India slips in competitiveness ranking; US remains at top

Financial Express ^ | 5/15/2008

[steelboy]

New Delhi, May 15 India, which is rich in land, people and natural resources, has become a less competitive Economy in the past one year, with the country slipping two ranks in the latest world’s competitiveness index.

India has been given a score of 60.62 points, while that of China is 73.75. The IMD World Competitiveness Yearbook is a comprehensive report on the competitiveness of nations and is published since 1989. It provides several customised rankings, whether by size, wealth or regions.

[the invisib1e hand]

they say Mumbai is more expensive than NYC now. Of course, there’s still probably no shortage of cheap labor to exploit in the distant suburbs.

[Fee]

China has a literacy rate of 95 percent and India has a literacy rate of 75 percent. India is just dismantling its European style socialist protectionist economic policies. India is still behind China because for all practical purposes she is in the initial phases of free markets, and moving in the right direction assuming her democratic opposition composed of socialists and Communists does not throw up roadblocks. India needs to eliminate the caste system and close the literacy gap in order to unleash the potential of her people completely. Overall India is in the process of awakening to take her place on the global economical scene.

[Alter Kaker]

they say Mumbai is more expensive than NYC now. Of course, there’s still probably no shortage of cheap labor to exploit in the distant suburbs.

That's only if you measure cost of living bizarrely.

Mumbai is only more expensive than New York if you're a corporate executive trying to live in Mumbai in exactly the same way that a corporate executive would live in New York. Of course nobody in their right mind would want to do that -- you adjust your lifestyle to fit local practicalities. It costs a fortune in Mumbai to eat out at fancy restaurants, but why would you do that when you could hire excellent private cooks for next to nothing?

The overwhelming majority of the 13 million people who live in the center of Mumbai (not in distant suburbs) live on only a tiny fraction of what your typical New Yorker lives on. And much of India's growing middle class live quite well.

[redstateconfidential]

How dare you mention the Indians drop the Caste system,why that saint Ghandi believed wholeheartedly in the caste system, and he was a big supporter of the Japanese in WW2, hey ...wait a minute..?(Sarc)

[the invisib1e hand]

wow. you sound like a chamber of outsourcing commerce brochure.

I work with Indians. I hear that the cost of living in Mumbai is getting quite high.

[kalee]

ping

[Alter Kaker]

wow. you sound like a chamber of outsourcing commerce brochure.

Huh? I've just been to Mumbai recently, that's all. Have you?

I work with Indians.

That's nice. Me too.

[the invisib1e hand]

That's nice. Me too.

Gawd, but you're a boor.

So long.

[CarrotAndStick]

India needs to eliminate the caste system.

The caste "system" has been outlawed since 1947. What remains of it is a social problem, not a political one.

Replace "casteism" with "racism" and then give a method of eliminating it completely. Also name a country where this has been successfully accomplished.

[steelboy]

Actually, India’s literacy rate is 60%, with women’s well below 50 percent. And India has been in awakening for the past 50 years. The so called Indian democracy is just partcipated by no more 5 percent of the total male population. The rest have no say in the political process.

[redstateconfidential]

The caste “system” has been outlawed since 1947. What remains of it is a social problem, not a political one.

Replace “casteism” with “racism” and then give a method of eliminating it completely. Also name a country where this has been successfully accomplished.”

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm ,let me see, let me see,oh(!) wait, when I stay at an Indian Family owned big motel, buy hardware from a 2nd generation Korean who’s dad started the business in America, submit a bid to a Black Doctor who lives in 7 million dollar house, and help a Mexican immigrant load a big screen TV into his 2007 loaded Minivan, I think I might have an answer for you. Can you guess?

[CarrotAndStick]

Yes. Tell me how the Indian government is responsible for whatever the people you know of, believe in.

[CarrotAndStick]

LOL!

Where did you pull that figure from?

Voter turnouts are consistently high in Indian elections.

You, as a ChiCom, might want India to implement a Maoist system, don’t you?

[CarrotAndStick]

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm ,let me see, let me see,oh(!) wait, when I stay at an Indian Family owned big motel, buy hardware from a 2nd generation Korean who’s dad started the business in America, submit a bid to a Black Doctor who lives in 7 million dollar house, and help a Mexican immigrant load a big screen TV into his 2007 loaded Minivan, I think I might have an answer for you. Can you guess?

Oh, ok. The richest man in India, is not one of those "higher castes". The Prime Minister, is Sikh. The leader of the ruling party, is Catholic. So is the Defence Minister. The man who ran India's space programme in the recent past, was Muslim (the good kind). So is the one who established one of India's biggest tech companies. The former President of the country, was a Dalit. So was the one who framed India's current Constitution. The biggest company in India is run by a Zoroastrian. India's military generals have often been Christians and at one time, a Jew (he was crucial in India's 1971 war with Pakistan).

As for the guess, tell me what Obama is doing in American politics currently, with his evident race politics.

[redstateconfidential]

You have jumped the shark.
Regards,
The Fonz

[CarrotAndStick]

"How dare you mention the Indians drop the Caste system, why that saint Gandhi believed wholeheartedly in the caste system, and he was a big supporter of the Japanese in WW2?"

Get your facts right.

Voluntary enlistment in the Indian Army - under British command - was stepped up. By the end of the war it became the largest volunteer army in the world - and played a decisive role in ending the war.

Harbans Singh - one of about 2.5 million Indian soldiers who enlisted for Britain in World War II - says martial traditions came before any misgivings about fighting for someone else's King and country.

"We were not fearing from war. Our mind became like theirs. We thought: 'If we will not kill this man, he will kill us'," he says.

Captured by the Germans, he survived both German prison camp and the experience of being bombed by his own side on the way there.

At the end of the war he lived to fight in the new army of independent India against Pakistan and China.

In 1944, Indian forces were largely responsible for recapturing Burma and stopping the Japanese advance on the rest of the Raj.

At the British war cemetery at Kohima, near the Burmese border in north-east India, their contribution is remembered with the words: "For your tomorrow, we've given our today."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/210599.stm

 

BTW, Gandhi was a supporter of Indians fighting for Britain in WW2. Perhaps you missed that part of History 101.

India in the Second World War

http://www.cwgc.org/admin/files/cwgc_india.pdf

With 2.5 million men, from an initial 195,000, the Indian Army of the Second World War was the largest volunteer army the world had ever seen. These figures include the units of the Indian State Forces, which by the end of the war totalled some 100,000 troops, of whom over 41,000 were serving outside their states, many of them overseas. Again, the Indian Army participated in early operations, with a mule company of the Royal Indian Army Service Corps in France as part of the British Expeditionary Force evacuated from Dunkirk in May 1940, and the 4th Indian Division seeing action against Italian forces, playing a major role in their expulsion from Egypt in December 1940, from Abyssinia in May 1941, and, along with the 5th Indian Division, from Eritrea in May 1941.


For the next two years Indian divisions took part in the see-saw struggle between Allied and Axis forces across the deserts of North Africa, culminating in the Battle of El Alamein in October 1942 and the pursuit into Libya and Tunisia in the early months of 1943. During the most critical period of the campaign, when Axis forces threatened to break through into Asia, six of the fourteen divisions under Allied Command were Indian and the Axis surrender on 6 May was taken by an officer of the Indian Army. Campaigns in North and East Africa cost 2,500 Indian lives.


Three Indian divisions, half of the Commonwealth force, also fought in Italy between 1943 and 1945, leading the assault on the German defensive Bernhardt Line, and taking part in the battle for Monte Cassino and the pursuit of German forces northwards. More than 5,500 Indians died in this campaign.


On the Malay peninsula, Indian troops had already been sent to reinforce local defences when the Japanese invaded in December 1941, but the Japanese advance could not be contained and, by the time Singapore fell in February 1942, 65,000 Indian soldiers were prisoners of war. More than 16,000 Indians died in the short and violent campaign, or later in captivity. The Japanese went on to take Burma (Myanmar) and to occupy a part of North East India, and Indian forces again played a key role in their recovery in 1944/45, but with a loss of more than 25,000 lives.


The Commitment in India Over 62,000 Commonwealth war dead of the two world wars are commemorated by the Commission in India. Casualties during the First World War died on the North West Frontier or in garrisons, and, as it was not possible to maintain all the civil, cantonment and outpost cemeteries in which many of them were buried, their names are recorded on memorials in the war cemeteries at Delhi, Madras and Kirkee, and on the Memorial Arch in New Delhi (today known as the India Gate).


During the Second World War, cemeteries for hospitals and lines of communication were established at Ranchi, Kirkee, Madras, Digboi and Gauhati, and for the battlefields at Imphal and Kohima. Delhi War Cemetery was established after independence to accommodate wartime graves from cantonments in Northern, Western and Central India.





For further information contact:

The Commonwealth War Graves Commission,

2 Marlow Road
Maidenhead
Berkshire
SL6 7DX
United Kingdom
Tel: (01628) 634221
Fax: (01628) 771208
Telex: 847526 Comgra G
E-mail: casualty.enq@cwgc.org

 

 

Khukris unsheathed, Gurkha troops charge the enemy lines in Burma.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

A Lt Colonel from the 20th Indian Division accepts the formal surrender of a Japanese Commander at Saigon, Vietnam, in September 1945.

 

A group from the 152nd Para Battalion displaying the Japanese flag they captured at Tangkhul Hundung. ( Photograph: Bharat-Rakshak.com )

 

Indian Paratroopers during World War II, with a British officer. Source: Parachute Regiment (India).

 

The first Indians to parachute - Captain Rangaraj (right) and Havildar Major Mathura Singh (left).

 

British and Indian troops exchange pleasantries as they meet on the road between Imphal and Kohima following the successful relief of the Kohima box. Circa April 1944.

 

A truly spectacular image. In the heat of the moment - Indian soldiers storm a German trench, after exploding it with hand grenades. Circa 1945.

An Italian soldier surrenders to a Jawan, during Operation Crusader, of an unnamed Division and Regiment, on 08 December 1941. The purpose of Operation Crusader was two-fold; to relieve Tobruk and destroy the Afrika Korp. First part of the conflict was a success, the second a failure. The battle took place between the Egyptian border and El Agheila in Libya.

An Indian soldier holds a captured Nazi flag. Circa 1945.

Medium artillery guns get unusual attention from their detachments.

Indian paratroopers being dropped at Elephant Point, Burma on 1 May 1945.

Flag captured from the 90th Panzer Light Division at Ruweisat Ridge. Circa 1942.

[redstateconfidential]

” Jews, every one—he disapproved of how rarely they loved their enemies. And
he never repented of his recommendation of collective suicide. Even after the
war, when the full extent of the Holocaust was revealed, Gandhi told Louis
Fischer, one of his biographers, that the Jews died anyway, didn’t they? They
might as well have died significantly.

Gandhi’s views on the European crisis were not entirely consistent. He
vigorously opposed Munich, distrusting Chamberlain. “Europe has sold her soul
for the sake of a seven days’ earthly existence,” he declared. “The peace that
Europe gained at Munich is a triumph of violence.” But when the Germans moved
into the Bohemian heartland, he was back to urging nonviolent resistance,
exhorting the Czechs to go forth, unarmed, against the Wehrmacht, *perishing
gloriously*—collective suicide again. He had Madeleine Slade draw up two
Get YOUR FACTS STRAIGHT

When Hitler attacked Poland, however, Gandhi suddenly endorsed the Polish army’s
military resistance, calling it “almost nonviolent.” (If this sounds like
double-talk, I can only urge readers to read Gandhi.) He seemed at this point to
have a rather low opinion of Hitler, but when Germany’s panzer divisions turned
west, Allied armies collapsed under the ferocious onslaught, and British ships
were streaming across the Straits of Dover from Dunkirk, he wrote furiously to
the Viceroy of India: “This manslaughter must be stopped. You are losing; if you
persist, it will only result in greater bloodshed. Hitler is not a bad man....”

Gandhi also wrote an open letter to the British people, passionately urging them
to surrender and accept whatever fate Hitler’ had prepared for them. “Let them
take possession of your beautiful island with your many beautiful buildings. You
will give all these, but neither your souls, nor your minds.” Since none of this
had the intended effect, Gandhi, the following year, addressed an open letter to
the prince of darkness himself, Adolf Hitler.

THE scene must be pictured. In late December 1941, Hitler stood at the pinnacle
of his might. His armies, undefeated anywhere ruled Europe from the English
Channel to the Volga. Rommel had entered Egypt. The Japanese had reached
Singapore. The U.S. Pacific Fleet lay at the bottom of Pearl Harbor. At this
superbly chosen moment, Mahatma Gandhi attempted to convert Adolf Hitler to the
ways of nonviolence. “Dear Friend,” the letter begins, and proceeds to a
heartfelt appeal to the Fuhrer to embrace all mankind “irrespective of race,
color, or creed.” Every admirer of the film ‘Gandhi’ should be compelled to read
this letter. Surprisingly, it is not known to have had any deep impact on
Hitler. Gandhi was no doubt disappointed. He moped about, really quite
depressed, but still knew he was right. When the Japanese, having cut their way
through Burma, threatened India, Gandhi’s strategy was to let them occupy as
much of India as they liked and then to “make them feel unwanted.” His way of
helping his British “friends” was, at one of the worst points of the war, to
launch massive civil-disobedience campaigns against them, paralyzing some of
their efforts to defend India from the Japanese.

Here, then, is your leader, 0 followers of Gandhi: a man who thought Hitler’s
heart would be melted by an appeal to forget race, color, and creed, and who was
sure the feelings of the Japanese would be hurt if they sensed themselves
unwanted. As world-class statesmen go, it is not a very good record. Madeleine
Slade was right, I suppose. The world certainly didn’t listen to Gandhi. Nor,
for that matter, has the modern government of India listened to Gandhi. Although
all Indian politicians of all political parties claim to be Gandhians, India has
blithely fought three wars against Pakistan, one against China, and even invaded
and seized tiny, helpless Goa, and all without a whisper of a shadow of a
thought of ahimsa. And of course India now has atomic weapons, a satyagraha
technique if ever there was one.

Perhaps your abstract responses are
are based on your faulty grasp of the English language.

[CarrotAndStick]

Humour me with a URL.

As for the grasp of language, will you provide lessons, gratis?

[endthematrix]

I'm no expert, but do you think I can find numerous instances of political repression against Dalits?

You aren't saying India has disregard for law?

[CarrotAndStick]

You said:

How dare you mention the Indians drop the Caste system, why that saint Ghandi [sic] believed wholeheartedly in the caste system, and he was a big supporter of the Japanese in WW2, hey ...wait a minute..?(Sarc)


Opinions on the War

At the outbreak of war, the Congress Party had during the Wardha meeting of the working-committee in September 1939, passed a resolution conditionally supporting the fight against fascism, but were rebuffed when they asked for independence in return. Gandhi had not supported this initiative, as he could not reconcile an endorsement for war (he was a committed believer in non-violent resistance to tyranny, used in the Indian Independence Movement and proposed even against Hitler, Mussolini, and Tojo). However, at the height of the Battle of Britain, Gandhi had stated his support for the fight against fascism and of the British War effort, stating he did not seek to raise a free India from the ashes of Britain.

>>>

World War II and Quit India

World War II broke out in 1939 when Nazi Germany invaded Poland. Initially, Gandhi had favored offering "non-violent moral support" to the British effort, but other Congressional leaders were offended by the unilateral inclusion of India into the war, without consultation of the people's representatives. All Congressmen elected to resign from office en masse. After lengthy deliberations, Gandhi declared that India could not be party to a war ostensibly being fought for democratic freedom, while that freedom was denied to India itself. As the war progressed, Gandhi intensified his demand for independence, drafting a resolution calling for the British to Quit India. This was Gandhi's and the Congress Party's most definitive revolt aimed at securing the British exit from Indian shores.

>>>

 

 

So, show me where Gandhi was a big supporter of the Japanese in WW2. Your 'excellent' grasp of the English language should make that a breeze.

[CarrotAndStick]

I'm no expert, but do you think I can find numerous instances of political repression against Dalits?

Ah, political repression. Please go ahead. Tell me of the laws, and policies of the Indian Government that are discriminatory, negatively, towards Dalits.

You aren't saying India has disregard for law?

Disregard for law? As in certain peoples' disregard for law? Yes, India isn't perfect.

[endthematrix]

As in certain peoples' disregard for law?

Like prosecutors?

The Government of India has itself noted this failure in its 2001-2002 Annual Report on the Prevention of Atrocities Act, 1989, which states that in 2002, only 2.31 percent of cases brought under the Prevention of Atrocities Act, 1989 had resulted in convictions. The low rate of convictions, compared against the high number of atrocities reported against Dalits, speaks to the caste bias of prosecutors, as well as other organs of justice, including the judiciary.

[redstateconfidential]

http://history.eserver.org/ghandi-nobody-knows.txt

This information is new to you or maybe you think it is some clever(Mountbatten) Colonial propaganda ? I was aware of most of these events and statements a long time ago.

Lots of information from you on a topic I have already read quite a bit about , Indian troops fighting in many wars for Great Britain. T. E Lawrence wrote in THE SEVEN PILLARS OF WISDOM about the reliable and stoic Indian troops in his campaign and how utterly dispirited they became when they were out of their “pepper”.But thanks for the pretty pictures.
My earlier point was that America is one place were anyone could, regardless of race or religion(caste) , realize their wildest dreams. Do you think different?
A friend of mine is a daughter of a lower caste who runs a department of the CDC like a Swiss watch. No one there seems either aware or concerned about her families caste or status on the sub-continent.
Good night.

[CarrotAndStick]

So, the Government of India self-introspects, and reports shortcomings. Is that a bad thing?

As for judges and prosecutors without bias, is the United States perfect in that regard? Do you think an appropriate internet search won’t lead me to articles about racism in the US legal system? I don’t think so. What about you?

[CarrotAndStick]

"http://history.eserver.org/ghandi-nobody-knows.txt"


Perhaps the first step might be to wear out a dictionary or an encyclopaedia, to get Gandhi's spelling right.


My earlier point was that America is one place were anyone could, regardless of race or religion(caste) , realize their wildest dreams. Do you think different?

No, I don't. Just as the case is, with modern India. Both have their exceptions though. Otherwise, America wouldn't have had needed all of those nasty Civil Rights movements, in and around 1960, no less.

 

But thanks for the pretty pictures.

I'm sure World War 2 would seem like a carnival to you.

 

No one there seems either aware or concerned about her families[sic] caste or status on the sub-continent.
 

As would be the case with many successful Dalits, in modern India.

 

 

Good night!

[redstateconfidential]

Wow, you really are having a hard time with the facts!

“Gandhi’s support was immaterial-Churchill was now in command of Britain, and he had no intention of allowing Indian independence, certainly not in war- time, and not with the issue of minorities (Muslims, practically speaking) still unresolved. Nehru’s demand was turned down, and now ****Gandhi, previously unwilling to further debilitate the British in their time of struggle, agreed to a small-scale campaign of civil disobedience*****, in which only the Congress leaders went to jail. This small-scale campaign lasted until 1942, when Sir Stafford Cripps arrived on the subcontinent, offering India Dominion status in the British Commonwealth after the war (which meant de facto independence, since a nation could leave the Commonwealth at any time). The Congress might have accepted this, however the proposals also insisted-in an effort to deal with the Muslim problem-that any province would have the right to secede from the Dominion. This Gandhi and the rest of the Congress could not accept, since it would mean the “vivisection” of India.

With the failure of the Cripps mission, the Congress now decided on an immediate campaign of civil disobedience. Before it could begin, however, all the Congress leaders, including Gandhi, were arrested in August of 1942 and imprisoned in the palace of the Aga Khan.***** Without the Mahatma’s voice to calm the people, India exploded into violence.**** The Viceroy demanded that Gandhi speak out against the civil strife, but for once he refused, choosing instead to begin a fast in February of 1943 that lasted for three weeks and left the government terrified that he might die in confinement. But still, he seemed less dangerous to them in his velvet prison than out of it, and so the government kept him in the Aga Khan’s palace, surrounded by his friends and family, while the war dragged on. He was not released until May of 1944, a month before D-Day, and he left the palace nursing a profound personal grief- Kasturbai, his wife and companion for the last sixty-two years, had died during their confinement.”

So the Japanese would have made better masters I guess, look how well they treated everyone else.
You can do that research on your own.
SUBAH RATRI

[endthematrix]

Now you're just blowing in the wind. If there's a law and it's applicable to a member of society to protect a minority and they refuse, it's up to the state to prosecute under the law.

Durham Prosecutor Nifong rings a bell. It was his self serving desires, not institutional racism, but still a black mark on the justice system. However, in the US bad professional conduct (and law) will get yourself disbarred, blackballed and/or prosecuted.

What about racism in the US legal system?

[redstateconfidential]

I could really care less how an anti-Semite spells his name.
Ghandi Ganndi, Arafat, Arafatt whats the difference?
Why did Ghandi’s grandson resign from his last post again?
Ahhh JEWWWSSSSS, sound familiar? A regular chip off the old block.

But thanks for your trying to compare America with India.
I guess Indians just come here to make money? Why then? Please tell me theres more to it than that.....? opportunity? freedom? Nope, can’t be, its the same as India right,..right...?
The nasty 60s humm, how many people have been killed through civil strife in India in the last 100 years, 50 years?..10 years?..last week?...(crickets chirping).. how many trains have been bombed in this country(?),keep going with that...
I got a deal for you ,I’ll study my dictionary , and you can get your facts straight.
Thanks for playing.
We’ll leave the light on for yah’...
Namaste

[CarrotAndStick]

If there's a law and it's applicable to a member of society to protect a minority and they refuse, it's up to the state to prosecute under the law.

Yes, in a perfect world, that would be true, all the time, without exception.

[CarrotAndStick]

Pray tell me, what was the total death toll of the American Civil War?

[CarrotAndStick]

Are you saying that the US legal system, in all of its 200-odd years of existence, has never been tainted by racism?

In other words, show me an example of a perfect system.

[CarrotAndStick]

I got a deal for you ,I’ll study my dictionary , and you can get your facts straight.

You too, Sir. Atleast until you show me facts on Gandhi's love for the Imperial Japanese military, as you implied earlier.

[endthematrix]

It's funny when talking about someone's shortcomings and they reply, “but what about YOU!”

It's you trying to get off-topic.

Perfect system? There's no match for the US Constitution.

[steelboy]

The so called Indians’ contribution to WWII restlessly bragged by the Indians is just a myth. The Indian army only entered WWII under the commonweath banner is just doing so because their British master forced them to do it. By the way, most Indian units in WWII did really badly. Many Indian politians at that time really believe the Japs are their savior and some even secretly plan to help the Japs invade India. I think there is also an Indian Nazi party during WWII.

[indcons]

This is an India/economics thread, boy, and not a ChiCom one. Additionally, I am on a self moratorium due to the recent earthquakes in la-la-land.

Congrats though - you might become an honorary member of the ChiCom Troll Club soon especially if you spread the propaganda and nonsense dictated by your masters.

[indcons]

LOL...you’re spewing rubbish. Give it up when you’re ahead, ChiCom. More Indians died fighting for the allies in WW2 as the ChiComs led by fearless “leader”, the syphilitic Mao, were surrendering to the IJA like the cowards that you are.

[CarrotAndStick]

It's you trying to get off-topic.

As much as you itch to say that, I'd call you a hypocrit.

Perfect system? There's no match for the US Constitution.

Once the Jim Crow laws were negated, no doubt, in the mid '50s. Fair criticism, would you say? Or were these laws just a mirage?

[CarrotAndStick]

The Indian army only entered WWII under the commonweath banner is just doing so because their British master forced them to do it.

LOLOLOLOLOL!!!

What part of 'all-volunteer' don't you understand? Reply to me, liar!

[CarrotAndStick]

Ooh, right. The “oppressed” Indian immigrants. All college educated, and holding high-paying jobs, no less. Oh my, the oppression!

Give me a bleeping break!

For as many Indians who leave India, there are several times more foreigners, who enter it illegally. We've built a massive fence around the country, if you didn't notice.

See here; it includes pictures:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/2017207/posts?page=4#4

We need the fence to keep in all the Indians that we need as slaves [/sarc].

Last time I checked, quite a number of Americans reside in India. As per your faulty logic, what are they fleeing from? [/sarc]. Or are they economic migrants too?

About refugees, and other people, funny thing about India. MILLIONS have fled oppression to enter and live in India, too. Go ask the Tibetans. After all, we are so oppressive, and they, masochists [/sarc].

[CarrotAndStick]

You say civil strife. By how many times is India more populous than the US? Five?

Let’s see. The US Civil War and the conflicts that led to its culmination likely had casualties went close to a million deaths, lynchings and all.

For comparison, can we multiply that by 5? Why, not fair?

What was the casualties vs. total population ratio of the US in the 1860s? What was the participation percentage, in other words?

Ping me to discuss per-capita murder rates.

[CarrotAndStick]

You mentioned Nifong. You might find this interesting:

Caste with etiquette

http://www.dailypioneer.com/columnist1.asp?main_variable=Columnist&file_name=jain%2Fjain140.txt&writer=jain

 

Caste is once again the main menu on the professional middle class table, with the Supreme Court clearing 27 per cent quota for the Other Backward Castes (OBCs) in education. There is heartburning over whether educational backwardness ends at the graduate or post-graduate level. This time, however, caste identities and animosities are definitely muted, with the rise of a tacit consensus to affirm the legitimacy of merit without casting stones at reservationists. This is a positive development.
 

In this backdrop, Mr Buta Singh's decision to take up the issue of Mr Mahendra Singh Tikait's casteist slur against Ms Mayawati triggers emotional ambivalence. As chairman, National Commission for Scheduled Castes, Mr Singh is duty-bound to uphold his constitutional mandate; he made dogged efforts to secure a copy of the FIR filed by a police inspector who allegedly witnessed the event. Ironically, this has displeased the Uttar Pradesh Chief Minister, who had decided to heed the advice of BJP president Rajnath Singh and Samajwadi Party leader Amar Singh to defuse a possible caste confrontation in the State.
 

Certainly Mr Tikait should have conducted himself with decorum, and not used language tolerated only in an era in which Scheduled Castes were denied the right to cast their votes. Mr TN Seshan's spectacular leadership of the Election Commission ended this menace, and after two short coalitions, Ms Mayawati is Chief Minister in her own right. As one who has risen from the bottom to break the proverbial glass ceiling, the BSP leader has no patience with the humility and gentility that characterised far more intelligent and capable SC leaders like Babu Jagjivan Ram. She is a warrior-politician, and one who may have acquainted herself with the Arthasastra during her stint in the wilderness.
 

Hence, when Mr Tikait's loose tongue raised hackles in Ms Mayawati's core constituency, she responded with a studied show of force married to unusual restraint. A 7,000-strong armed police force, including commandos, arrived at Sisauli village, but held the peace for three days to allow the Jat leader to surrender in court, where he promptly secured bail. Ms Mayawati ensured no untoward incident occurred in this period, and made a subdued statement that had the SC/ST (Prevention of Atrocities) Act been implemented properly all these years, no one would have dared to use undignified language against a person holding the office of Uttar Pradesh Chief Minister. This astonishing maturity is in sharp contrast to her last tenure as Chief Minister, when all Jat Superintendents of Police in western Uttar Pradesh were removed after one Jat SP allegedly misbehaved with her father!
 

The show of force chastened Mr Tikait, who apologised for his 'slip of the tongue' and said the BSP leader was "like a daughter" to him. This is the Hindu way of resolving conflict -- to accept someone as a member of one's family, fully deserving of the love and affection mistakenly denied so far. This sense of speeding reconciliation among groups, rather than promoting strife, prompted Mr Rajnath Singh to risk springing to the Kisan leader's defence by urging a policy of forgive and forget. Ms Mayawati conceded this to avoid eroding her new 'sarvajan' constituency, and fobbed off the NCSC request for a copy of the FIR. So when the NCSC succeeded in getting a politically ignorant SP to fax a copy of the FIR, the latter was promptly removed the same day and replaced by an officer from the Jat community!
 

Such deft manoeuvres will take Ms Mayawati far. Mr Tikait, however, must learn moderation. I was at the Shamli power station in the mid-1980s when Mr Tikait first burst into the limelight demanding power and irrigation for farmers; he then called Prime Minister Rajiv Gandhi "dilli mein driver" (an allusion to his previous profession as an airline pilot). Possibly the Kerala MP recently in the news was unconsciously inspired by this when he called an airline pilot a "glorified driver". In Hindu tradition, Ved Vyas recruited Ganesh as stenographer to transcribe the Vedas; as a nation we must overcome the tendency to use legitimate professions as terms of abuse.
 

Mr Tikait later called Ms Mayawati "Chengis Khan" and blasted the Government's indifference to farmers' interests. This was probably no more than "saving face", and hence rightly ignored, while articulating the legitimate concerns of farmers. The BJP intervention also serves the farmer constituency it embraced in a very timely manner with the Vidarbha padyatra. Farmers span myriad lower, middle and upper castes, and offer a constituency to counter Ms Mayawati when disillusionment with her rule sets in. With Congress in disarray and the Samajwadi Party leaning towards it, the BJP needed a distinct identity; Mr Tikait's iconic status as a farmer leader can help.
 

But the BJP must understand that, unlike secular parties, it cannot disown the institutions of jati, kula and varna, which are the millennia-old ordering and organising principles of Hindu society. These were lumped together as 'caste' by colonial officials who gave caste a bad name when they realised it was the bulwark against evangelical success. For Hindus, however, kula and jati are intimately linked to familial and social identity in a hoary past, and are intrinsic to self-respect. The Purush Sukta (Rig Ved) accords simultaneous divine origin to all varnas; it does not even remotely allude to untouchability or lowliness in any being. When jati and kula were fitted into the varnas as an organising principle of society, the varnas alluded to a hierarchy of values. This ensured that intellectual-religious, military-political, commercial, and other wealth-generating orders were not monopolised by any family or social group, a far more egalitarian and just system than that prevailing in Western countries.
 

While jati, kula and varna are linked to Hindu dharma, untouchability is a social invention to punish transgressors. It has no dharmic sanction, particularly as practiced from the medieval era onwards, when non-Hindu groups entered the land and came into conflict with an otherwise homogeneous society. Today, it is high time we ended social disabilities associated with jati and varna. Interestingly, Ms Mayawati blames Mahatma Gandhi for fostering social divisions by coining the term "Harijan", thus freezing Scheduled Castes in a distinct and inferior ranking. Mr Buta Singh rightly directed the States to stop using the term 'Harijan' as only the term 'Scheduled Caste' has constitutional validity.
 

[redstateconfidential]

You seem to go back to these “lynchings” , as
if you are so unaware of the Hindu Mob murders of Christian missionaries in the past few years, the act of “sati”(discuss,..defend?), the Indians who volunteered to fight for the Japanese and Germans in WW2(defend..?), thousands of years of religious violence, the political assassinations of Indian Political and Spiritual figures. Our Civil War differs significantly.It was over in 4 years.We freed our slaves, and what about the 3000 years of the caste system? You fought a civil war over equality , when ?................. Hmmm ,our people who used to be “slaves”are now doctors ,lawyers, scholars,Supreme Court judges , Congressmen and even presidential candidates.* India had 3000 years to do the same for its untouchables and lower castes*.You use the same excuse as China,”well there are so many of us, you can’t expect us all to behave”. But thanks for letting me know your feelings about the United States . Its been fun to read the same talking points any mediocre Communist professor would use.Kind of like Desmond Tutu weighing in on Reverend Wright’s sermons on America.
This debate seems to have revealed your hand. Regards

[cmdjing]

The Indian nationalists of the early 20th century had 2 goals.

1) Kick out the British

2) Hold onto an empire they didn’t earn.

In other words, self determination for me, but not for thee.

This is the root of India’s conflict with Pakistan and why it is also home to numerous violent separatist movements.

[CarrotAndStick]

Heheheheh!

We’ve had Dalits as presidents, and plenty of them are doctors, lawyers, scholars, Supreme Court judges, and more. Go read about the political scenario in India. Who gets voted in, and on what platform. K. R. Narayanan, anyone?

3000 years, wow! You say that as if that’s how old India’s post-Independent GOVERNMENT is, like as if there has been an uninterrupted chain of law since 1000 BC. Like I mentioned earlier, discrimination based on caste has been illegal in India, since independence. The discrimination is not institutionalised. There are more than many laws that have been designed to protect Dalits. What part of that did you not get? As for America, you seem to claim all those problems have been solved, yet maintain a mysterious silence as to why a race panderer like Obama has attained the position to be your president, solely on a campaign based on skin colour. Funny, eh? What have you to say about this? I’d like to know your opinion. Guess what, Blacks were not really equal citizens until the ‘60s. Half your country went to a bloody war over keeping them down that way. The rest of the period was followed by innate hatred towards them. Until the ‘60s. It’s funny that you need to be reminded of this, by a foreigner, no less.

I can smell your strategy. You just keep accusing someone attempting to debate with the most idiotic non-sequitor arguments, and then sit back and richly indulge in the same, as if you’ve painted yourself a shield of immunity. Guess what, I’m going to tear that down to expose you for what you are- a closet-panderer.

Where’s the Gandhi-Imperial Japan connection? I’ve been waiting for it, you know?

[redstateconfidential]

Sorry, I was reading about Sati again ,defend it how?
And how many Christians have been killed by Hindu mobs lately?
Now haw many Hindus have been killed by Christians(Sorry convenience store robberies don’t count)
Again, the Democratic Underground is where you get all your talking points, or the Obama/ Alinsky/Ayers manifesto.

Save your Indian inferiority complex for China.
America has been, and even if it falls into 3000 years of darkness, a better place for humankind than India can ever hope to attain.

[CarrotAndStick]

Now haw[sic] many Hindus have been killed by Christians (Sorry convenience store robberies don’t count)[?]

You should have been more informed before asking that. Now wait for this

http://www.satp.org/satporgtp/countries/india/states/tripura/terrorist_outfits/NLFT.HTM

 

 

		National Liberation Front of Tripura   Formation   The National Liberation Front of Tripura (NLFT) was formed on March 12, 1989, with Dhananjoy Reang (former Vice-President of the Tripura National Volunteers) as its ‘chairman’. Reang after being ‘expelled’ from the NLFT in 1993 formed a separate outfit, the Tripura Resurrection Army (TRA), but surrendered in the year 1997. After Reang’s removal, Nayanbasi Jamatiya became leader of the outfit and later Biswamohan Debbarma took over. However, another split occurred in September 2000 following differences between the Halam and Debbarma tribal members of the NLFT. Thus, the Borok National Council of Tripura (BNCT) was formed by Jogendra alias Joshua Debbarma. Personal ambitions of the leaders and parochial religious considerations are believed to have caused yet another split in 2001 when Nayanbasi Jamatiya and Biswamohan Debbarma parted ways from the parent outfit to have factions of the NLFT under their respective leaderships. Further, the fourth split is said to have occurred in June 2003 when Biswamohan Debbarma was deposed allegedly at the behest of NLFT’s patrons inside Bangladesh and Mantu Koloi was placed as the leader of that faction. Debbarma is reported to have subsequently set up separate camps on the Tripura-Bangladesh border with his followers.   The NLFT was outlawed in April 1997 under the Unlawful Activities (Prevention) Act, 1967, following its involvement in terrorist and subversive activities. It is also proscribed under the Prevention of Terrorism Act (POTA), 2002. Split   The NLFT split into two groups, one headed by Biswamohan Debbarma and the other by Nayanbasi Jamatiya, in February 2001. Following the expulsion of Nayanbasi Jamatiya and Joshua Debbarma from the NLFT, nearly 125 cadres of the group formed a parallel outfit under the leadership of Nayanbasi Jamatiya. Police records based on interrogation reports of surrendered/arrested cadres reveal that the split occurred as a result of:     Reluctance of the Central Executive Committee of NLFT led by Biswamohan Debbarma to nominate Joshua Debbarma as the King of ‘Tripura Kingdom’;     Misappropriation of funds by senior leaders;     Lavish lifestyles led by the senior leadership; and     Forcible conversion of tribal cadres/civilians to Christianity. Leadership Nayanbasi Jamatiya and Biswamohan Debbarma have been heading two factions since year 2001. In June 2003, ‘General Secretary’ Mantu Koloi was reportedly made leader of the faction Biswamohan had been heading. Earlier, internal bickering within the NLFT had led to a spate of violent internecine clashes in Tripura and at the outfit's camps in Bangladesh. Senior leaders such as Utpanna Tripura and Mukul Debbarma are believed to have been killed in such violence. However, other leaders of the undivided NLFT included ‘Vice President’ Kamini Debbarma, ‘Publicity Secretary’ Binoy Debbarma, ‘Chief of Army’ Dhanu Koloi, and ‘Finance Secretary’ Bishnu Prasad Jamatiya. While the Debbarma faction reportedly has an estimated strength of 550 cadres, the Nayanbasi faction comprises approximately 250 cadres.   According to the State police sources, community-wise break-up in the NLFT is as follows. Debbarma- 40 per cent, Jamatiya- 30 percent, Reang- 10 per cent, and others- 20 per cent. About 90 per cent of the top ranking NLFT cadres are Christians.   Objectives   The purported objective of the NLFT is to establish an ‘independent’ Tripura through an armed struggle following the liberation from ‘Indian neo- colonialism and imperialism’ and furtherance of a ‘distinct and independent identity’.   Headquarters and Linkages   The headquarters of NLFT is located at Sajak, a camp in the Khagrachari district of Bangladesh. Approximately 65-armed NLFT cadres are permanently stationed in seven huts at the headquarters. Another NLFT camp is in the Mayani Reserve area, also in the Khagrachari district. There are three huts here where 10-12 NLFT terrorists are present. Boalchari, the ‘general family headquarters camp’ of the NLFT is located in Khagrachari near the Sajak camp. Family members of top NLFT leaders reportedly stay at this camp.   Besides the camps mentioned above, the NLFT also has camps in the Chittagong Hill Tracts (CHT), Sylhet, Maulavi Bazar, Habiganj and Comilla areas of Bangladesh. According to official sources, the outfit has approximately 21 camps in these areas. Alikadam, a ‘major’ training camp for the NLFT, is located in the Bandarban district. This camp is also used to procure and store arms from the Cox’s Bazaar port in southeastern Bangladesh.   Usmanpur is yet another camp used for transit. This camp is located in the Habibganj district under Chunarughat police station limits. The outfit reportedly carries out strikes from this camp in the Khowai East and Khowai West regions of West Tripura district.   Details of other camps used by NLFT for subversive activity against India are as following:   Tailongbasti Transit Camp: Located in the Moulabibazar district, this camp is two km northwest of the Indo-Bangladesh border in Kamalpur, in an area dominated by the Debbarma clan. The camp is allegedly used for strikes in the Kamalpur and Kailasahar sub-divisions of Tripura.   Niralapunji: Located two kilometers southeast of the Indo-Bangladesh border at Kamalpur in the Moulabibazar district, the outfit uses this camp for attacks in the Srimangal town.   Kurma / Khasiapunji: The Nayanbanshi Jamatia faction of NLFT uses this camp that is located four-km north of the Indo-Bangladesh border in Kamalpur.   Cox’s Bazaar: A rented transit house has been set up by NLFT in the Sripur area for procurement of arms from this port town.   ‘Safe House’ in Chittagong: Earlier there was a NLFT ‘safe house’ in Chittagong Road No. 8, in a three-storied building bearing a signboard of the Bangladesh Urban Development Centre. The safe house then shifted to Chittagong Road No. 1 in a Government housing centre in Halisahar. The Biswamohan Debbarma faction was using this safe house that has modern communication systems including mobile telephones, computers and satellite televisions. Latest status of the ‘house’ following the reported removal of Biswamohan Debbarma is not yet known.   Mog Bazar, Dhaka: This ‘safe house’ in a three-storied building was rented after the NLFT vacated their New Eskaton Road house in Dhaka. This is another major communication centre of the NLFT. According to the Bangladesh Rural Phone Authority, they had recently sanctioned a mobile phone with ISD (international phone call) facility at this address.   NLFT has further links with the Inter Services Intelligence Agency (ISI), Pakistan’s external intelligence agency and its counterpart in Bangladesh, the Directorate General of Forces Intelligence (DGFI). During 1997-98, NLFT leaders are reported to have visited Pakistan to receive training and arms from the ISI. The ISI had allegedly arranged the passport and visas for the NLFT leaders.   NLFT has also developed trans-border linkages in Myanmar and Bhutan. Besides these, according to Tripura police, the NLFT has also linkages with the Nagaland-based National Socialist Council of Nagaland- Isak-Muivah (NSCN-IM), the Manipur-based Kanglei Yawol Kanna Lup (KYKL) and the National Democratic Front of Bodoland (NDFB), which is active in Assam. NLFT's nexus with the Meghalaya based Hynniewtrep National Liberation Council (HNLC) was revealed with the December 17, 2007 neutralisation of a joint HNLC-NLFT camp in the Narpuh reserve forest in the Jaintia Hills district of Meghalaya.     Incidents involving NLFT Constitution of The National Liberation Front of Tripura

National Liberation Front of Tripura (NLFT)

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/para/nlft.htm

 

National Liberation Front of Tripura (NLFT)

The National Liberation Front of Tripura (NLFT) was formed in December 1989 for the purpose of seceding from India in order to create an independent Christian fundamentalist state of Tripura. The group was banned under the Unlawful Activies Prevention Act of 1967.

The headquarters of NLFT is located in the Khagrachari district of Bangladesh, about 40-45 km southeast of Simanapur.

In Tripura a systematic surrender of arms by a faction of NLFT insurgents and NLFT fringe groups is due to the increased security pressure and to infighting within NLFT insurgent ranks. Since 2000 a few hundred militants have surrendered in small groups to the security forces, handing in their weapons. The NLFT leadership engaged in peace talks with Mizoram Chief Zoramthanga in April 2001, however the NLFT has not promised acceptance of any future peace process.

The NLFT has set up a number of camps in Bangladesh's Chittagong Hill Tracts (CHT), in the Sylhet, Maulavi Bazar, Habiganj and Comilla regions. NLFT also has ties with Pakistan’s external intelligence agency, the Inter Services Intelligence Agency (ISI).

 

 

Thirteen Years of Killings in Tripura by the NLFT

(The National Liberation Front of Tripura)

 

The Violence in Tripura Continues

 

In our concern for the violence that takes place daily in India's Northeast region, here is a sample of the typical but atrocious news that comes out of the region due to the insurgency of the terrorist, militant Christian groups that act in the area. These groups, in their promotion of Christianity, continue to kill thousands of local people in their attempt to ban all Hindu practices and convert everyone into Christians.  

 

Naganland: Baptist Militants Kill Local Political Leader
The Telegraph, Calcutta, Agartala, May 16, 2005

[Though we do not collect these reports like listed below, this shows that such killings still continue on a regular basis.]
        A local tribal CPM leader was clubbed to death in Tripura’s Sadar (north) by militants belonging to the Biswamohan faction of the National Liberation Front of Tripura (NLFT) yesterday. Police said Kishore Debbarma, secretary of a CPM local committee had gone to attend a party program at Shanitola yesterday.
        After the meeting, Debbarma, accompanied by a few other tribal cadre of the CPM, was having tea at a stall in a market around 5 pm when he was dragged away at gunpoint by a group of NLFT militants. The party leaders and workers were unable to resist the rebels but immediately informed Sidhai police. Within a short while the police and TSR jawans reached Shanitala and launched combing operations.
        Around 11pm, Debbarma’s body with multiple head injuries was found at a roadside ditch in the Katabon area. The police said he had been clubbed to death by the militants. Senior CPM leader and the party’s secretariat member, Gautam Das, condemned the killing and held the INPT-NLFT combine responsible for the incident. “The NLFT carried out the killing but it had acted at the behest of the INPT,” Das said. http://www.telegraphindia.com/1050517/asp/northeast/story_4747409.asp
 

 

 

 

More Deaths at the Hands of Extremists

September, 2003

1] http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/1089578.stm  

Police in the northeastern Indian state of Tripura say a leading Hindu religious leader, who was kidnapped by suspected separatist rebels on Monday, has been found dead. Police say the body of the man, Labh Kumar Jamatia, was discovered in a forest in Dalak village in southern Tripura.
 

2] http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/953200.stm 

Separatist group bans Hindu festivities. The leading separatist group in the north-east Indian state of Tripura has ordered indigenous tribespeople to stay away from celebrations of the Hindu festival Durga Puja. The outlawed National Liberation Front of Tripura warned that any tribal members seen taking part in the festival would be killed.
 

3] http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/899422.stm 
Hindu preacher killed by Tripura rebels. A tribal Hindu spiritual leader has been killed by separatist rebels in the northeastern Indian state of Tripura. Police say about ten guerrillas belonging to the outlawed National Liberation Front of Tripura, the NLFT, broke into a temple near the town of Jirania on Sunday night and shot dead Shanti Tripura, a popular Hindu preacher popularly known as Shanti Kali. The separatist group says it wants to convert all tribespeople in the state to Christianity.

 

Two killed, three abducted by NLFT in Tripura

Press Trust of India, Agartala,

May 1, 2003

 

Two persons were killed and three others kidnapped by NLFT insurgents in separate incidents in West Tripura district, police on Thursday said. Two collaborators of the banned outfit were kidnapped at gun point by the armed ultras from Jangalia village in the district last night and one of them was later shot dead.

The other collaborator was taken away, the police said, adding the two men were kidnapped as they had expressed their wish to surrender. A search operation has been launched in the area, the police said.

In a separate incident, another group of insurgents of the same outfit raided Tuikhamar village in the district during the day and hacked a person to death, the police said.

Three other persons engaged in laying railway lines were kidnapped from Jirania in the district on Wednesday at gun point, the police said, adding efforts were on to trace them.

Insurgents kill 19 people in Tripura

Wednesday, May 7, 2003 (Agartala):

 

Suspected insurgents of the banned All Tripura Tiger Force (ATTF) raided Sidhai village of west Tripura district late last night and opened indiscriminate fire. As many as 19 people died on the spot and six others were injured in the attack. The ATTF is said to be a militant group that crossed over from Bangladesh into Tripura. The group is reportedly behind the killings of 17 people in this very village two years ago.

Tripura militants massacre 31 people

Thursday, May 8, 2003 (Agartala):

Thirty-one people including eight children and six women have been killed in Tripura since late Tuesday night in a sudden burst of violence by militant groups. Most of the victims are non-tribals.

Insurgents from the banned National Liberation Front of Tripura (NLFT) raided a market in the West Tripura district and opened indiscriminate fire in which ten people were killed.

Four people including a woman were injured. Police are now conducting search operations in the area.

Earlier, members of the All Tripura Tiger Force raided Satchhari, a border village in West Tripura district and set fire to ten houses before opening fire killing 17 non-tribals.

In another incident, suspected NLFT militants shot dead a couple at Radhanagar village in North Tripura district.

Normal life in Tripura was affected today due to the dawn-to-dusk bandh (strike) called by ruling Left Front and opposition Congress-Indigenous Nationalist Party of Tripura, official sources said. Shops and other business establishments remained closed and flow of vehicles on roads was also thin in the early hours of the day, they said. No untoward incident was reported from any part of the state during the bandh, called in protest of yesterday's militant attacks in different parts of the state killing 31 non-tribals.

 

The following is a list of murders by the NLFT terrorist group of Tripura in Northeast India, which aims to establish a "free Tripura for Christ". It has banned Hindu practices in Tripura. Several Baptist missionaries have been caught with arms and propaganda pamphlets for the NLFT which shows their support for such terrorist organizations. You can find updated figures at the following website:

 

http://www.satp.org/satporgtp/countries/india/states/tripura/terrorist_outfits/NLFT.HTM

Complete listing of incidents:

 

http://www.satp.org/satporgtp/countries/india/states/tripura/terrorist_outfits/NLFT_tl.htm

 

[CarrotAndStick]

Sorry, I was reading about the Inquisition, the Witch Burnings, slavery and the persecution of Galileo, among others. Defend it, how?

[CarrotAndStick]

The Indian nationalists of the early 20th century had 2 goals.

1) Kick out the British

2) Hold onto an empire they didn’t earn.

In other words, self determination for me, but not for thee.

This is the root of India’s conflict with Pakistan and why it is also home to numerous violent separatist movements.

 

 

Lol, and mysteriously, the separatist movement all seem to happen along the extremities of India, more precisely, close to Pakistan and China. When a multi-layer fence comes up, poof! we have a long-missed peace.

 

Get real, ChiCom. It's not for no reason that the separatist are all conveniently armed with Chinese-made weaponry.

[CarrotAndStick]

America has been, and even if it falls into 3000 years of darkness, a better place for humankind than India can ever hope to attain.

Only since the 1960s, perhaps. Don't wreck too many neurons on this, modern India is barely 60 years old.