Posted on 05/16/2008 7:55:57 AM PDT by rosenfan
Maybe the reason the misperception persists that there are no atheists in foxholes is that nonbelievers must either shut up about their views or be hounded out of the military.
Just ask Army Spc. Jeremy Hall, who is making a splash in the news because of the way his atheism was attacked by superiors and fellow soldiers while he was risking his life in service to his country.
Hall, 23, served two combat tours in Iraq, winning the Combat Action Badge. But he's now stationed at Fort Riley, Kan., having been returned stateside early because the Army couldn't ensure his safety.
There is something deeply amiss when we send soldiers on a mission to engender peaceful coexistence between Sunni and Shiite Muslims, yet our military doesn't seem able to offer religious tolerance to its own.
Hall recounts the events that led to his marginalization in a federal lawsuit he filed in March in Kansas. Hall is joined by the Military Religious Freedom Foundation, a group devoted to assisting members of the military who object to the pervasive and coercive Christian proselytizing in our armed forces.
Hall's atheism became an issue soon after it became known. On Thanksgiving 2006 while stationed outside Tikrit, Hall politely declined to join in a Christian prayer before the holiday meal. The result was a dressing down by a staff sergeant who told him that as an atheist he needed to sit somewhere else.
In another episode, after his gun turret took a bullet that almost found an opening, the first thing a superior wanted to know was whether Hall believed in Jesus now, not whether he was okay.
Then, in July, while still in Iraq, Hall organized a meeting of the Military Association of Atheists and Freethinkers. According to Hall, after things began, Maj. Freddy Welborn disrupted the meeting with threats saying he might bring charges against Hall for conduct detrimental to good order and discipline, and that Hall was disgracing the Constitution. (Err, I think the major has that backward.) Welborn has denied the allegations, but the New York Times reports that another soldier at the meeting said that Hall's account was accurate.
Hall claims that he was denied a promotion in part because he wouldn't be able to "pray with his troops." And of course he was returned from overseas due to physical threats from fellow soldiers and superiors. Things became so bad that he was assigned a full-time bodyguard.
This is nothing new to Mikey Weinstein, founder of MRFF and a former Air Force judge advocate general who also served in the Reagan administration. Weinstein says that he has collected nearly 8,000 complaints, mostly from Christian members of the military tired of being force-fed a narrow brand of evangelical fundamentalism.
Weinstein, who co-wrote the book With God on Our Side: One Man's War Against an Evangelical Coup in America's Military, has documented how the ranks of our military have been infiltrated by members of the Officers' Christian Fellowship and other similar organizations. On its Web site, the OCF makes no secret of its mission which is to "raise up a godly military" by enlisting "ambassadors for Christ in uniform."
Weinstein says recruitment is easy in a strict command-subordinate military where the implied message is, if you don't pray the right way, your career might stall.
Beyond the mincemeat being made of church-state separation and religious liberty, it seems particularly combustible for our armed forces to be combining "end-times" Christian theology with military might. That's no way to placate Muslim populations around the world.
But there's no will for change. The military's virulent religious intolerance could be eradicated tomorrow with swift sanctions against transgressors. Instead, it's winked at and those caught proselytizing suffer no consequence. It appears that brave men like Hall, who simply wish to follow the dictates of their own conscience, will be needing bodyguards for a long time to come.
My future son-in-law, a Marine, is an athiest who served in Fallujah. He lost five buddies there. He is also from the God-less state of California. Other than the lack of religion thing, he is a really great guy.
In another episode, after his gun turret took a bullet that almost found an opening, the first thing a superior wanted to know was whether Hall believed in Jesus now, not whether he was okay.
This is un-American and stupid.
The staff sergeant and the superior should be reprimanded. There is no religious test for military service.
“This is un-American and stupid.”
Kind of like taking this article at face-value.
My favorite line is this:
But he's now stationed at Fort Riley, Kan., having been returned stateside early because the Army couldn't ensure his safety.
I'd love to see the author substantiate that claim.
Because it would be American and intelligent to just go ahead and reprimand someone who has been accused of misbehavior - without any proof other than the say-so of a disgruntled subordinate and that subordinate's friend?
I was never in the military, but I was a Navy wife for many years and I’ve never seen anyone treated this way. Ok, that isn’t proof it didn’t happen, but I’ve known all faiths, no faith, all sorts.
There’s never been any pressure that I saw, not at all. The Army even allows/supports Wiccans, and yet this guy is treated this way? I doubt it, no, I don’t just doubt it, I flat don’t believe it.
You're right, Dead Dog.
There's all types in the Army, and other than a general topic of conversation, in general no one cares about your religion, or lack thereof.
I was in the Marine corps 1967-69. Some of the guys were self professed atheists don’t remember anyone having a problem with it. During boot camp they went to church with us because it was peaceful, cool and quiet. Only thing I recall was one of them said the subject on that particular day was interesting.All of them were respectful of our beliefs as far as I know as were we of theirs. I think there is more to this story than we are getting here.
I don’t know if this story is true or not but if it is, that sergeant is in the wrong. First, an atheist who is willing to risk his life to defend his country is still a patriot and deserves respect. Second if you meet an atheist with a good heart then this is exactly the WRONG way to bring him to Christ anyhow.
I thought it was only Christians that caught flack for their beliefs??!!!
Agreed. If you want to be an atheist, knock yourself out. No one really cares. This kid's making up stories.
This is written by Robin Blumner, St. Pete Times resident atheist and Communist. Every week she has a far left, anti-Bush screed. She is unreadable.
My obsevations are anecdotal as well but this is the exact opposite of what I experienced. What I experienced was pretty much my first foray into PC hell. Lesbian AOIC who ran things for the nutless OIC. Sexual harrassment charges at he drop of a hat by civilian female employees. Tailhook, etc. I have never seen or talked to a service-member who thought the military was too religious and I was an athiest when in service.
How, by having the guy get killed?
Yaunnnnnnn
Good morning USA!
THis stuff has been going on forever - I was stationed at Nellis in ‘72 (NO, dadgumit, 1972) - we had a SSgt in the motor pool who kept a bible on his desk. You knew that when you went to draw a vehicle, you were going to get a 20 min sermon. I was paid by the year so I didn’t care, one of my buds was in a hurry and told him to take his thumping elsewhere.
They invited each other out to the bck of the motorpool.
Mr bible thumper didn’t come back - and was later discharged.
I suspect Mr. “I dont believe in God” was just a little tooo in poeple faces - not a smart thing in a war zone - too many folks with loaded weapons don’t ya know.
I just finished a contract gig at the local base, if there is some sort of christian mifia, I sure didn’t see it.
Maybe someone is looking to hit it big in the Lawsuit Lottery?
That’s what I was thinking.
I simply do not believe this article.
Especially since the ACLJ is having to fight tooth and nail to make the military allow chaplains to pray “in Jesus’ name”.
My 6yrs experience in the Navy showed that very few were religious, I think that’s because on a carrier during VN, there wasn’t anything to really be afraid of.
Amen to that, FRiend. The people who brought me over made a point of not pushing their beliefs on me.
I like this one, tells me all I need to know about the writer.
>>That’s no way to placate Muslim populations around the world.<<
How does one placate a Muslim?
Oh, I heard some stories from navy folks during VN...
not anything life threatening, just uncomfortable, like, when the carrier had to turn into the wind...
Well, three things will placate a Muslim.
You could convert to Islam.
You could subjugate yourself and pay the jizya tax.
You could die.
How does his lack of religion keep him from being an all-around great guy?
Jeremy Hall is so tiresome and boring.
Irrespective of your religion, or lack of religion, the military is one of those places you shouldn't let your own beliefs or nonbeliefs get in the way of conducting yourself professionally.
You'll be out of there soon enough and you won't even remember what your buddies believed specifically.
And never forget, all of them have a full right to their own religious beliefs and your attempts to interfere with them will probably not be appreciated ~
But even more....they were tolerant of religious differences.
This does to me. As a former atheist in the military, in some units there was no problem, but in others I knew to keep my head down. One community was basically run by evangelicals. And that was just as enlisted. Officers have it harder since they must actively participate in a variety of social functions if they want to advance, and a good number of them are religious.
He was safe. On the other hand I’d guess he was considered quite obnoxious and impolite, maybe suffering from borderline personality disorder.
If you were ships crew, you may as well have been off the Vacapes.
It depends on the post. In this case it's the local chaplain's call. I've met chaplains who I count as some of the greatest people I've ever met, and they truly wanted to aid the spiritual needs of the soldiers, no matter what their beliefs. But then I've met others who used their position to proselytize their brand of Christianity and ignore or suppress anything else.
Most religious people aren’t that obnoxious, but you’ll find a few that are overzealous. At least, the Christian zealots are more likely to pray for the unbelievers than cut off their heads, so what’s the real harm in that?
The ones I know, just want to do their job and have a place to pray...but then again I’ve been told my Muslim friends are really Muslims, because they do not want to kill people and force them to accept Islam.
The article said that most of the 8,000 complaints this organization has were from Christians.
He must have dead, soulless eye...creepy looking
You had an overactive imagination. Sure religious people have an extra dimension to their lives, but it’s not some sort of conspiracy aimed at you ~ many of them are sufficiently Calvinist they really don’t care about your fate in the universe ~ and it’s really surprising how many folks you can turn into good Calvinists if you are sufficiently obnoxious about your own differing beliefs or lack thereof.
VERY good point.
Correct. The Chaplain was one of the most non-busy people on-bord.
Hardly. How about, less dramatically, producing documents verifying that the Army moved him for his own safety?
So you have some information to the contrary. Please share.
Yes
If it's true of course. If he lied about the incident, court martial him.
I guess you'd just rather ignore it. Religious discrimination in the military; no big deal huh?
Skewed news is nothing new. But even if all 8,000 complaints are true, that's less than half a percent of our military members. And given that these complaints were over time we're probably talking about a quarter percent with turnover. That is a pretty low rate of harrassment for an organization like our military, with stresses and vastly differing backgrounds of the personnel.
The government can only take action on the basis of strictly secular standards.
Constant verbal harrassment could be an action the military might be concerned about.
The government could not subject the statement "You're gonna' go to hell for that" to any sort of critical analysis that delved into the existence, or non-existence of Hell, or what goes on in Hell ~ for instance to determine if it was a "threat", a "promise", a "curse", or whatever.
What you find in this story is an attempt to make a mountain out of a molehill.
Nope. It was common knowledge. Jews and other Christian denominations knew to not rock the boat too.
but it’s not some sort of conspiracy aimed at you
Who's talking conspiracy?
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