mohammed’s first wife was a wealthy merchant (he married her for her money) who ruled the family with an iron fist. It’s probably the reason that misogyny is one of Islam’s core values.
You could also point out that until 1962, slavery was legal in Saudi Arabia.
Eh? I thought it was legal there until 1974?
It’s still the practice, just no longer the law of the land...
I wouldn’t doubt that, but I have seen proof of the other.
Slavery is still widely practiced in Saudi. Philipino and women from other SE Asian countries are recruited to work for wealthy families. They are then accused of theft, threatened with prosecution, and then forced to work for little or no money. There are thousands in this predicament in the Kingdom. Will a civil-rights fanatic like Jimi ibn Qarter speak out about this practice? The likelihood is zero. Who would then pay the light bill at the Qarter Anti-Israel and Pro-HAMAS Center in Atlanta?
Wasn’t Mrs Mohammed the First (of wives) a wealthy independent property owner? How many “Yes dears” later did the Angel Gabriel come along?
Arab nations went from leading in arts, culture and science until Islam. Islam is a fungus.
Did Arab tribes have the cultural beliefs that Muhammad codified in Islam, or did he come up with the wacky, anti-woman stuff on his stuff? I always assumed that he just took what already existed, and made it the law of God, but he was so crazy, he may have just taken his own miscogenistic beliefs and made them into a religion.
Did Arab tribes have the cultural beliefs that Muhammad codified in Islam, or did he come up with the wacky, anti-woman stuff on his own? I always assumed that he just took what already existed, and made it the law of God, but he was so crazy, he may have just taken his own miscogenistic beliefs and made them into a religion.
What a racist, Islamophobic article!
mohammad surely was listening to the hissings of that Serpent of Old in his cave.
The Demon mohamed in his fifties married a small child of nine years of age, Aisha, who was probably too young to have known what was happening to her, let alone have a say in the marriage and was one of nine simultaneous wives of mohamed when he died.
If Aisha was prototype of the Islamic woman, then pre-Islamic women had had superior basic rights to what Islam granted them.
And Iranian women had more rights at the beginning of the Carter administration than at the end of it.
No Saudi women were alive in Roman days because there wasn’t even a House of Saud until the 18th Century.
I've said it before and will say it again: Islam is the scourge of civilized man.
I hate to admit it, but the more I read about Islam the more correct I think the author was.
Don't tell John Kerry or he will try to start his own religion!
It's too awful to contemplate. And they control the world's oil?!!!
“Arab nations went from leading in arts, culture and science until Islam.”
You need to do some SERIOUS history studies.
There were NO “Arab nations” of any sort prior to Isalm and certainly no nationStates until very recently, circa 1800.
Arab culture(oxymoran in that Arabs were historically bandits and trashmongers and small tribal units)is the Islamic culture.
And they were most certainly not educated nor cultured nor productive, not then or now.
That Islam subjugated all cultures they encountered in their bloody conquest is a fact and that Islam is from Arabia is also a fact and this is where the confusion comes from.
You are confusing the indigeous Christian/Western Roman culture (or Persian or Brahminical/Hindu or Buddhist) that the Arabs stole/absorbed as they conquered and killed all who did not convert, with the propaganda about “Arab culture” pushed today in our wonderful “universities”.
North Africa/Judea/Anatolia(Turkey) was Christian and Roman/Greek 600+ years before the Arabs came.
The typical allusion about “Arab culture” is to medival Spain but the Muslims were as brutal there as anywhere they conquered, the quisling Jews not withstanding.
It was those Jewish writers/dhimmitudes that have given such positive patina to what the Muslims did to Jews and Christians. It seems that backstabers are the bain of all Godly folks, then and now.
“What a racist, Islamophobic article!”
There is no such thing as Islamophobia simply because there is NOTHING irrational about disgust and fear/weariness/ and knowledge that Islam is the enemy that means to destroy all of us Westerners/white folks.
Besides our culture IS better than any Arab culture.
Go get some aspirin and some water and get some relief from your delusions.
What Arab Civilization?
This letter was sent to Carly Fiorina, CEO of Hewlett Packard Corporation, in response to a speech given by her on September 26, 2001.
November 7, 2001
3000 Hanover Street
Palo Alto, CA 94304-1185
Dear Madame Fiorina:
It is with great interest that I read your speech delivered on September 26, 2001, titled “Technology, Business and Our way of Life: What’s Next” [sic]. I was particularly interested in the story you told at the end of your speech, about the Arab/Muslim civilization. As an Assyrian, a non-Arab, Christian native of the Middle East, whose ancestors reach back to 5000 B.C., I wish to clarify some points you made in this little story, and to alert you to the dangers of unwittingly being drawn into the Arabist/Islamist ideology, which seeks to assimilate all cultures and religions into the Arab/Islamic fold.
I know you are a very busy woman, but please find ten minutes to read what follows, as it is a perspective that you will not likely get from anywhere else. I will answer some of the specific points you made in your speech, then conclude with a brief perspective on this Arabist/Islamist ideology.
Arabs and Muslims appeared on the world scene in 630 A.D., when the armies of Muhammad began their conquest of the Middle East. We should be very clear that this was a military conquest, not a missionary enterprise, and through the use of force, authorized by a declaration of a Jihad against infidels, Arabs/Muslims were able to forcibly convert and assimilate non-Arabs and non-Mulsims into their fold. Very few indigenous communities of the Middle East survived this — primarily Assyrians, Jews, Armenians and Coptics (of Egypt).
Having conquered the Middle East, Arabs placed these communities under a Dhimmi (see the book Dhimmi, by Bat Ye’Or) system of governance, where the communities were allowed to rule themselves as religious minorities (Christians, Jews and Zoroastrian). These communities had to pay a tax (called a Jizzya in Arabic) that was, in effect, a penalty for being non-Muslim, and that was typically 80% in times of tolerance and up to 150% in times of oppression. This tax forced many of these communities to convert to Islam, as it was designed to do.
You state, “its architects designed buildings that defied gravity.” I am not sure what you are referring to, but if you are referring to domes and arches, the fundamental architectural breakthrough of using a parabolic shape instead of a spherical shape for these structures was made by the Assyrians more than 1300 years earlier, as evidenced by their archaeological record.
You state, “its mathematicians created the algebra and algorithms that would enable the building of computers, and the creation of encryption.” The fundamental basis of modern mathematics had been laid down not hundreds but thousands of years before by Assyrians and Babylonians, who already knew of the concept of zero, of the Pythagorean Theorem, and of many, many other developments expropriated by Arabs/Muslims (see History of Babylonian Mathematics, Neugebauer).
You state, “its doctors examined the human body, and found new cures for disease.” The overwhelming majority of these doctors (99%) were Assyrians. In the fourth, fifth, and sixth centuries Assyrians began a systematic translation of the Greek body of knowledge into Assyrian. At first they concentrated on the religious works but then quickly moved to science, philosophy and medicine. Socrates, Plato, Aristotle, Galen, and many others were translated into Assyrian, and from Assyrian into Arabic. It is these Arabic translations which the Moors brought with them into Spain, and which the Spaniards translated into Latin and spread throughout Europe, thus igniting the European Renaissance.
By the sixth century A.D., Assyrians had begun exporting back to Byzantia their own works on science, philosophy and medicine. In the field of medicine, the Bakhteesho Assyrian family produced nine generations of physicians, and founded the great medical school at Gundeshapur (Iran). Also in the area of medicine, (the Assyrian) Hunayn ibn-Ishaq’s textbook on ophthalmology, written in 950 A.D., remained the authoritative source on the subject until 1800 A.D.
In the area of philosophy, the Assyrian philosopher Job of Edessa developed a physical theory of the universe, in the Assyrian language, that rivaled Aristotle’s theory, and that sought to replace matter with forces (a theory that anticipated some ideas in quantum mechanics, such as the spontaneous creation and destruction of matter that occurs in the quantum vacuum).
One of the greatest Assyrian achievements of the fourth century was the founding of the first university in the world, the School of Nisibis, which had three departments, theology, philosophy and medicine, and which became a magnet and center of intellectual development in the Middle East. The statutes of the School of Nisibis, which have been preserved, later became the model upon which the first Italian university was based (see The Statutes of the School of Nisibis, by Arthur Voobus).
When Arabs and Islam swept through the Middle East in 630 A.D., they encountered 600 years of Assyrian Christian civilization, with a rich heritage, a highly developed culture, and advanced learning institutions. It is this civilization that became the foundation of the Arab civilization.
You state, “Its astronomers looked into the heavens, named the stars, and paved the way for space travel and exploration.” This is a bit melodramatic. In fact, the astronomers you refer to were not Arabs but Chaldeans and Babylonians (of present day south-Iraq), who for millennia were known as astronomers and astrologers, and who were forcibly Arabized and Islamized — so rapidly that by 750 A.D. they had disappeared completely.
You state, “its writers created thousands of stories. Stories of courage, romance and magic. Its poets wrote of love, when others before them were too steeped in fear to think of such things.” There is very little literature in the Arabic language that comes from this period you are referring to (the Koran is the only significant piece of literature), whereas the literary output of the Assyrians and Jews was vast. The third largest corpus of Christian writing, after Latin and Greek, is by the Assyrians in the Assyrian language (also called Syriac; see here.)
You state, “when other nations were afraid of ideas, this civilization thrived on them, and kept them alive. When censors threatened to wipe out knowledge from past civilizations, this civilization kept the knowledge alive, and passed it on to others.” This is a very important issue you raise, and it goes to the heart of the matter of what Arab/Islamic civilization represents. I reviewed a book titled How Greek Science Passed to the Arabs, in which the author lists the significant translators and interpreters of Greek science. Of the 22 scholars listed, 20 were Assyrians, 1 was Persian and 1 an Arab. I state at the end of my review: “The salient conclusion which can be drawn from O’Leary’s book is that Assyrians played a significant role in the shaping of the Islamic world via the Greek corpus of knowledge. If this is so, one must then ask the question, what happened to the Christian communities which made them lose this great intellectual enterprise which they had established. One can ask this same question of the Arabs. Sadly, O’Leary’s book does not answer this question, and we must look elsewhere for the answer.” I did not answer this question I posed in the review because it was not the place to answer it, but the answer is very clear, the Christian Assyrian community was drained of its population through forced conversion to Islam (by the Jizzya), and once the community had dwindled below a critical threshold, it ceased producing the scholars that were the intellectual driving force of the Islamic civilization, and that is when the so called “Golden Age of Islam” came to an end (about 850 A.D.).
Islam the religion itself was significantly molded by Assyrians and Jews (see Nestorian Influence on Islam and Hagarism: the Making of the Islamic World).
Arab/Islamic civilization is not a progressive force, it is a regressive force; it does not give impetus, it retards. The great civilization you describe was not an Arab/Muslim accomplishment, it was an Assyrian accomplishment that Arabs expropriated and subsequently lost when they drained, through the forced conversion of Assyrians to Islam, the source of the intellectual vitality that propelled it. What other Arab/Muslim civilization has risen since? What other Arab/Muslim successes can we cite?
You state, “and perhaps we can learn a lesson from his [Suleiman] example: It was leadership based on meritocracy, not inheritance. It was leadership that harnessed the full capabilities of a very diverse population that included Christianity, Islamic, and Jewish traditions.” In fact, the Ottomans were extremely oppressive to non-Muslims. For example, young Christian boys were forcefully taken from their families, usually at the age of 8-10, and inducted into the Janissaries, (yeniceri in Turkish) where they were Islamized and made to fight for the Ottoman state. What literary, artistic or scientific achievements of the Ottomans can we point to? We can, on the other hand, point to the genocide of 750,000 Assyrians, 1.5 million Armenians and 400,000 Greeks in World War One by the Kemalist “Young Turk” government. This is the true face of Islam.
Arabs/Muslims are engaged in an explicit campaign of destruction and expropriation of cultures and communities, identities and ideas. Wherever Arab/Muslim civilization encounters a non-Arab/Muslim one, it attempts to destroy it (as the Buddhist statues in Afghanistan were destroyed, as Persepolis was destroyed by the Ayotollah Khomeini). This is a pattern that has been recurring since the advent of Islam, 1400 years ago, and is amply substantiated by the historical record. If the “foreign” culture cannot be destroyed, then it is expropriated, and revisionist historians claim that it is and was Arab, as is the case of most of the Arab “accomplishments” you cited in your speech. For example, Arab history texts in the Middle East teach that Assyrians were Arabs, a fact that no reputable scholar would assert, and that no living Assyrian would accept. Assyrians first settled Nineveh, one of the major Assyrian cities, in 5000 B.C., which is 5630 years before Arabs came into that area. Even the word ‘Arab’ is an Assyrian word, meaning “Westerner” (the first written reference to Arabs was by the Assyrian King Sennacherib, 800 B.C., in which he tells of conquering the “ma’rabayeh” — Westerners. See The Might That Was Assyria, by H. W. F. Saggs).
Even in America this Arabization policy continues. On October 27th a coalition of seven Assyrian and Maronite organizations sent an official letter to the Arab American Institute asking it to stop identifying Assyrians and Maronites as Arabs, which it had been deliberately doing.
There are minorities and nations struggling for survival in the Arab/Muslim ocean of the Middle East and Africa (Assyrians, Armenians, Coptics, Jews, southern Sudanese, Ethiopians, Nigerians...), and we must be very sensitive not to unwittingly and inadvertently support Islamic fascism and Arab Imperialism, with their attempts to wipe out all other cultures, religions and civilizations. It is incumbent upon each one of us to do our homework and research when making statements and speeches about these sensitive matters.
I hope you found this information enlightening.
Thank you for your consideration.
Actually... they weren’t exactly “leading”, either. What they had was a lot of knowledge that was lost with the collapse of the Western Roman Empire and that they’d begged, borrowed, or stolen from cultures further to the East. Almost none of their vaunted cultural, artistic or scientific knowledge was actually developed by their culture. Algebra was stolen from the Hindus; mosaics were stolen from the Greeks, their medical science was stolen from the Chinese and Hindus... And so on.
The Arabic/Islamics took all this stuff, filed the numbers off, and passed it out as “their inventions”. They also wrote great works about their supposed developments that turned out not to be true (much like the bragging on Egyptian carvings, come to think of it).
Later medieval European chroniclers took what the Islamic/Arabic scholars told them as the honest truth, and that’s how it’s recorded in Western history.
*Eastern* history tells a *very* different tale.
In case you’re wondering why Islam seems stuck in the 13th or 14th Centuries, it’s because it is. They annoyed their neighbors by decapitating their ambassador and then sending the head back home in a bag with a “whatcha gonna do about it” note.
Ghengis Khan was greatly displeased and showed them what he was going to do about it. In the process, thanks to both Mongol thoroughness and the true stupidity of classical Arabic combat traditions, all the leading lights, smartest and brightest of the culture went out and got themselves killed off.
Islam is the most backward religion in the world.
not wa habi — i s l a mmm
Ah, Hulegu Khan was a good egg...
Thanks for the info.
I am aware of all that data but did not want to go into such detail in my original post as the historical error posted was more glaring than that much detail would resolve.
Good to know that there are other folks on FR that have such in-depth historical perspective,
Thanks — it’s really good to know you as well!
If people want on or off this list, please let me know.
Just hope for her sake she’s not in saudi arabia.
Yes. It is standard Islamic apologetics to claim that Mohammed improved the status of women in Arabia, for example, by reducing the maximum permissible number of wives to 4. This woman could easily find herself in prison for what she has written.
Dead is more like it.
Which would be worse?
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