Skip to comments.Woman recalls life in polygamist sect (YFZ/fLDS Daily Thread - 5/4/08)
Posted on 05/04/2008 9:18:32 AM PDT by MizSterious
(Excerpt) Read more at azstarnet.com ...
Colorado woman's (Laura Chapman) story of abuse in fLDS, letter from fLDS mothers to Utah governor, more on fashion, according to UT, "few answers in Texas", how families are torn apart by fLDS, Utah gives TX hints on handling of fLDS kids, reprint of TX law professor's assertion that raid was correct and legal, discussion on blood atonement with links, Polygamy's undergrond railroad, "Mormon Manson," comparisons between YFZ and Cold Creek, fairly complete listing of child child custody legal procedure, common pediatric fractures, look at how fLDS acquired land for compount using fraud in 2004
5/2 thread, with articles on:
Utah officials don't want federal help, feds claim they're stymied in probes of fLDS, residents of UT and AZ want crackdowns, home schooling for sect children, burden of proof high in such cases, kids' religious needs, older boys, not adults may be source of abuse of boys, Bishop's Record (pdf) list of YFZ families, Dr. Phil opines, warrant canceled for AZ man originally charged with molesting "Sarah," protesters supporting fLDS mothers show up at NBA game, letter from fLDS mothers claims rights violated, law professor says state correct to remove children from ranch, excerpt from "On the Lam with Warren Jeffs."
5/1 thread, with articles on:
FLDS doctor denies abuse, fLDS petitions court for return of children, denial of abuse of boys, commentary by Marci Hamilton (constitutional law expert), TX senator wants more info on YFZ, LDS response to situation, new evidence on abuse, NY Voodoo sex abuse case
4/30 thread, with articles on:
Investigations into fLDS government contracts, new compound built at 4 Corners area, strains on CPS capacity, Shurtleff & Reid agree to work together, interview with mothers in Amarillo, Colorado City fLDS watching events in Texas, NM removes 4 children from non-fLDS cult compound, sexual and physical injuries listed, proposed AZ bill would shield children of polygamists, Canadians want action on polygamists, fLDS denies child abuse, fLDS claims children have brittle bone disease, articles on brittle bone disease
4/29 thread with articles on:
"Lost" boys found, cult children statistics, more on WE documentary, sect doctors silent on abuse question, legal news and details, woman recalls life in sect, children's diet, Texans chip in to help, children at one shleter think they're all siblings, sect placement marriages "diabolical," sect threatens lawsuit, questions DNA tests might answer, teen mother gives birth (it's a boy)
4/28 thread with articles on:
Criminal charges urged for YFZ, new "prophet" film, debate over legalities of raid, Bountiful, BC fLDS group, reason in religious beliefs, former fLDS member shares insights, more on the Short Creek raid, documentary about group on WE TV.
4/27 thread with articles on:
Gene disorders in group, child custody processes, appeal to Gov. Perry, unusual way of life in YFZ, possibility of children held at YFZ whose parents were forced out, sheriff says authorities had spy inside sect.
4/26 thread with articles on:
Cost of care for the children of the sect, charges that two kids might be missing, how members of the sect dress, court rejects requests of mothers to stay with children, appeals court cancels hearing, Canadian involved in sect, culture shock for kids, oil drillers last laugh, possible involvement in human trafficking and drugs at Colorado City, Rep. Kay Granger's request to investigate financial ties to USG
4/25 thread with aritcles on:
Courts allowing state to place children in foster homes, legal challenges to the raid, beliefs on polygamy, protests against the raid and removal of children, Warren Jeff's appeal, portions of the Texas Family Code4/24 thread with articles on:
Seized polygamous sect kids face tough adjustment, articles on how and where the children were placed, Carolyn Jessup on Canadian children possibly at the ranch, legal aid group challenges judge, interview with Benjamin Bistline, 40 women choose to go to safe house instead of back to cult, 25 girls claimed to be adults, now found to be minors.
As always, for the sake of orderliness (and to prevent the pulling of threads and/or messages), let's do try to stay on topic and polite. You can't have a flame war if you don't take the bait.
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I do not run a pinglist, but you can freepmail Politicalmom and request that you be added to her FLDS Eldorado Legal Case Ping List.
Daily thread ping!
Polygamists, government bureaucrats and social service workers will converge at the Dixie Center on Thursday for a town hall forum, put on each year by the Utah and Arizona Attorney Generals' Safety Net Committee. This year, organizers expect heightened interest.
"Obviously, because so many of the people are from Colorado City and Hildale, because they went to Eldorado," said Jane Irvine, the community outreach director for the Arizona Attorney General's Office. "I think that's all the more reason that people want to have this town hall, to try and answer questions and continue to have the dialogue."
A few Texas child welfare workers plan to attend, said Paul Murphy, the Safety Net coordinator for the Utah Attorney General's Office.
"We want for them to answer questions, and also ask questions and learn from what we've been doing here," he said.
This is the fifth year the summit has been held. It started when a group of plural wives crashed a 2003 summit on "the polygamy problem," demanding to be heard. That led to the creation of the Safety Net Committee, composed of people from Utah and Arizona's polygamous communities, representatives from government agencies, nonprofit social service groups and others, to reach out to help victims of abuse and neglect in closed societies.
Last month's raid in Texas, which resulted in 464 children from the FLDS Church's YFZ Ranch being placed state protective custody, has upset many.
"I think that because we're talking about children, families and abuse issues, emotions will be high my emotions will be high," said Joyce Steed, a member of the Centennial Park, Ariz., community. "My hope is we're getting the message out there that Utah and Arizona have been working with plural family communities, and they've been having a successful interaction."
Security has also been heightened for the event, which features Utah Attorney General Mark Shurtleff and Arizona Attorney General Terry Goddard.
Before the Texas raid, the theme of this year's summit was "media and polygamy." It's something many from polygamous community have had painful, first-hand experience dealing with.
"In the media, our lifestyle and beliefs get painted as abusers and people who commit welfare fraud," said Steed. "I don't think all media portrays it that way. My concern is we really need to separate the lifestyle from the actions of individuals."
Murphy, a former TV news reporter, said it is frustrating for the news media as well.
"I was always frustrated in trying to tell the story of polygamists because they rarely wanted to be involved in telling their story," he said. "There was a tension from the beginning from people asking questions and those who were being asked the questions. Even the most thoughtful reporters, when they would come into Colorado City and Hildale, there were these images of children fleeing from the cameras."
Isolation and secrecy lead people to suspect the worst, Murphy said.
"That's why we've been trying to open up the dialogue so people can know the good and the bad not just the bad," he said.
The Centennial Park Action Committee, a pro-polygamy group, insists that one way to end all the isolation and secrecy is to legalize polygamy.
"Right now, you can't tell why so many plural families are closed and secretive. Is it because it's a felony and they're protecting their families or is it because there's some sinister activity taking place? The grand majority are just trying to protect their families," said Steed.
Polygamy is prohibited by the Utah and Arizona constitutions and bigamy is a felony. Mohave County, Ariz., Supervisor Buster Johnson spoke out against decriminalization in a statement he issued on the town hall.
"It is past time for Arizona to do the right thing," Johnson wrote. "Sitting on panels with those who are violating the law is a slap in the face to the children who have been abused and will continued to be abuse (sic) because of inaction and apathy by elected officials."
The Arizona Attorney General's Office said it remains focused on enforcing laws, especially crimes of abuse within polygamous communities.
"We haven't really entertained any change in the law regarding the piece in the constitution prohibiting polygamy," said Irvine.
The Utah Attorney General's Office said anyone seeking a change in laws has to work through the state legislatures.
"The polygamous communities have to deal strongly with the problems of child abuse and domestic violence," Murphy said.
It would most certainly be an uphill battle, but Steed remains hopeful.
"We are citizens that want to uphold the laws, protect our children and raise our families," she said.
Source: Deseret News.
FReepmail to be added to the FLDS Eldorado Legal Case Ping List
By Ben Winslow
The isolated nature of the compound near Eldorado may have made the heavy response by law enforcement necessary. Then, when Texas child protective services workers saw what appeared to be pregnant teens, Shurtleff said, they had a duty to remove them and investigate further.
"As far as all the kids, I don't know. What else could they do?" he wondered aloud during a Deseret News interview. "My gut feeling is they shouldn't have. They've gone too far."
The raid in Texas that put 464 children in state custody is a complicated situation for Shurtleff and his counterpart, Arizona Attorney General Terry Goddard. They have extended an olive branch to polygamous communities with one hand while clasping a pair of handcuffs in the other.
The attorneys general have been reaching out to polygamous communities to help abuse victims and trying to end the isolation of the closed societies. At the same time, they have continued to pursue criminal investigations against some of those very people.
Their approach has been both praised and condemned.
In interviews with the Deseret News, the attorneys general spoke at length about the aftermath of the raid in Texas. They believe their actions in prosecuting crimes within polygamy forced the FLDS to seek refuge in Texas, setting the stage for what is happening now.
Shurtleff and Goddard defend their approach of prosecuting abuse and fraud crimes within the closed societies, rather than polygamy itself, which has constitutional implications.
"It's never been that I choose to ignore a felony crime in the state, it's always been a matter of resources," Shurtleff said.
Where Texas has 464 children in state custody, Shurtleff counters that a similar approach would flood the Utah system with thousands of children in foster care and thousands of polygamist parents in prison.
"If we start prosecuting polygamy just for polygamy, where do we stop?" he said. "The state of Utah, let alone my office, does not have the resources."
That's not how some see it. Anti-polygamy activists have accused Arizona and Utah of being too lenient and turning a blind eye to abuse.
Goddard concedes that prosecuting polygamy itself may not even stand up in court under constitutional claims of freedom of religion and privacy rights. Instead, the prosecutors say they focus on abuse, domestic violence and welfare fraud.
"I do think we've taken the right approach," Goddard said. "It's not spectacular and it's not headline grabbing, but we've changed attitudes that existed in the state after the Short Creek raid (in 1953). What we're interested in is crimes against children."
A Texas-like raid on the FLDS enclaves of Hildale, Utah, and Colorado City, Ariz., is not likely to happen. Goddard said Texas laws regarding child custody are drastically different from his state's.
"Why didn't we sweep in and pick up all the kids? It's really a silly question when you boil it down," he said. "Our law wouldn't permit it. We have such a different situation from Eldorado."
Utah has cracked down on crimes within polygamy, securing convictions against polygamist Tom Green, members of the Kingston group and former Hildale police officer Rodney Holm.
FLDS leader Warren Jeffs was convicted last year by Washington County prosecutors on charges of rape as an accomplice, accusing him of performing a marriage between a 14-year-old girl and her 19-year-old cousin.
Jeffs is now in an Arizona jail, facing similar charges accusing him of performing more child-bride marriages. Mohave County, Ariz., prosecutors have also secured sex crimes convictions against six FLDS men accused of taking underage brides.
Beyond the criminal convictions, Utah and Arizona moved forward with a crackdown on the FLDS Church, seizing control of its real estate holdings arm, the United Effort Plan Trust, placing the Colorado City School District in financial receivership and disciplining police officers in the border towns.
"One of the best things you can say about Arizona and Utah is (the FLDS) went to Texas to get away from us," Goddard said.
The Utah Attorney General's Office has had special investigators, dubbed "polygamy czars," look into crimes within closed societies. Still, prosecutions are few and far between. Authorities say that is because witnesses and evidence are difficult to secure.
Goddard said he intends to keep the pressure up.
"We've investigated thoroughly every complaint we get, and we don't hesitate to pull a kid out of the house where there is abuse," he said.
Both Utah and Arizona's attorneys general provided information about the FLDS Church to Texas authorities. Shurtleff testified before the Texas Legislature and encouraged lawmakers there to raise their marriage age in response to the FLDS Church moving in. But both Shurtleff and Goddard said they did not know the raid was coming.
Texas child protective services officials have said in court that the children on the YFZ Ranch were growing up in a culture that lends itself to abuse. Shurtleff said he can't reach the same conclusion.
"Let's say you're a 6-month-old girl, no evidence whatsoever of any abuse. They're simply saying, 'You, in this culture, may grow up to be a child bride when you're 14. Therefore we're going to remove you now when you're 6 months old,"' he said. "Or, 'You're a 6-month-old boy; 25, 30 years, 40 years from now you're going to be a predator, so we're going to take you away now."'
Rod Parker, a Salt Lake attorney acting as a spokesman for the FLDS, said he can agree with Shurtleff on one point.
"What Texas has done here is beyond the pale. I agree with Mark that the circumstances don't call for that kind of heavy-handed action," he said.
But Parker criticizes Shurtleff, accusing him of feeding a prejudice against the FLDS by making statements about the people as a whole.
"His role is to investigate and prosecute crimes and not to malign societies. This is a vulnerable group," Parker said. "He knows it. He would never go out and make these kind of negative remarks about any other group except polygamists."
The raid on the YFZ Ranch was prompted by someone claiming to be a 16-year-old named "Sarah," who said she was pregnant and in an abusive, polygamous marriage to a man named Dale Barlow. When Texas authorities responded, they said they found other signs of abuse. A judge ordered all of the children removed from the ranch and placed in state protective custody.
Authorities have dropped the warrant against Barlow, who lives in Colorado City, and are investigating whether the call was a hoax perpetrated by a Colorado woman with a history of making phony abuse calls. Both Utah and Arizona are investigating similar calls.
The backlash from the Texas raid may hinder investigations into crimes within polygamy in Utah and Arizona.
"We've done a lot to establish trust and a lifeline," Goddard said.
He pointed to the Safety Net Committee, a group composed of polygamists, social service workers and government bureaucrats working to end isolation and combat abuse and neglect in polygamy.
"If suspicion and hostility reasserts itself, we may get cut off. If it works out well, we'll be able to at least do some damage control and make it clear that Utah and Arizona aren't Texas," Goddard said.
Calls to a domestic violence hotline set up to deal with abuse situations in plural families have increased, but the attorneys general fear that an abuse victim may now be reluctant to come forward for fear of triggering another raid.
"They want us to punish the guy who hurt them or the guy who ordered it, either Warren Jeffs or their husband," Shurtleff said. "They don't want their whole family impacted. They still love their siblings."
Shurtleff confirmed he has ongoing investigations into the FLDS Church, the Kingston polygamous family and other groups.
"We're hopeful there may be some evidence that came out of the temple," Goddard said of the raid on the YFZ Ranch, where the FLDS built their such edifice.
Shurtleff said he hopes federal authorities will also share evidence seized from the car that Jeffs was riding in when he was arrested outside Las Vegas in 2006. The FBI has said it is willing to cooperate where it can on evidence seized.
Federal task force
U.S. Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid's very public comments that he was "embarrassed" for Utah and Arizona, accusing them of doing nothing about polygamy-related crimes, infuriated the attorneys general.
"Harry Reid is full of crap," Shurtleff fumed in a TV interview.
The two states fired off a four-page letter. Goddard went so far as to send a foot-thick package of documents to Reid's office, detailing the polygamy-related convictions and victim-outreach efforts. Shurtleff said they buried the hatchet when Reid called, saying: "I want to kiss and make up."
Reid said he would push for a federal task force to investigate polygamy-related crimes, something Shurtleff and Goddard support.
"All is forgiven if he will help us get active federal involvement in cases that they can investigate," Goddard said.
Utah U.S. Attorney Brett Tolman said he did not think a federal task force was necessary, since the majority of the crimes being investigated were state-level offenses. Tolman revealed to the Deseret News that he and the FBI have attempted to build a Mafia-type RICO (Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations Act) case against the FLDS Church and Jeffs, but it has not been successful because of a lack of witnesses or hard evidence.
Shurtleff said Reid pledged to the attorneys general that he would get them in contact with top-tier Justice Department officials. Shurtleff said he is still waiting for that phone call.
Source: Deseret News.
The Cult of Mormonism continues to destroy lives. Jesus said to watch for False Prophets in the endtimes.
Pray for W and Our Freedom Fighters
May 4, 2008
By Valerie Richardson - If Utah Attorney General Mark Shurtleff has heard it once, he's heard it 100 times: Utah and Arizona should have conducted their own Texas-style anti-polygamy raid years ago.
After all, the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints resided for nearly a century on the Utah-Arizona border before building a compound in Eldorado, Texas.
And that, says Mr. Shurtleff, is the point. The FLDS didn't suddenly relocate three years ago on a whim it was driven out by law-enforcement crackdowns in Utah and Arizona targeting corruption and sex abuse in polygamist communities.
"We can document that they wouldn't be in Texas if we hadn't cracked down on them," said Mr. Shurtleff, a Republican. "Their move to Texas was a direct response to us telling them we wouldn't tolerate incest, crimes against children or domestic violence.
"As soon as they saw we were serious," he said, "they started buying land in Texas."
Excerpt. Read the rest at source: Washington Times.
Polygamist paternity: Nevada man drives 1,200 miles for FLDS DNA test
|By Christopher Smart
The Salt Lake Tribune
Salt Lake Tribune
|Article Last Updated:04/22/2008 11:28:10 AM MDT|
|Updated: 11:26 AM- EL DORADO, Texas -- A 32-year-old Nevada man arrived at the courthouse here today to provide a DNA sample to Texas authorities determining paternity of children seized from the FLDS polygamous sect earlier this month.
David J. Williams said he is a former member of the Fundamentalist Latter Day Saints and has three sons currently held in state custody in San Angelo. The boys -- Parley, 9; Jacob, 7; and Teral, 5 -- were among the 437 children rounded up when Texas law officers raided the sect's YFZ Ranch.
Williams, who left the FLDS three and a half years ago for reasons he would not discuss, called the raid -- triggered by claims of sexual abuse and under-age marriages on West Texas compound -- "an injustice" perpetrated by "unhonorable bastards."
Asked why he had driven 1,200 miles from his Nevada home -- he would not provide a specific town -- Williams countered: "What honorable father and parent would not give his all to protect the innocence of their children and family."
He insisted there is no abuse of children on the ranch. "These children are very much loved and cared for," Williams said, adding that he thought much of the reason for the raid was bias against the beliefs of the sect.
He brought with him a photo album of his children and wife, but he was noncommittal when asked if he intended to see custody of his boys.
"I call upon America to aid me in this effort for justice," Williams said.
Texas authorities this week have launched an effort to conduct DNA screenings of children, mothers and fathers to determine family ties. Parents who do not provide DNA samples risk being held in contempt of court, authorities say.
The samples will be processed by the Laboratory Corp. of America at a cost to the state of Texas of more than $50,000. It is estimated results will not be available for at least 30 says.
-- Tribune reporter Brooke Adams contributed to this story
Source: The Salt Lake Tribune.
FLDS children adapt old ways to new homes
|By Julia Lyon, Brooke Adams and Nate Carlisle
The Salt Lake Tribune
|Article Last Updated:05/04/2008 02:31:45 AM MDT|
|AMARILLO, Texas - Now living hundreds of miles away from their rural Texas homes, some children at the center of the largest child abuse case in U.S. history are asking to bake bread.
They want a wheat grinder and a place to plant a garden. They want to pray twice a day - sometimes with siblings, sometimes all together. And when the spirit moves them, they want to sing.
"They sing very beautifully," said Delma Trejo, executive director of The Ark Assessment Center and Emergency Shelter for Youth in Corpus Christi.
All over Texas, from Amarillo to Corpus Christi, the 464 children removed from a polygamous sect's West Texas ranch are holding onto old ways even as they are nudged into a new life.
The children were removed a month ago from the YFZ Ranch in Eldorado, owned by the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, and placed in 16 group shelters and foster homes.
The facilities range from those where 90-day stays are typical to the privately funded Hendrick Home for Children in Abilene, where the average stay is seven to 10 years with support through college.
Texas Child Protective Services (CPS) initially said it would place siblings together, but acknowledges that hasn't happened in every family.
Minors with children have gone to the Seton Home in San Antonio, which on average takes in 85 girls and 80 babies a year. Older boys have gone to Cal Farley's Boys Ranch in Amarillo.
The residential pay rate for a basic facility is $38.59 per day per child - which is partly why some facilities are welcoming donations. The rate for an emergency shelter is $106.22 per day.
Under Texas law, parents are allowed to visit their children in state custody. Mary Walker, a spokeswoman for the Department of Family and Protective Services, said supervised visitation is being arranged for mothers.
And fathers? "I believe that in some cases that is being allowed, if they have been identified as the fathers," she said.
But that is happening too slowly for some parents' attorneys. "That's been incredibly difficult since [CPS has] provided names but not contact information for the caseworkers," said Polly O'Toole, a Dallas attorney.
Developing trust: Meanwhile, the children are settling into their new, if temporary, homes.
Directors at some facilities shared general and specific descriptions of how they are accommodating the religious and cultural differences of the FLDS children.
Televisions have been covered up or kept off. Walls have been repainted to cover up hues of red, a color the FLDS consider sacred. And activities are being kept simple.
"We're not hiding our culture, but we're certainly sensitive to theirs," said Ed Knight, president of the Presbyterian Children's Homes and Services. "It's a very slow process of developing trust, but we're not having difficulties."
For now, the children are being kept apart from other youth.
"They are not interacting with the other children," Knight said. "We're limiting the number of our own staff that are interacting with them. We're taking it slow and easy."
The children also are being shielded from media, who have come from across the world to track the raid on the polygamous sect in Texas.
"They just deserve privacy like every other foster child on earth," said Charee Godwin-Smith, director of development at the Presbyterian Home for Children in Amarillo. "You don't want to walk outside and have news cameras in your face."
Natural foods, traditional games: Getting into a routine is the priority.
At the Methodist Children's Home in Waco, the children rise around 7 a.m., eat breakfast and do a few chores such as making their beds and cleaning, according to a recent schedule.
Accustomed to a natural, healthy diet, the children at The Ark in Corpus Christi prefer whole milk, pure vanilla and unsweetened cereal. They've asked to make smoothies of almonds, water, honey and olive oil.
"The children are beginning to eat more now that they are becoming more comfortable at the Home," said Bryan Mize, spokesman for Methodist Children's Home.
For group activities, children at the home prefer kickball, jump-rope, tag, and arts and crafts. At two Presbyterian Children's Homes, in Waxahachie and Amarillo, children have been given chalk, crayons and Etch A Sketches and are participating an hour a day in educational games as part of assessing literacy, Knight said.
Mize also said children are being allowed to worship, if they choose, every day, in their "home" on campus.
Boys ranch: The 72 boys living at Cal Farley's Boys Ranch have come to a place known for giving troubled or at-risk kids a new lease on childhood, but the ranch has never been involved in something this monumental.
The FLDS boys' arrival is "unprecedented," President Dan Adams said. "There's no rule book to go by."
The ranch was already caring for about 260 children, including a handful of girls. Adams said the ranch is licensed to care for more than 400 children, and space and resources have not yet been a problem.
The 1,100-acre spread, 36 miles northeast of Amarillo, is part cattle ranch, part school and part resort. It has its own police; its fences are designed to cordon cattle, not people. But if a child wanted to flee, there would be nowhere to go.
It offers perks, from competitive sports to fishing and climbing and conventional ranch work. Boys Ranch has rodeo livestock and holds a Labor Day rodeo, where students rope and ride for a crowd of 5,000.
The FLDS boys eat, play and live in ranch-style homes apart from the other youth, Adams said. They are excused from the nondenominational Christian church services on Sundays, but otherwise have access to the same opportunities as the other youth.
Texas officials are still trying to figure out how to handle the FLDS children's education. The sect ran a private school at the YFZ Ranch that used a modified home schooling curriculum.
Texas education officials expect to provide the facilities with tools to assess the children's academic levels by this week. Some children may be placed in public schools, which will be in session for another month; others could attend school at shelters.
The fact the children have missed nearly a month of school concerns education officials, but they take their lead from Child Protective Services, a spokeswoman said.
"One of the other things we have to be concerned about is their emotional well-being," said Suzanne Marchman, a Texas Education Agency spokeswoman. "There's a point at which their educational input is secondary."
David Miller, executive director of Hendrick Home, said children there are typically placed in public schools and, during the summer, go on field trips. On the calendar right now: a 17-day cruise along the Gulf Coast, with stops in Honduras and Mexico, and a leadership camp in Arkansas.
"We may have unusual circumstances here we'll have to work with CPS on," he said.
"Every day . . . an inspiration": Most facilities said they've had few issues with the children.
"We have seen very normal things, a few tears. We've seen some anger on the part of one," Knight said. "The children are clustering together and supporting one another. It's nothing out of the ordinary."
Said Miller: "I do not know of one child at Hendrick Home that is having any particular issues that are troublesome. Every child I know of is very warm, receptive, loving. Every day is an inspiration."
The FLDS parents, Miller said, can "rest well at night knowing we have a very loving house staff and administration with five and six layers of supervision, 24/7. We know how to take care of children and how to do it well."
Source: The Salt Lake Tribune.
It would be so nice if someone would post links to the other FR FLDS threads on the Daily FLDS thread.
How about if you start a new FLDS thread that you post a link to it over here on the daily thread?
Jail takes its toll on polygamist leader’s authority
The FLDS argument will not hold up
Would you put me on your short FLDS Daily Thread ping list.
I just want one ping a day to the daily FLDS thread if possible.
I appreciate you posting all the daily FLDS media articles on one thread.
Links are welcome, but I don’t think I really want to take on the task myself. I already spend quite a bit of time gathering material for the daily thread.
Sure thing, that is if my memory holds out. (They say the memory is one of the first three things to go...I forget what the other two are....)
And by the way, I really appreciate the articles you add to the thread. You find some good stuff!
"I do think we've taken the right approach," Goddard said. "It's not spectacular and it's not headline grabbing, but we've changed attitudes that existed in the state after the Short Creek raid (in 1953). What we're interested in is crimes against children."
Interesting. That's the indirect method of prosecution they used to get Al Capone, i.e. tax evasion.
"By the end of the 1920s, Capone had gained the attention of the Federal Bureau of Investigation following his being placed on the Chicago Crime Commission's "public enemies" list. Although never successfully convicted of racketeering charges, Capone's criminal career ended in 1931, when he was indicted and convicted by the federal government for income tax evasion."
Don’t feel like looking for it, but in one of the earlier Flds threads when someone mentioned welfare fraud I brought up Al Capone and getting him on tax evasion. Wasn’t what they wanted him for, but it worked and was effective.
from the May 5, 2008 edition
PHOENIX - It was a showdown, of sorts, over how far states should go to keep tabs on the Fundamentalist Church of Latter Day Saints, the group known to endorse multiple wives for men and motherhood for underage girls. In a public spat, officials from Arizona and Utah squared off last week against a US senator who suggested that the two states, home to FLDS communities, should follow the more interventionist approach of Texas in cracking down on the breakaway Mormon sect.
At the end of it all, the wrangling may well result in federal involvement in investigating the FLDS, which numbers more than 10,000 and has compounds in several Western states, Canada, and Mexico. But it also underscores why Arizona and Utah have moved with caution in dealing with the FLDS, compared with Texas' decision last month to take temporary custody of all the children living at the group's Yearning for Zion ranch in the wake of abuse complaints.
Excerpt. Read the rest at source: The Christian Science Monitor.
I wonder if half-a** shurtleff hasn't got a few women stashed somewhere himself.
Ah, I see the government’s plan. Just don’t marry the ladies and you can sleep with as many as you like.
By the way, she was 14 working on a wedding dress - she didn’t leave until she was 18...
So by her own admission she ‘wasn’t forced into a marriage with an older man against her will’.
So by her own admission she wasnt forced into a marriage with an older man against her will.
Legally, her consent is irrelevant. It's called statutory rape. And if it is a polygamous "marriage", it's not a legal marriage, therefore there is no consent to be given by the parents of the minor. String the perp up with Warren, maybe they will get married to each other. Who knows?
One of the few
I've been trying to do that..thanks for the reminder.
I was just going over the Bishop’s List. There were less than 200 hundred children listed as living at R17 (YFZ Ranch) in March 2007. I wonder where the other 250+ kids came from — they all couldn’t be new infants. Where are their parents?
And, is this why the Judge would not just give those kids to whomever "claimed" to be parents?
BTW, are you able to compile a chart that makes more sense than trying to read that pdf file?
Dang, when I try to reply I get “requested document not on this server.” FR’s having trouble today!
“So by her own admission she wasnt forced into a marriage with an older man against her will.”
Ahhh, but someone forced into “working on a wedding dress.”
In other words, she was beig conditioned for the command, whether it came or not.
Google “Winslow, -Ben and FLDS” and see how many hits you get. Is this guy a member or sympathetic Mormon?
“Coward Shurtleff who hasn’t the nerve to enforce the law in Utah “
Because his career would end immediately, if he did.
;) What is principle when your career is at stake, eh?
Yep, and Syphilis kept that incarceration from being the slap on the hand it might have been, since there wasn’t an effective treatment for it. He was going to die anyway, and that way he got to wallow in his pain rather than distracting himself and infecting other people.
Well, about 100 of them are 2 & under...so 50 of them were probably born in the past year.
Other than that, it was probably "Here come the brides."
Um, because it is true? Perhaps the welfare is not outright fraud, but these women are not really married and can qualify for aid...the men produce numerous children and then "bleed the beast" to provide for them. It is an insult to taxpayers who are responsible and support their own children.
And the abuse? Read Carolyn Jessup's book if you don't believe those kids are abused.
Fortunately, Texas is not giving the FLDS abusers a chance to flee with abused children in tow. That’s exactly what Utah and Arizona did.
They have been continually bringing new families to YFZ, as construction and thus available housing progressed. And I wouldn’t be surprised if records showing wives under age 16 weren’t squirreled away in a safer place.
she didnt leave until she was 18...
So by her own admission she wasnt forced into a marriage with an older man against her will
Would you allow your daughter to stay if she refused to “marry” an old man you chose for her ???
Without punishment or danger of some kind ???
The cult didnt...she had to FLEE...
She may have been refusing for some years before she left...
the Presbyterian Home for Children in Amarillo
the Methodist Children’s Home in Waco
The false prophet Joseph Smith must be rolling over in his grave...
It IS outright fraud, because in order to qualify for welfare payments, these women have to be representing that the fathers of their children can’t be found or have no assets or earning power with which to support the children. In fact, they know exactly where the fathers are, and the fathers have plenty of earning power, but are mostly working “off the books” and handing over most of their earnings to the cult leaders.
I wish I had that ability, but, alas, I don’t.
I hate pdf!
Thanks for the clarification. From what I have read there is lots of money in the sect and it is not uncommon for the women and children to do without while the men have lots of money to play with.
If such an event happened.
However, by her admission, in her case, for some reason it did not.
So in this specific instance, there is no 'perp' to get yourself all lathered up about.
Oh my, being forced to sew a dress for your future... Geez. Call me back when you get have a crime to talk about.
There may have been murders, shootings, stabbings, rapes, etc. etc. etc. going on at that compound - but THIS witness adds NOTHING to the case.
As long as they are going..they might as well take some q-tips with them.
Being forced to sew a wedding dress for a wedding you don’t want, to a guy you don’t love, for a life of servitude and sexual slavery you don’t want—might not technically be a crime, but it does expose the complete and total moral bankruptcy of this cult. Thank Heaven she escaped.
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