Serious Question for Ardent FR McCain Detractors

FR | 5-15-08 | Bob J

[Bob J]

This is a serious question and I respectfully ask for serious, thoughtful responses from the most ardent McCain detractors and not the casually disgusted. If you are only casually disgusted, please refrain from mucking up the thread and allow only the truly bulemic to air their rationale.

I am not a McCain supporter, never have been probably never will be. That he will be the eventual GOP nominee is all but assured and that I might find I must vote for him if only to counter an Obama or Clinton administration, well, that's my decision and one I hope you will respect as much as you ask others to respect your decision to not vote for the man.

But I have one question for which I cannot find an answer. I understand your disdain for the man. His past actions and his present positions on some issues, immigration and globull warming being chief among them, speak for themselves and anyone who cannot bring themselves to vote for him based on these and other ideological reasons is completely understood and defensable.

But what I cannot fathom is the intensity with which you endeavor to get others to not vote for him. I can't see the logic in it as allowing an Obama/Clinton win would inevitably usher in much more caustic era for conservatives considering the dem will have majorities in both the House and Senate on which to reek havoc on sacred conservative principles.

I know some are going to say we need a dem/liberal administration so they can screw things up so much that America will be screaming for a conservative to fix things. If so, please explain how this is going to happen because I for one do not believe it and the disaster a dem oval office, with congress in tow, could do in four or eight years that if a conservative could get elected again in '12 or '16 it might take 20 years just to undo the carnage, not to mention the 3 SC justices they might be seating. With a dem dominated Senate you can be assured that they will excercize the opportunity to dominate the most radical left wing socialists they can possibly muster...and they will be successful in seating them.

Please, leave the sound bites and jingoisms at the door. Only well thought out and supported positions need apply.

[hole_n_one]

Only well thought out and supported positions need apply.

It wouldn't be FR then, would it?

[willgolfforfood]

Were you actually going to pose a question?

[Bob J]

Good one.

[Bob J]

But what I cannot fathom is the intensity with which you endeavor to get others to not vote for him.

[blackbart.223]

"His past actions and his present positions on some issues, immigration and globull warming being chief among them, speak for themselves and anyone who cannot bring themselves to vote for him based on these and other ideological reasons is completely understood and defensable."

You just answered your own question.

[willgolfforfood]

See, from 3rd grade grammar, I distinctly recall that a question had a question mark at the end of the sentence.

[Alter Kaker]

I don't hate McCain personally. Actually, I respect him enormously.

However, I think he will be a disastrous President. Here's why:

If Obama somehow gets elected (and I doubt he will), he will be a terrible President for four, of if not for four, then eight years. But the pendulum will swing back and we'll eventually elect a conservative.

We elected Bush (who we at least thought was conservative) after 8 years of Clinton and the country didn't collapse.

However, a McCain Presidency will shift the country firmly -- and I fear permanently -- to the Left. When the pendulum swings back to the Dems, they'll pull it even further to the Left and you'll have shifted the entire frame of debate, marginalizing conservative Republicans.

For a preview of what I'm talking about, look at California. In California, Schwarzenegger may be less liberal than Cruz Bustamente would have been, but his ultimate effect has been to destroy the power of the conservative base. The Dems will always be as Leftist as they think they can get away with being. Conservatives need to act as a bulwark against their radicalism. When we abandon that principled resistance, even in the minority, we allow them to win.

[the invisib1e hand]

That he will be the eventual GOP nominee is all but assured

ya think?

[Bob J]

But what I cannot fathom is the intensity with which you endeavor to get others to not vote for him.

[the invisib1e hand]

It wouldn't be FR then, would it?

bwahahahaha!

[Bob J]

“If Obama somehow gets elected (and I doubt he will), he will be a terrible President for four, of if not for four, then eight years. But the pendulum will swing back and we’ll eventually elect a conservative.”

Assumes facts not in evidence and is primarily wishful thinking. If you’re efforts to get other to NOT vote for McCain are based on this, say so.

[acapesket]

Here is a simple answer Bob.

We Conservatives will not Vote for McCain no matter what.

Who comes on this forum and pre-qualifies their prerequisites of other people’s answers?

Someone looking for an outcome to match their desire... perhaps?

[Alter Kaker]

Assumes facts not in evidence and is primarily wishful thinking. If you’re efforts to get other to NOT vote for McCain are based on this, say so.

Huh?

1. I haven't made any efforts to get others not to vote for McCain. I wouldn't feel comfortable doing that. I am, however, extremely concerned about what a McCain presidency would mean and I do think in the long run it might be worse than an Obama presidency

2. The pendulum always swings back. That's not an irrational assumption. It always happens.

[kabar]

But what I cannot fathom is the intensity with which you endeavor to get others to not vote for him.

LOL. It is actually the other way around. It is folks like you who try to convince those of us who will not vote for McCain under any circumstance that we must vote for McCain or dire consequences will ensue. I for one am not trying to convince anyone not to vote for McCain. I view it as a personal decision based on principle and conscience.

[Bob J]

BTW - I contend that the damage a lib presidency, combined with a lib majority in both houses of Congress, can do in 8 years would be so traumatic that we will spend the next 20 years just trying to undo the damage...and that takes for granted a conservative will get elected in ‘12 or ‘16.

And that’s a big if...

[Bob J]

“We Conservatives will not Vote for McCain no matter what.”

Understood. Why do you work so fervently trying to get OTHERS to not vote for the man?

[weegee]

There is no “balance” in that perspective. McCain IS Left of Center. A move convervative SWING would correct the trend of Bush41, Clinton-Clinton, Bush43-Bush43, and McCain’s one (partial?) term (think he has the mettle for 2 full terms?).

The world cannot suffer 4 years of Obama. It would be like taking Carter where he is NOW and letting that be the “passive” image of the radical stirring underneath.

Bill Clinton was going to be a one term president too until the OKC bombing.

[Lijahsbubbe]

See, from 3rd grade grammar, I distinctly recall that a question had a question mark at the end of the sentence.

Hehehe.

[Bob J]

“I haven’t made any efforts to get others not to vote for McCain.”

many have and that is the reason for this post.

“I am, however, extremely concerned about what a McCain presidency would mean and I do think in the long run it might be worse than an Obama presidency.”

And I ask you to explain why you believe this because I, and others, don’t get it.

[svcw]

Well, I have met JM on several occasions and I found him to be an ego maniac, yet I believed him to love this country and has served it well.
As the years have passed I am not so sure.

I had decided to hold my nose and vote for him, the global warming hoax pandering began to tip the scales to no vote but when I read that Carly (the woman who single handily nearly destroyed one of the greatest companys in the world - HP) was on his economic team, that was the last straw.
JM choosing her demonstrates total stupidity and throw that in with McCain/Fiengold, McCain/Kennedy, McCain/Lieberman, amnesty - I am done.
I will write someone in for President, I will not vote for JM. So even though HRC or BHO may win, I still will not be able to vote for JM.

[weegee]

The shackles of socialism are not easily cast off. The speech codes of liberalism will make dissent a crime.

Already we see it. Those who challenge Fearless Leader are called racists. His Marxist views are never brought into mainstream debate.

His own writings are not considered “fair game”.

[DoughtyOne]

Here it is in a nutshell.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Senator John McCain wants to be the figure-head of Conservatism.  Okay, lets think that out...

John McCain becomes President.  He's still the same old John McCain.

The RNC backs his liberal policies to maintain a position of power
The Republicans in Congress back his polices to maintain access to the White House and quid pro quo
Republican candidates for Congressional seats move to the left, since John McCain proved that moving to the left assures RNC support  and votes
The Republican party leadership at the state level moves left as McCain and the RNC demand it
Republican candidates at the state level move to the left, since John McCain proved that moving to the left assures Republican support and votes
Republican Conservative office holders across the nation will be silenced
Apologists on Conservative forums across this nation defend McCain against the few Conservatives who are left, and attack them there (forums move left)
Last but not least, the Democrats move even farther left to differentiate themselves from McCain

Who writes Conservative bills and rams them through state or federal government after that?

Who talks about Conservatism from a position of power?  Who takes the chance to disagree with McCain on anything?

Under a John McCain Presidency, Conservatism ceases to become a movement, and becomes a theory.  It will no longer be practiced by enough politicians to be viable.

If wanting to pass leftist legislation, Obama would have 175 votes or more against him in the House.  He would have at least 35 votes against him in the Senate.
If wanitng to pass leftist legislation, McCain would have at most about 50 to 57 votes against him in the House.  He would have a most ten votes against him in the Senate.

Under leftist McCain, there is no functional opposition.  Promoting leftist policy, it all passes without opposition, nobody objects to the liberal policies
Under leftist Hillary or Barack, there is not only a functional opposition, it grows by leaps and bounds in objection to their policies

We saw what a one party system did to Arkansas under Clinton.  It was terrible.  Now we want to install that in our federal government, leftists one and all.

No thanks.  Color me dumb, but I'm not voting to turn the U.S. into 1980s Arkansas.

LINK: Welcome to McCain's impact on the Republican National Committee, it's happening
LINK: Welcome to McCain's impact on future candidates, it's being advocated
LINK: Welcome to McCain's impact on State level Republican party leadership, it's happening
LINK: Welcome to McCain's impact on Republican Conservative office holder voices, it's happening
LINK: Welcome to McCain's impact on Conservative forums, it's happening

Folks, you either wake the hell up, or doom conservatism to oblivion.  After November the 4th, it's too late.  You will have silenced Conservatism in our nation for four or eight years, and quite possibly forever.

[blackbart.223]

"But what I cannot fathom is the intensity with which you endeavor to get others to not vote for him."

Let's face facts. We are in a bad spot here. Every time I decide to vote for McCain he opens his mouth and makes me rethink.

But ultimately we have no choice than to do otherwise and that sucks.

[willgolfforfood]

So is the question about something you can't fathom? Or some question about intensity levels? And the "you" in your post - is it about ME personally, or some royal you?

I don't ever recall posting anything about getting anyone on this forum to vote either for or against John McCain, or anyone else running in the Republican primaries earlier this year.

[acapesket]

Now, Who is making assumtions?
We will all likely vote, and vote R downticket.

McCain needs to pick a Conservative VP, that may change a few minds.

I am not talkin’ RINO’s like the Huckster or Crist either.

A true Conservative as VP.
Otherwise I’m walking, and I suspect That I will not be alone.

[Bob J]

I'm not asking why YOU won't vote for McCain, the reasons are obvious and prevalent.

Why are so many trying to get OTHERS not to vote for McCain?

[TNdandelion]

But what I cannot fathom is the intensity with which you endeavor to get others to not vote for him. I can't see the logic in it as allowing an Obama/Clinton win would inevitably usher in much more caustic era for conservatives considering the dem will have majorities in both the House and Senate on which to reek havoc on sacred conservative principles.

Well...I haven't started a thread to tell others I don't understand them. Let me know how it works out for ya and I'll consider it. lol

[FreeReign]

We Conservatives will not Vote for McCain no matter what.

Speak for yourself.

I will wait until November 3rd to decide if I will vote for McCain.

[Dahoser]

But what I cannot fathom is the intensity with which you endeavor to get others to not vote for him.

That's because you're asking the wrong people. You should be asking John McCain why he's so intent on getting others not to vote for him because not a day goes by that he doesn't alienate more and more of us here. And elsewhere.

[TomGuy]

Many will hold their noses and vote for McCain — expecting a different result (him to turn conservative).

Ain't gonna happen. McCain will continue to be maverick McCain.

Read the speech he gave today. It could have just as easily been given by Clinton or Obama, with few exceptions.

McCain offers nothing that is inspiring or makes one enthusiastic to support him. He is just another politician making empty campaign promises and hoping voters don't look too closely at his 25-year record in Washington.

Like it or not, Obama is inspiring his followers and bringing enthusiasm to his campaign. He is also bringing in many new young voters.

The only think McCain might have in his favor is his VP pick. Then we could hope that Providence might be kind to us and that VP would soon have a career advancement.

[NormsRevenge]

You’ve been here over ten years and are now perplexed why folks at a conservative forum would openly cast aspersions on the “presumptive nominee” of the GoP?

A man who has single-handedly done more to seek freedom from torture for captured enemies of this nation, co-authored legislation that reined in freedom of speech during campaigns and then worked hand-in-hand with Ted Kennedy doing the bidding of a few who have other agendas for this nation than protecting it from all enemies foreign and domestic, and then has the unmitigated gall to go global warming and has shown no great love for a conservative base that brung many a coin to the coffer and and dancing shoes to more than a few Republican inaugurations.

If some here wish to vocalize over and over again these and many more little tidbits re: Sen. McCain, what better place to do it?

Personally, the GoP lost quite a few folks in 1998 when the Senate chose to turn and walk away from prosecuting high crimes by the Slickster.

Many came back onboard in 2000 and more in 2004, and then, the open betrayals began.. and the reprisals came. 2006 was a wakeup call the party has so far chosen not to heed to any perceptible degree.. If nothing else, maybe just maybe someone at the NRCC is paying attention to the fuss, if not, then it is likely to be all our losses in the end.

Of course, now the usual refrains from folks such as you and others is ‘how can you let obama or clinton win?’

Oh I agree, how can we allow such a thing to happen, but don’t try and kid anyone that McCain is a slam dunk, he is certainly not seeking to be one by his own choice or actions, so please don’t begrudge others their choices either. Maybe the party should answer why it allowed others outside the party to pick the candidate in the primaries, but that is of no import to many when it should be of concern to all. Talk about a real Operation KAOS.

In closing , cheer up, it could be worse, believe it or not. This nation has survived tyranny before and it may well have to again, better the other party be swinging the ax than our own. It is our Republic to keep, our founders knew the dangers that might befall a nation that succumbed to single party rule which is very close to what we are toying with today.

At least then, those who would seek to reclaim the Republic can strike back in defense without fear of being called a turncoat by those in our own ranks for doing so.

[buccaneer81]

Bill Clinton was going to be a one term president too until the OKC bombing. idiotic RINOs running the RNC decided it was Bob Dole's "turn' for the nomination.

There. Fixed it for you.

[DoughtyOne]

Because he is the death of Conservatism. I can’t for the life of me understand why those who realize this would be silent, or even could be silent on the issue.

[Alter Kaker]

A move convervative SWING would correct the trend of Bush41, Clinton-Clinton, Bush43-Bush43, and McCain’s one (partial?) term (think he has the mettle for 2 full terms?).

Agreed, but I don't think it will happen. The Democratic Party won't go away when McCain is President. They'll keep attacking him from just a bit further to the left, in exactly the same way as California Democrats keep moving the ball a little further to the left as Schwarzenegger follows.

When the pendulum swings back, it'll go even further to the Left -- to the Dems -- not to marginalized, now-irrelevant conservatives.

[matthew fuller]

"But what I cannot fathom is the intensity with which you endeavor to get others to not vote for him."

My objective in my negative replies on McCain threads is not to influence others not to vote for him, but to possibly attempt conservatives to join in an effort to DUMP him as the primary republican candidate. If McCain is the nominee, Republicans will wander in the desert for the remainder of my lifetime plus many more years. He absolutely cannot win the general election. It is my hope that if McCain is totally unsupported financially, then cooler heads in the leadership positions of the RNC might come to their senses and dump this dead turkey before the convention.

[alicewonders]

I absolutely DETEST Juan McCain, but I have never tried to talk someone else out of voting for him. I feel that a vote is a deeply personal decision that a person must reconcile with his own conscience.

I see things just the opposite from you - the most vitriolic McCain threads on here are the ones that have McCain supporters jumping all over people here who have stated that they, themselves, have no intention of voting for the man. I’ve had some of these people talk to me very rudely.

I’m not going to condemn anyone for the way they vote - we have that right as Americans & I respect anyone who takes the time to consider all options & comes to a decision after thoughtful consideration.

A lot of conservatives are very, very upset with the party right now & it’s presumptive nominee. When I make a negative comment on a thread bashing John McCain, I’m not trying to convince anyone to not vote for him - I’m just explaining why I won’t be voting for him, and I’m venting my frustration and displeasure with other people that feel the same way I do. I don’t believe in blaming the voters - I blame the candidate. John McCain has put himself out there & he is fair game for criticism.

I try not to go on threads where most of the people are praising McCain & disrupt their good feelings about him - I think that would be a downer for you all. I can understand that you’ve come to a difficult decision yourselves to vote “for the lesser of 2 evils”. I respect that, I would just ask that you not be so rude & obnoxious to those of us who feel differently.

[A Balrog of Morgoth]

And I ask you to explain why you believe this because I, and others, don’t get it.

Pardon me, while I whip this out.

I'll admit that I'm a little mystified by your mystification, given that the discussion on any thread on McCain invariably veers off into the relative "merit" of the two different candidates via-a-vis conservatism.

The question: Is the GOP better off being galvanized to oppose Obama, or dragged along in half-hearted support for McCain? Many would say the GOP would be able to get their act together while fighting against Obama, and might be able to stage another 1994 in 2010. McCain would seem to be just another two years of Bush, but worse, and another culling of the GOP would take place in 2010.

[acapesket]

Bob-
Name one person here that is Actively attempting to get people to change their Vote.

This is called an “opinion forum”!

We have one.
You don’t like it!
Nobody gives a care how YOU vote!

Whaddaya insecure or something?

[blackbart.223]

"Like it or not, Obama is inspiring his followers and bringing enthusiasm to his campaign. He is also bringing in many new young voters."

Unfortunate that most of them are products of public education. This is not looking good.

[Mrs_Stokke]

For some unfathomable reason, Americans feel the need to elect a socialist numbskull every twenty-five years (give or take a cycle). Bill Clinton wasn't bad enough. We need another Jimmy Carter. Obama fits that bill, with his committed Marxist of a wife, and the media is determined to have them.

If McCain should win, the situation wouldn't be much better. McCain has demonstrated his need for approval from the elitists in the media, and would continue to court them throughout his presidency. Like Nixon, he would give the media whatever it demanded, then be shocked and horrified when they turned on him and demanded his impeachment.

McCain would be the perfect Republican president for the democrats -- he's more egotistical and paranoid than Nixon was, and would charge into impeachment hearings with guns blazing. This would give the media yet more ammunition to use against Republicans in the future.

A McCain presidency would assure the destruction of the Republican Party once and for all. After selling out the last of our principles to appease the press, he would fall blindly into whatever trap they set. Can you imagine what that famous McCain temper will look like splashed across the front of the NYTimes day after day after day, and showing up on Meet the Press every Sunday?

Fortunately, we'll never find out. Obama will be the next president, he'll be a one-term wonder, and we can get on to the business of repairing the damage done.

[Baynative]

You needn't worry about McCain's political strength. His handlers and speculators are betting the odds that the conservatives lost will be minor when weighed against the Gore disciples won by globull warming posturing.

What people like me will not be able to forget is that when the Able Danger team was under assault from the left and Congressman Curt Weldon put his career and reputation on the line to defend them - McCain was silent.

AND

When independent counsel David Barrett finished hi report on corruption within the Clinton administration and the IRS and democrats went to court to supress the information that taxpayers had paid for - McCain was silent.

I will have to vote for him in what I see as preventing a collapse of our economy and civil stability. But I will NEVER support him or send money to his campaign.

[imahawk]

Defeat liberalism wherever you find it.Starting with rinos would be a damn fine idea.

[Perchant]

If McCain wins then conservatives no longer have a party. If a Democrat wins, conservatives will be able to fight Democrats instead of Republicans and they will feel that they still are represented by a political party.

It really does boil down to that. If you are represented, you at least have a possible future and a reason to keep fighting.

Think about that.

[Antoninus]

But what I cannot fathom is the intensity with which you endeavor to get others to not vote for him.

You've put your finger on something there. As far as I'm concerned, McCain doesn't deserve my support. However, I'm not naive enough to think that anyone but he or Barry O will be elected president. Convincing people not to vote for McCain will help ensure that Barry O is elected.

I won't be party to that. And while you won't catch me out there singing McCain's praises, I also won't work against him.

As much as I dislike the man, I'll be voting for him for two reasons:

1.) The US military.

2.) This...

[JRios1968]

Please, leave the sound bites and jingoisms at the door.

Well, there goes half the fun...

[NormsRevenge]

Why are so many trying to get OTHERS not to vote for McCain?
—

I think you meant to say

Why is McCain trying so hard to get ALL Conservatives not to vote for him?

Is that party loyalty? The man is a runaway locomotive and seems to pride himself on being so... just make sure you stay off his track. He really believes he is entitled to the nomination after getting bounced in 2000. No wonder he is so close to Hillary and speaks of her as he does.

[buccaneer81]

Unfortunate that most of them are products of public education.

Yep, I'll bet at least half of the under 30 crowd, who have attended college, feel it would be racist to not vote for B. Hussein Osama.

[HAL9000]

This “Let-Obama-win-so-he-can-wreck-the-country” strategy is just plain dumb. I think most people will figure that out by election day, and many of the people who are swearing “I’ll never vote for McCain” today will be voting for McCain in November. They will do it to prevent the disaster of Obama as Commander-in-Chief, to maintain our positions in Iraq and Afghanistan, to keep the pressure on Iran, and on several other policy issues where President Obama would be the ultimate disaster.

[Keyes2000mt]

I question the premise of the question. I've seen very few people saying, "Don't Vote McCain." I see a lot of people explaining why they're not going to support McCain.

I think you may quite a few assumptions about what an Obama administration could get done. If Democrats are going, they're going to have to win with Blue Dogs, so they'll have limited success in that area.

Speculating on the number of Supreme Court Justices that will be appointed is silly. If we believed every pre-election estimate of the number of judges that will be appointed, we would have appointed 9 justices in the last 3 Presidential terms. Also, I think McCain is the first "lesser of two evils" candidates the GOP has had since 1976, but Nixon was pretty much that in '68 and '72. Republicans worked their heart for Nixon and he gave us Lewis Powell, Warren Burger, Harry Blackmunn, and his successor gave us John Paul Stevens. Those are the type of judges I'd expect from McCain.