Posted on 05/24/2008 5:40:18 AM PDT by RayChuang88
Investing in commodities has been a brilliant move in this decade -- so brilliant that the strategy has attracted untold numbers of large and small players, particularly in the last few years.
What do you suppose all of their buying has done to the price of oil? Pushed it down?
With crude surging above $130 a barrel this week for the first time, a long-simmering issue is threatening to boil over: the role these new investors, often derided as rank speculators, have had in stoking the prices of oil and other commodities.
Their standard line has been, "It's not our fault." They point to rising demand for raw materials in China and other developing nations and to tight supplies as the main drivers of prices.
But at a Senate hearing Tuesday, a hedge fund manager named Michael Masters offered a different viewpoint.
He branded institutional investors such as pension funds as "one of if not the primary factors affecting commodities prices today."
(Excerpt) Read more at latimes.com ...
That's why you REALLY have to openly wonder if one George Soros--a notorious fund trader that heavily contributed to the Asian financial crisis of 1997-2000--may be one of the driving forces behind this. Soros could have had quiet "handshake" agreements with powerful people like Warren Buffett, traders in Europe, traders in the United Arab Emirates, traders in eastern Asia, and quietly sent slush fund money to Venezuela's Hugo Chavez and Iran's Mahmoud Ahmadinejad to deliberately sabotage the petroleum market to ensure a Democrat in the White House.
I’m with you. I also think we should just all show up at the local welfare office with our hands out. If they want to destroy our economy, let’s help by bankrupting this government even more.
The nice thing about real life is that, while Soros might wind up "king", it'll only be for the blink of an eye in the grand scheme ... then comes judgement.
I respectfully disagree with your belief that if Obama wins, “it’s over for this nation.”
On the contrary. We have survived Democrats in the past, we will do it again. Don’t forget, that Reagan took over after one of the worst Presidencies in our history. He was against a 65% Democrat majority in the House and Senate that had held that majority for the last 40 years, faced double digit unemployment, double digit inflation, double digit interest rates and an economy in complete ruin. The media covered for Carter, calling it a “mild recession”, when it was in reality, a full blown depression.
Reagan was proof that the right man can turn things around in a hurry. It takes a truly principled President with strong Conservative ideals to make that happen. There are no substitutes.
This election, there is no current candidate any where like that. The current GOP choice would certainly have the same effect that Carder did on the country and would accelerate the decline, leaving the public blaming the GOP for the mess and further guarantee our losing more seats and future Presidencies.
There is MUCH at stake here. Voting for McNasty out of fear of the other party, and being willing to overlook all the warning signs because there is no other option, is simply the very thing that will guarantee the end of the GOP.
It’s just that realistically simple.
I hate it when liberals say ‘can we stop using labels. But maybe we should call the gop and the democrat party liberal parties filled with liberals.
Once the 30 million illegals legalized voters, and they’ll be fast tracked for 2012 I’m sure, there’s no coming back. Anyone that stands in their way of the welfare check will be voted against.
Stretch that thought into the idea that he might be funding political campaigns for the democrats with all those profits. Who really knows who those Internet donees are. Someone could be manufacturing accounts for deposit.
Deliberately? Certainly.
But if (when ?) we find out WHO they are, then the motives becomes more clear. It may not be Soros. But artificially driving up (then down) prices after a country or industry is locked into a commitment IS a tactic that Enron and Soros have used before.
Soros is determined to destroy the US, and manipulating oil prices is a good fast way to do it.
I am a small oil trader..and I don’t drive up prices, because I never take delivery of a contract or store it waiting for a hire price. All commodities have futures..and they only help to stabilize prices. Usually the small guys loose, since they tend to follow the bubble up and down.
What you all need to understand that even a small shortage..can cause a violent up tick in real prices consumers pay(consumers are refiners and retail)..
Conservatives need to defend our free enterprise system..and until you start seeing tankers lined up full and waiting for higher prices(Like Iran maybe)..speculators are not creating the shortage.
I hedge on these..because I am a consumer of oil and want to make some of the profit to cover my growing cost of fuel for my vehicles..RV and car. With diesel selling at 4.64..and getting 12mpg..I can use it. So when I think oil companies or oil is selling cheap..I buy. So far it is working. I have more than covered all my fuel costs in a soaring situation.
So wise up conservatives..we live in a free country for the time being. I would like to see if freer and have less taxes..so I will take my best shot at voting for McCain and GOP.
I am a small oil trader..and I don’t drive up prices, because I never take delivery of a contract or store it waiting for a hire price. All commodities have futures..and they only help to stabilize prices. Usually the small guys loose, since they tend to follow the bubble up and down.
What you all need to understand that even a small shortage..can cause a violent up tick in real prices consumers pay(consumers are refiners and retail)..
Conservatives need to defend our free enterprise system..and until you start seeing tankers lined up full and waiting for higher prices(Like Iran maybe)..speculators are not creating the shortage.
I hedge on these..because I am a consumer of oil and want to make some of the profit to cover my growing cost of fuel for my vehicles..RV and car. With diesel selling at 4.64..and getting 12mpg..I can use it. So when I think oil companies or oil is selling cheap..I buy. So far it is working. I have more than covered all my fuel costs in a soaring situation.
So wise up conservatives..we live in a free country for the time being. I would like to see if freer and have less taxes..so I will take my best shot at voting for McCain and GOP.
You had me all the way up to your last sentence.
If only...you seem to think that madmen burst into flame. They don’t. Castro, Kim-jong-forever, and the Mad Mullahs of Iran prove it beyond all doubt.
I say we nuke ‘em! Let’s start over with an eye towards democracy and the rights of the human beings!
Oil will again be where it belongs today, at about $55-60bbl
You are absolutely correct.
You're right. It's just another cycle in the eternal chase of the almighty dollar.
In the old days, they were called "profiteers," and it wasn't unusual to see them hanging from lampposts when an enraged and exploited populace finally figured it out.
NEVER going to happen. We will never see $2-a-gallon gasoline again in our lifetimes.
As the brilliant Michael Lewis wrote once, everyone who is in a market is trying to manipulate the price. That is the whole point of being in the market.
The reason speculators can make a profit is because the price that sellars can sell for, today, is lower than the price that buyers can be forced to pay in the future. If there were no arbitrage opportunity there could be no speculation.
Of course they have an impact on prices. That is how speculators (anyone who is not, simplistically, a producer or consumer of the commodity) make money. That is the point of the game. The reason why they are allowed in the game is that they provide some value in providing liquidity and making it possible for producers and consumers to hedge risk.
I contend that because of 50 years of easy living and easy money, helped along by the rest of the world taking fiat in exchange for valuable goods and services, we have a very very large structural problem in the US economy. Before we can slim down, and live within our means, we have to cut out a lot of parasitical activities, including a legal system that takes 6 or 7 years to settle simple disputes, a governmental system where untold trillions go to beltway bandits to produce papers and viewgraphs to "inform" the policy and regulatory process, a regulatory scheme that encourages fee seeking and rent-seeking behaviors even though little or no value is provided in return for those rents and fees.
Of daily life in the average corporation, or especially daily life in a governmental or regulatory agency or law firm, what fraction of your time is spent doing something that provides a real direct benefit to a customer, client or taxpayer. Of your purported income, what fraction do you have voluntary control over and freely spend to obtain wanted goods and services, as opposed to services and fees that you are forced into willy-nilly.
The laws of supply demand cannot be revoked and if these devices, which can power homes as well as automobiles become the norm, the oil producers will lower their prices to wherever they must in order to sell their product.
Where will the hydrogen fuel come from?
How do they drive it up and make a profit?
It's the old formula. Buy low, sell high. Selling above your costs is the usual way you make money in any business.
Agreed, but consumers are trying to manipulate the price downward, while speculators and profiteers are trying to drive it upward. The gasoline we buy today is no better as a fuel than the gasoline we bought for a third the price 5 years ago. So we're getting nothing more for our money at all. Speculators add nothing to that product. They simply make phone calls, ride the market up, then sell when it approaches its peak, collect the money and wait for the next opportunity to profit by doing nothing. They CREATE a "demand" that exists only on paper, and not even a demand for the commodity per se but for the profits inherent in an upturn of the commodity's price.
They are the ultimate in parasites, and their profits always come at someone else's expense. They are the bane of capitalism, the deadbeat fat-cat the socialists always point to when they need to indict the free-market system.
Hydrogen comes from water.
One molecule of water is comprised of 2 atoms of hydrogen and one atom of oxygen bonded together.
That still doesn't explain how they drive it up.
He said he was going to take his best shot by voting GOP. Do you have a better shot? E.g., a way to take the nomination away from McPain? Or a third party with a decent chance of winning?
Voting is not a statement of principle. It is an act of political expediency.
That is why I said Hydrogen fuel cell “like”. Technology changes and we advance in a geometric fashion with esch advance fostering greater and more rapid advances that follow. Probably what the ultimate solution will be, if in fact there ever is an “ultimate” solution (as opposed to an ever evolving one) it will be something unheard of today. Or perhaps it will be the finding of the key to use cold fusion as a power source. This would give us the great power of the sun and seemingly would solve our energy problems forever.
thanks, bfl
So where are they keeping all this oil that they are supposedly buying up?
It will always take more energy to extract hydrogen from water than the useful energy we will get out of the hydrogen.
IMHO, you’re right on the money.
Thanks neverdem for the link.
Given the geometric progression of technology, it is impossible to make a claim like this with any certainty. Besides, I didn't say this was the answer. I said "hydrogen fuel cell LIKE" power source. What I meant by that was something other then fossil based fuel.
Given the geometric progression of technology, it is impossible to make a claim like this with any certainty.
Only if you have a weak understanding of physics.
Besides, I didn't say this was the answer. I said "hydrogen fuel cell LIKE" power source.
What else is "like" that?
What I meant by that was something other then fossil based fuel.
You mean a fuel source that doesn't use more energy than it gives? Yeah, that would be a better answer to our energy needs. Try something that actually has energy in it already, like oil, coal or uranium.
Given the geometric progression of technology, it is impossible to make a claim like this with any certainty.
Only if you have a weak understanding of physics.
Above statement indicates you know absolutely everything to be known about physics and that no technology can ever evolve that will provide a power source that will make extracting Hydrogen from water cost effective.
Have I got that right? If so can you explain why that would be true?
You expect a "hydrogen fuel cell LIKE" power source will use a fake technology like cold fusion? The last I heard they hadn't been able to duplicate it. You might as well wish for a car powered by a mini black hole.
Above statement indicates you know absolutely everything to be known about physics and that no technology can ever evolve that will provide a power source that will make extracting Hydrogen from water cost effective.
Where did I mention cost?
At least you understand it will take another power source to make the Hydrogen. Seems like that would be the power source to use, rather than taking a loss converting into hydrogen.
You are right about this, but because something has not yet been done does not mean it cannot be done.
Ok, so it IS about the cost factor, whether you mentioned it or not.
There you go folks, I've been saying this for over 3 years now, and you've all called me insane for pointing out the blaringly obvious fact. Now here is one of those hedge fund managers openly admitting the truth.
So go take your "market is god" idiotic mentalities that yoru political rhetoric pin heads on talk radio regurgitate and stuff it. This is no different than what Standard Oil was doing over 100 years ago, only now its not one single entity doing it, but a collusions among the wealthy themselves to hose the people.
Unfettered capitalism is not moral, its an economic system.. it is AMMORAL, the morality of the US system comes from the judeo-christian based laws applied to it. Capitalism left to its own devices has no issue at all with the captal holders screwing the masses for their own benefit. And that's all thats been going on with Oil now for about 3-5 years.
I thought we were talking about the current oil issue, not what we'll be using to power our flying cars in 1000 years?
Cost is always a factor. Losing energy to split water is no way to make money. Or power our country.
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