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Texas used seized FLDS records against polygamous sect
The Salt Lake Tribune ^ | 05/06/2008 | Brooke Adams

Posted on 05/06/2008 5:16:55 AM PDT by MrEdd

Census sheets found in a safe at a polygamous sect's ranch in west Texas both support and contradict the state's claim of a widespread culture of underage marriage.

Texas authorities used the sheets to convince a judge that there was a "pervasive pattern" among the FLDS of marrying underage girls to older men.

A review of the "Father's Family Information" sheets shows a handful of 16-year-old wives, 13 young monogamous couples and 24 men with multiple wives - including one man with 21 wives and 36 children.

A Texas Ranger testified about the census sheets during an April 17-18 court hearing before 51st District Judge Barbara Walther, who accepted the records as evidence despite objections from attorneys representing FLDS parents and children. The pages were recently released by the court. Sgt. Danny Crawford said the sheets were found April 5 in an office at the ranch, home to members of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Texas authorities raided the ranch on April 3 after receiving reports of an abused 16-year-old, calls now being investigated as a possible hoax.

Authorities have said, however, they found evidence of a polygamous lifestyle and underage marriage practices at the ranch that supported removing 464 children.

The bishop's record sheets helped them make that case.

(Excerpt) Read more at sltrib.com ...


TOPICS: Crime/Corruption; Government; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: flds; pedophile; rape
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Looks like the FLDS already compelling to the courts.
1 posted on 05/06/2008 5:16:55 AM PDT by MrEdd
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To: Politicalmom; greyfoxx39; MizSterious; brytlea; metmom

ping


2 posted on 05/06/2008 5:19:56 AM PDT by MrEdd (Heck? Geewhiz Cripes, thats the place where people who don't believe in Gosh think they aint going.)
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To: MrEdd

What a surprise......


3 posted on 05/06/2008 5:22:26 AM PDT by ukie55
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To: MrEdd

Those “siezed records” are what is commonly known as “evidence”. I love how the article skillfully neglects to mention why the defense attorney objected to using the documents and just mentions that the judge denied the objection.


4 posted on 05/06/2008 5:23:55 AM PDT by contemplator (Capitalism gets no Rock Concerts)
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To: contemplator
Papers found in the custody of who knows who , filled out sometime by somebody , between March and August 2007 , offered to reflect events that may have taken place at different times , and offered against who knows who . How could that be a problem ? Sounds good enough to me .
5 posted on 05/06/2008 5:34:37 AM PDT by kbennkc (For those who have fought for it , freedom has a flavor the protected will never know)
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To: kbennkc

If the evidence is good enough to rid my state of the people, so be it.


6 posted on 05/06/2008 5:45:30 AM PDT by wolfcreek (I see miles and miles of Texas....let's keep it that way.)
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Comment #7 Removed by Moderator

To: wolfcreek
If the evidence is good enough to rid my state of the people, so be it.

Unless Texas has changed since I lived there , the wrong doers will be punished and the children protected . I further predict that the lapses of due process will at some point be recognized and remedied . It will be a Texas size chore to clean up this mess .

8 posted on 05/06/2008 5:54:48 AM PDT by kbennkc (For those who have fought for it , freedom has a flavor the protected will never know)
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To: contemplator

Michael Savage on the Texas Stormtroopers:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8u4vXU0aYeU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yBOHpf3SEc8&feature=related


9 posted on 05/06/2008 5:58:12 AM PDT by Bushwacker777
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To: kbennkc

Hope Texas has a lot of money after the lawyers go after them for violating the civil rights of all these women and children.


10 posted on 05/06/2008 5:59:10 AM PDT by Bushwacker777
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To: wolfcreek

“If the evidence is good enough to rid my state of the people, so be it.”

Does this sort of comment remind one of Thomas Jefferson or Robert Mugabe?


11 posted on 05/06/2008 6:00:34 AM PDT by Bushwacker777
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To: MrEdd
Texas handles the Sacred FLDS Census Texts with unclean hands...

...untimely ripped from the Sacred FLDS Tabernacle!
12 posted on 05/06/2008 6:02:05 AM PDT by ricks_place
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To: Morgana

“As I was going to St. Ives, I met a man with 7 wives”.

Funny, I never really thought about that before. Why is a popular riddle based on an apparently acceptable, ordinary encounter with a polygamist?


13 posted on 05/06/2008 6:02:56 AM PDT by CharlesWayneCT
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To: Bushwacker777
Nobody's civil rights were violated, and prosecutions and convictions will be forthcoming, despite the wishful thinking of many FLDS apologists, sympathizers, and enablers on this board.

The State of Texas is doing the right thing in shutting down this evil child-rape cult, and doing the job that Utah and Arizona should have done a long time ago.

14 posted on 05/06/2008 6:03:44 AM PDT by Virginia Ridgerunner ("We must not forget that there is a war on and our troops are in the thick of it!"--Duncan Hunter)
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To: MrEdd

Another article said that the state was refusing to accept official Utah birth and marriage certificates as legal evidence.


15 posted on 05/06/2008 6:04:33 AM PDT by CharlesWayneCT
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To: Bushwacker777

Jefferson. Mugabe doesn’t give a crap if someone is raping children.


16 posted on 05/06/2008 6:04:40 AM PDT by MrEdd (Heck? Geewhiz Cripes, thats the place where people who don't believe in Gosh think they aint going.)
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To: MrEdd; colorcountry; Pan_Yans Wife; MHGinTN; Colofornian; Elsie; FastCoyote; Osage Orange; ...

FIP Ping


17 posted on 05/06/2008 6:07:34 AM PDT by greyfoxx39 (FLDS.... making babies with children because their God wants earthly bodies for spirit babies.)
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To: Virginia Ridgerunner

Yeah, and China hasn’t violated any Tibetan people’s civil rights.


18 posted on 05/06/2008 6:12:13 AM PDT by Bushwacker777
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To: greyfoxx39
Texas authorities used the sheets to convince a judge that there was a "pervasive pattern" among the FLDS of marrying underage girls to older men.

If they had merely written all the records in "Reformed Egyptian" then the authorities would not have been able to translate it.


19 posted on 05/06/2008 6:14:36 AM PDT by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*)
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To: MrEdd
A review of the "Father's Family Information" sheets shows a handful of 16-year-old wives, 13 young monogamous couples and 24 men with multiple wives - including one man with 21 wives and 36 children.

I guess he takes weekends off . . .
20 posted on 05/06/2008 6:16:19 AM PDT by BabaOreally
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Comment #21 Removed by Moderator

To: kbennkc
I further predict that the lapses of due process will at some point be recognized and remedied.

If you don't mind, could you give me a couple examples of what you consider to be the lapses of due process in this case?

22 posted on 05/06/2008 6:19:24 AM PDT by untrained skeptic
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To: CharlesWayneCT; MrEdd
Another article said that the state was refusing to accept official Utah birth and marriage certificates as legal evidence.

Because they could be forged.

Or because they could just be handing out the birth certificates to whomever they will to *prove* that girls were 18 when they got married.

A birth certificate has names on it but no other form of ID. How would you know which child the birth certificate went with?

If I come along with a kid and a birth certificate, that doesn't prove that that child is mine.

23 posted on 05/06/2008 6:21:28 AM PDT by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: Bushwacker777
CPS must respond to a call of the nature that they received. It is unknown to them whether the call is bogus or not - they cannot take a chance that it is.
(However the call was only one of many tips they had received, including a four year investigation of the cult.)
What would you have them do - ignore the call. Evidence has been collected, charges will be made and children will be safe(r). I am baffled by your lack of concern over the children of the cult.
24 posted on 05/06/2008 6:22:08 AM PDT by svcw (There is no plan B.)
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To: Bushwacker777
Texas has a lot of money after the lawyers go after them for violating the civil rights of all these women and children.

Could you give us specific examples of how the civil rights of the women and children were violated? And sources to support your contention; like which laws they specifically broke, for example?

25 posted on 05/06/2008 6:24:14 AM PDT by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: Morgana

In keeping with known male FLDS practice towards women, he probably slapped them silly, provided that they ever dared to give him grief.


26 posted on 05/06/2008 6:24:28 AM PDT by Virginia Ridgerunner ("We must not forget that there is a war on and our troops are in the thick of it!"--Duncan Hunter)
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To: Morgana

How do we know that some of the 21 mothers-in-law weren’t some of his wives also? What fun that would be, your wife being your mother-in-law!!


27 posted on 05/06/2008 6:27:12 AM PDT by TDA2
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To: Bushwacker777

There are many Mugabee wannabees on these threads busy defending the power and the will of the state to seize and imprison children. It doesn’t seem to bother them since they are not personally affected thus far. Some are socialists with a Marxist lean who will defend anything the state does no matter what. Others are simply too blind and too stupid to realize the implications when the state seizes and imprisons children enmasse.

Michael Savage is dead on balls accurate in his assessment of this family massacre by stormtrooping jack booted thugs.
Where do they find these people anyway? How were they indoctrinated? How can an Americans with weapons of mass destruction be trained to hold at bay unarmed, uncharged, and unconvicted, American mothers and children. What sort of childhood experience did they have that they could hate mothers and children with such rage that they could do them this way? Or is it they are simply indoctrinated to react to the commands of their superiors without question no matter what?


28 posted on 05/06/2008 6:28:38 AM PDT by takenoprisoner (shshshsh, the sheeple are sleeping and do not wish to be disturbed,,,oh, nevermind)
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To: BabaOreally
13 young monogamous couples

They all had to start this way...

29 posted on 05/06/2008 6:35:06 AM PDT by CindyDawg
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To: TDA2

Having one wife is way more than enough, and one mother in law is questionably too many. My personal opinion though.


30 posted on 05/06/2008 6:35:32 AM PDT by commonguymd (Let the socialists duke it out. All three of them.)
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To: untrained skeptic

Texas Family code section 264.303 .


31 posted on 05/06/2008 6:36:40 AM PDT by kbennkc (For those who have fought for it , freedom has a flavor the protected will never know)
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To: takenoprisoner

It is fascinating to watch, I can’t put the remote down so to speak. Anyone questioning the government is basically a heretic to that revered God for some, and considered vile and repulsive. I for one certainly don’t condone the accusations or the alleged behavior, but we all have protections or should have protections from an intrusive government.

I think it is perfectly fine to question the actions especially since we don’t have all the facts, nor have there been any arrests associated with the accusations. I feel better that the arrangement with the children is temporary during an investigation process, and I also think that many here putting government ahead of individual liberty and the basic tenants of the constitution are going to be disappointed when most of the children are sent home.

I am not saying those decisions are right or wrong or in the best interests of the children, but rather legal. The implications of guilt by association are huge in this operation in my opinion and should give everyone pause when considering the increasing power of the government, regionally, local, and federal.


32 posted on 05/06/2008 6:44:36 AM PDT by commonguymd (Let the socialists duke it out. All three of them.)
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To: svcw

Clearly, some people do not want CPS to be involved in any child protection, just in case they might be wrong. Far better to have children abused and murdered, apparently, than to risk a mistake!

susie


33 posted on 05/06/2008 6:57:55 AM PDT by brytlea (amnesty--an act of clemency by an authority by which pardon is granted esp. to a group of individual)
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To: takenoprisoner
When I read posts like this I understand exactly how these threads become so heated. So, in other words, if someone disagrees with you, they are indoctrinated, stupid, blind, etc? 5 year olds argue like that. It's not an adult tactic.

susie

34 posted on 05/06/2008 7:02:22 AM PDT by brytlea (amnesty--an act of clemency by an authority by which pardon is granted esp. to a group of individual)
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To: Morgana

When you have that many wives, you don’t have relationships as you are used to. This is a brothel, pure and simple.


35 posted on 05/06/2008 7:03:19 AM PDT by Southerngl
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To: commonguymd
I feel better that the arrangement with the children is temporary during an investigation process, and I also think that many here putting government ahead of individual liberty and the basic tenants of the constitution are going to be disappointed when most of the children are sent home.

If only these people were afforded the same group rights as gays and lesbians. Imagine the state seizing all the children of gays and lesbians enmasse for the alleged abuse of one yet to be discovered child? Or for that matter, all the children in any given suburban subdivision for the alleged abuse of one child?

No need to fret. Chances are these troopers are coming to a neighborhood near us all soon. Gays, lesbians, and straights. Since if we allow this, we will allow them to do anything to any of us.

36 posted on 05/06/2008 7:05:28 AM PDT by takenoprisoner (shshshsh, the sheeple are sleeping and do not wish to be disturbed,,,oh, nevermind)
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To: commonguymd

You clearly are misreading most posters if you think they are putting the govt ahead of individual liberty. So, let me clue you in. Most of us are putting the rights of children not to be *married off* or used as breeding machines before the age of consent, before the rights of their *parents* and *prophets* to do so with them.

You’re welcome.

susie


37 posted on 05/06/2008 7:05:46 AM PDT by brytlea (amnesty--an act of clemency by an authority by which pardon is granted esp. to a group of individual)
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To: brytlea

Wow Susie, first you post this nonsense:

“Clearly, some people do not want CPS to be involved in any child protection, just in case they might be wrong. Far better to have children abused and murdered, apparently, than to risk a mistake!”

Then you posted this next:

“When I read posts like this I understand exactly how these threads become so heated. So, in other words, if someone disagrees with you, they are indoctrinated, stupid, blind, etc? 5 year olds argue like that. It’s not an adult tactic.”

Pot meet kettle


38 posted on 05/06/2008 7:08:13 AM PDT by commonguymd (Let the socialists duke it out. All three of them.)
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To: commonguymd; takenoprisoner

Great, so you admit his post was pure hyperbole??!!! Thank you!!
susie


39 posted on 05/06/2008 7:13:07 AM PDT by brytlea (amnesty--an act of clemency by an authority by which pardon is granted esp. to a group of individual)
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To: Southerngl

My question is, where do they do the deed if all the women live together with the kids in the dorm?

Does Daddy have a schedule or does he snag wife #3 before she goes to bed? Does she get to sleep over, does he cuddle her and tell her he loves her.... or does he boink her then send her back to the dorm with the other fillies?

For those arguing families and why did CPS pull all the kids, who do you find the individual ‘family’ in this muddled mess. This isn’t marriage and this isn’t family. This is cattle and breeding (and I was raised on a farm so I know what it looks like).


40 posted on 05/06/2008 7:13:28 AM PDT by najida (On FR- Most guys see themselves is Brad Pitt, and think every woman here is Aunt Bea)
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To: brytlea

Sure, I understand that and I also understand that before the age of consent is illegal and should be punished. As far as being “married off”, you don’t like arranged marriages in Indian culture either where the divorce rate is much lower and they seem much happier and devoted?


41 posted on 05/06/2008 7:13:40 AM PDT by commonguymd (Let the socialists duke it out. All three of them.)
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To: commonguymd

If the Indians are bringing this culture to the US and marrying off underage girls to old men who already have multiple wives, yeah, I have a problem with it.
susie


42 posted on 05/06/2008 7:15:26 AM PDT by brytlea (amnesty--an act of clemency by an authority by which pardon is granted esp. to a group of individual)
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To: brytlea

Underage is the only problem then? Shacking up too I guess, because that is what it really is. Punish the wrongdoers, but if shacking up with multiple women becomes illegal I will watch in astonishment.


43 posted on 05/06/2008 7:17:41 AM PDT by commonguymd (Let the socialists duke it out. All three of them.)
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To: metmom
Could you give us specific examples of how the civil rights of the women and children were violated? And sources to support your contention; like which laws they specifically broke, for example?

How DARE you! Why, the knee-jerk apologists are exempt from being required to validate their OPINIONS with some kind of proof.

You BASHER!, you.

44 posted on 05/06/2008 7:19:24 AM PDT by greyfoxx39 (FLDS.... making babies with children because their God wants earthly bodies for spirit babies.)
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To: takenoprisoner

At least you’re talking mothers and children and not families.

Where are the fathers? How are the families defined? How are they indentified? How do they function as a family? How do women relate to the children that aren’t theirs? How do they respond to having their own removed?

And again, where are the fathers and what is their function in all this?

The Vikings used the argument that you were a slave because those charged in your defense were too weak to defend you. So goes my charge-— Where were those charged with protecting these kids? These women? Where were the men of this supposedly super-retro sect, longed for by many for the good old days..... defending the most helpless in this situation?

Maybe the fingers should be pointing at those who made slaves of their own, then left them to be taken.


45 posted on 05/06/2008 7:19:27 AM PDT by najida (On FR- Most guys see themselves is Brad Pitt, and think every woman here is Aunt Bea)
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To: brytlea

If we had the level of investigation for each call that these people seem to want, it would take at least a month for respond to any 911 call. If you have a fire, better either figure out how to put it out, or leave the house.


46 posted on 05/06/2008 7:22:38 AM PDT by MizSterious (God bless the Texas Rangers for freeing women & children from sexual slavery and abuse.)
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To: commonguymd

You have been around these threads, so you KNOW what the problem is. Underage girls, *married* off (not legally—I wouldn’t be in favor of marrying off 16 year olds to be one wife of one man but it’s not illegal with parental approval, so I wouldn’t imagine the state getting involved unless the girl was unwilling and was forced).
Polygamy, in the technical sense is not the issue. It is illegal, but these are not legally marriages, so they are not punishable. But you know all of that.
susie


47 posted on 05/06/2008 7:24:34 AM PDT by brytlea (amnesty--an act of clemency by an authority by which pardon is granted esp. to a group of individual)
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To: MizSterious

Yeah....
susie


48 posted on 05/06/2008 7:26:10 AM PDT by brytlea (amnesty--an act of clemency by an authority by which pardon is granted esp. to a group of individual)
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To: kbennkc
Texas Family code section 264.303 .

I'm not sure I understand your objection.

Are you saying that the other members of the household were not notified of the court proceedings?

49 posted on 05/06/2008 7:28:45 AM PDT by untrained skeptic
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To: commonguymd

This is America. We still follow American law.


50 posted on 05/06/2008 7:33:36 AM PDT by CindyDawg
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