The FLDS argument will not hold up

[mercable]

Don't be an angry mob. Lets learn to follow the law. That is what keeps us a functioning society. We are all angry about this issue but for different reasons. No person would ever say they are for child abuse, but no sane person would ever say we should throw the law away to protect children either. There is a middle ground and the law is already written that is sufficient as long as the actual law is complied with

[mercable]

I am originally from Daingerfield, Texas but I now reside in Californis. If you have never been confronted by CPS you probably don't know what you are talking about. It is easy to read news articles and state and Federal Law and come to the wrong conclusion. For the record I am not a fan of FLDS, but I do strongly believe in the constitution and the law. Unfortunately the government has intruded further and further into our lives, often breaking the law themselves. It is so bad that even the Social Workers and Police are not fully trained in constitutional rights. The FLDS actually has a very strong argument if you bother to read the law and the Constitution. The law says that even if they had a warrant to go to the ranch and search for the alleged abused girl they still must follow the warrant. The warrant must specify where they intend to look and what they intend to look for. Some of you may be familiar with the plain view doctrine. The plain view doctrine states that if illegal objects are in plain view the police may seize them even if they were not included in the warrant. They may not seize anything else. In the FlDS case there may have been girls considered underage who were pregnant but that did not excuse the police from needing to seek a warrant for each girl they wanted to seize unless there was not time to apply for a warrant. This is the key issue. They had plenty of time to apply for a warrant to seize the children believed to be underage. They did not do it. In addition to that, the police decided to seize the other children as a member of one household without a warrant or court order where no exigent circumstance can be articulated. That is illegal in many ways. First the courts have already noted that the children may not be lumped into one household just because they believe in the same religion. For example lets say that your neighbor was a confirmed child abuser and he went to the same church as you do. So when they came to arrest him, they decided that because you go to the same church therefore you must be guilty also. They then arrest you and take your children. Seems absurdly ridiculous but you are still arrested and your children are still seized and you are fighting the State with its considerable resources. That is what happened at the FLDS ranch. This is not a matter of siding with the FLDS it is purely a matter of law. The supreme court has stated in many cases that in order to remove a child from their home without a warrant there must be exigent circumstance Exigent circumstance is defined as immediate loss of life or limb. Do you honestly believe a girl who is pregnant is in danger of loss of life or limb? I am not arguing that the girls should not be removed. Quite the contrary, of course they should have been removed. The problem is that the officials must follow the law or the case may eventually be lost for lack of due process. In every State the police and CPS are caught between the rock and the hard place. They are required to protect children and may be sued if they don't, but they must also follow the law during enforcement. It is a fine line. The police and CPS are overloaded with these types of cases and they are not properly trained. I know all of this because I have personally been similiarly attacked here in California. I have been reading the law here for two years. We actually have a good child protection system in place but the people administering the system need more training. By the way CPS brings actions against parents to terminate their parental rights but they get additional funding when they do it. Big conflict of interest that put parents at a very big disadvantage.

Please read the law before you spout off at the mouth about issues you do not understand.

[neodad]

Paragraphs are your friends.

[Soliton]

Registered today? Why not admit you’re with the Texas Gestapo?

[eyedigress]

“Less than “br” and greater than >” is your friend. It means break. :^) The “less than” sign is omitted for clarity.

[eyedigress]

I am originally from Daingerfield, Texas but I now reside in Californis.
If you have never been confronted by CPS you probably don't know what you are talking about.
It is easy to read news articles and state and Federal Law and come to the wrong conclusion.
For the record I am not a fan of FLDS, but I do strongly believe in the constitution and the law.
Unfortunately the government has intruded further and further into our lives, often breaking the law themselves.
It is so bad that even the Social Workers and Police are not fully trained in constitutional rights.
The FLDS actually has a very strong argument if you bother to read the law and the Constitution.
The law says that even if they had a warrant to go to the ranch and search for the alleged abused girl they still must follow the warrant.
The warrant must specify where they intend to look and what they intend to look for.
Some of you may be familiar with the plain view doctrine.
The plain view doctrine states that if illegal objects are in plain view the police may seize them even if they were not included in the warrant.
They may not seize anything else.
In the FlDS case there may have been girls considered underage who were pregnant but that did not excuse the police from needing to seek a warrant for each girl they wanted to seize unless there was not time to apply for a warrant.
This is the key issue. They had plenty of time to apply for a warrant to seize the children believed to be underage.
They did not do it.
In addition to that, the police decided to seize the other children as a member of one household without a warrant or court order where no exigent circumstance can be articulated.
That is illegal in many ways. First the courts have already noted that the children may not be lumped into one household just because they believe in the same religion.
For example lets say that your neighbor was a confirmed child abuser and he went to the same church as you do. So when they came to arrest him, they decided that because you go to the same church therefore you must be guilty also.
They then arrest you and take your children.
Seems absurdly ridiculous but you are still arrested and your children are still seized and you are fighting the State with its considerable resources.
That is what happened at the FLDS ranch.
This is not a matter of siding with the FLDS it is purely a matter of law.
The supreme court has stated in many cases that in order to remove a child from their home without a warrant there must be exigent circumstance Exigent circumstance is defined as immediate loss of life or limb.
Do you honestly believe a girl who is pregnant is in danger of loss of life or limb?
I am not arguing that the girls should not be removed.
Quite the contrary, of course they should have been removed.
The problem is that the officials must follow the law or the case may eventually be lost for lack of due process.
In every State the police and CPS are caught between the rock and the hard place.
They are required to protect children and may be sued if they don't, but they must also follow the law during enforcement.
It is a fine line.
The police and CPS are overloaded with these types of cases and they are not properly trained.
I know all of this because I have personally been similiarly attacked here in California.
I have been reading the law here for two years.
We actually have a good child protection system in place but the people administering the system need more training.
By the way CPS brings actions against parents to terminate their parental rights but they get additional funding when they do it.
Big conflict of interest that put parents at a very big disadvantage.
Please read the law before you spout off at the mouth about issues you do not understand.

[verklaring]

In addition to that, the police decided to seize the other children as a member of one household without a warrant or court order where no exigent circumstance can be articulated. That is illegal in many ways.

Seizing all the children, regardless of the age of the mother, which is what happened, is in effect presumed guilt by association without due process. What happened is the functional equivalent of state kidnapping.

If a false charge were to allow this (and it virtually does in some places) no parents or their children would be safe. The state abuse in this case is more serious than the problem it sought to remedy.

[Gondring]

Welcome to Free Republic.

It seems like you might have chosen an appropriate handle for yourself. How much was your price?

[Crim]

IBTZ!

[oneolcop]

Despite what the FLDS claims, they are not a church any more than the mafia is a boy’s club. IT’S ORGANIZED CRIME.

[Bushwacker777]

“Despite what the FLDS claims, they are not a church any more than the mafia is a boy’s club. IT’S ORGANIZED CRIME.”

Sounds close to “There is only one God and Mohammed is his prophet!”

[pandoraou812]

We actually have a good child protection system in place but the people administering the system need more training. By the way CPS brings actions against parents to terminate their parental rights but they get additional funding when they do it. Big conflict of interest that put parents at a very big disadvantage. Please read the law before you spout off at the mouth about issues you do not understand.

Please tell me where you are saying CPS is good? What state? I see problems in almost all the states.... I live in NJ & CPS or as it is called here DYFS is a HUGE MESS! The state has been trying to fix it for years & can't do it. Children die all the time in my state because it is not run properly. DYFS seems to go after poor to white middle class families because frankly I think they are too scared to go after the gangbanger/drug dealer's children. But thats my opinion.

I don't like how CPS went into YFZ ranch. Never did but in my stupid state DYFS aka CPS has to go out on any call prank or real. If they see any sign of abuse, real or imagined they will act on it. If its during the school year they go talk to your child without your permission. I am not ok with it. I think its wrong. However I also am totally against child abuse, rape & underage sex & teen brides & pregnancy.

TX CPS should have had a firm case. I didn't call names but got called plenty. I do know if I knew my neighbor was raping his daughter I would break the law & go over there & stop it & face jail. I think most FReepers are against child sex. This case is a MESS.

One problem I do have is I resent 100% paying for anybody be they FLDS, Muslim's etc to have multi-wives & tons of children. You want to believe you need so many wives to get to heaven then YOU as the MAN & father/husband support them or figure out some system to support YOUR family. It should not be put on the rest of us. I also think that if there are going to be marriages or whatever they want to call them the girls should be of legal age & they shouldn't marry to close relations because of birth defects.

I feel badly for anyone who is forced to marry not for love but because a so called leader tells them so. I feel badly for boys tossed out of their families. I feel for men who have had their families ripped away to be given to another man. I also think this case needs to be looked at more closely.If girls were indeed taken as "wives" at 12,13, 14 yrs of age I feel strongly that is wrong. However I follow the law usually & if the judges say send them back then that is what must be done.

It would be nice to see children returned to their rightful parents if indeed it is true that Warren Jeffs took children away from parents in other states. However people do crazy things in the name of religion. I believe the FLDS will do whatever they have to do to protect Warren Jeffs & their way of life.

Prayers for all of them & TX. And prayers that FReepers who were once friends can put this all to rest & stop the name calling & fighting. It is not doing FR any good. I've dealt with DYFS before when I took in my oldest son. I do believe we need CPS but I do know that you have some gung ho workers who will make problems where there are none. Since this case I will never open my door to DYFS until my lawyer gets to my house. I do believe there are some bad things happening in Warren Jeffs groups but all of this should have been taken care of years ago IMHO.

[oneolcop]

I live in along side members. I see how they operate. I've seen what happens to the kids and the young men who aren't deemed suitable for advancement in their hierarchy.

It's not really about polygamy (although that has its own problems). It's about a cult that makes big money through the use of "members" who are conditioned from birth to be subservient to their organization. The result is a sort of slavery, sexual slavery for the females and labor for the males. This is not to mention the inter-breeding that has resulted in a large percentage of the children being handicapped.

Then you have the welfare fraud aspect. In the county where I reside, the driver's license office has refused to issue state ID cards to members because of the fraudulent birth documents they routinely use.

In British Columbia, the "Bountiful" community near Cranbrook is an guarded enclave where "education" is handled by the FLDS. The BC government pays officials of the "church" for "home schooling" the children. The so-called "education" provided is brainwashing.

There is only one God, Mohammed is not His prophet, and neither is Warren Jeff nor any of the Blackmore clan.

[pandoraou812]

There is only one God, Mohammed is not His prophet, and neither is Warren Jeff nor any of the Blackmore clan.

I agree. Thankfully I don't live near any of polygamist sects that I know of. I just can't really understand how they live as they do. I don't share well & I hate being bossed around. I could never toss a son out of my house & nobody would dare take my baby to be raised by a sister wife. I would be tossed out on my rear very quickly. Do any of these sister wives ever just flip & kill one they hate? Its just too odd for me to even imagine.

[oneolcop]

A very few escape. For the most part they don’t want to escape. They are genuinely brainwashed. I know of only one woman in our community who got out. She has a “mission” to try to get other women out. It’s a lonely job.

[pandoraou812]

How very sad. Prayers she can help more to get out. Thank you for your posts. Pandora

[Bushwacker777]

In Muslim nations the dominant community regards Christians in general the way you regard the polygamists.

[Bushwacker777]

“The result is a sort of slavery, sexual slavery for the females and labor for the males. This is not to mention the inter-breeding that has resulted in a large percentage of the children being handicapped.

Then you have the welfare fraud aspect. In the county where I reside, the driver’s license office has refused to issue state ID cards to members because of the fraudulent birth documents they routinely use.”

Radical feminism sees a married wife and a prostitute as being the same thing. The 1950s model of the family could easily be interpreted to match the polygamists you describe.

As for welfare fraud, the state of Texas has not had any requests for public assistance from the FLDS until the children were taken away.

As for the county not issuing state IDs to members of a particular religion I see a lawsuit in their future. You can’t discriminate against a group in this country — Texas CPS has learned that the hard way.

WAY TO GO TEXAS SUPREME COURT!

[Bushwacker777]

Oh, and as for the inbreeding issue, from all reports these are very healthy children. Do you have any statistics to suggest that the percentage of birth defects for the FLDS differs much from the general population?

[stockpirate]

Well stated. I was one who posted concern about CPS, and the nut jobs came at me saying all sorts of trash about me.

Texas has ruled the children MUST be returned, as well they should.

[brwnsuga]

Muslims and polygamists have many things in common. Their disrespect and abuse of females, their need for power for sexual purposes and their exploitation of children. Perhaps the FLDS should move to the Middle East.

[brwnsuga]

Texas has ruled the children MUST be returned, as well they should.

The state will probably complete DNA tests on the children of the little girls and prosecute these “fathers” and would probably keep any pregnant child.

[pandoraou812]

Nope just from what I have read about & heard on TV. Why are they big lies too? Will you tell me that in closed sects that there are little birth defects? I know there are from working with the Amish. So then why would the FLDS be different? Fumarase Deficiency, Downs syndrome,cerebral palsy are not not uncommon.

http://media-dis-n-dat.blogspot.com/2008/04/dna-testing-reveals-birth-defects-among.html

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2005578/posts

http://blog.mrm.org/2006/02/polygamy-and-birth-defects/

http://www.childbrides.org/sex_KSL_birth_defect_is_plaguing_children.html

http://www.deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,635182923,00.html

[Bushwacker777]

“Nope just from what I have read about & heard on TV. Why are they big lies too? Will you tell me that in closed sects that there are little birth defects? I know there are from working with the Amish. So then why would the FLDS be different? Fumarase Deficiency, Downs syndrome,cerebral palsy are not not uncommon.”

Depends on the genetic makeup of the people that started the colony. Your own ancestors (prior to the Industrial Revolution) probably lived in villages with fewer inhabitants than the FLDS community has. Some villages had higher levels of certain defects, others had few.

Downs would likely be higher in FLDS communities for two reasons — women probably continue having children even if they are 40-something and secondly, they would not abort a child with it while most American women who are pre-tested and find out they are carrying a Down’s child abort immediately.

[pandoraou812]

That would make sense. The Amish wouldn’t abort either. I had a child at 41 & my doctors were worried about my health as I have hep c. Many of my friends & 2 doctors told me to abort. I didn’t & I have a perfectly healthy beautiful 8 yr old daughter who is the Blessing of our lives. Even if I had been told she had downs I still thought the Lord had a plan for me & I would have had Sassy anyway. Those friends who pushed abortion they love her dearly & now aren’t as quick to say abortion. Prayers for these children.

[CAluvdubya]

It would be nice to see children returned to their rightful parents if indeed it is true that Warren Jeffs took children away from parents in other states. However people do crazy things in the name of religion. I believe the FLDS will do whatever they have to do to protect Warren Jeffs & their way of life.

I'd bet we can all agree with this, pandy!

[pandoraou812]

I sure hope so. This darn case has been such a mess. And while everyone is busy calling names & getting angry its a darn shame we all can’t agree none of us like child abuse, rape etc. It really saddens me to see friends going at each other. I had to stop look at this long & hard & just say the law is going to handle it as it sees fit. And I am just going to pray & hope that it all ends well. And that FR can get back to the FR I liked way better before all of this! Have a great day! ~Pandy~

[oneolcop]

I'm not overly concerned about polygamy. I am concerned about children being sexually exploited. As to the issuance of state ID cards, the point is, in this county, we care about the legitimacy of the documents presented. They have to be legitimate.

That there are no documented cases of welfare fraud in Texas does not make it the same in say Arizona for instance.

The 1950s model of the family could easily be interpreted to match the polygamists you describe. No, it couldn't unless one has a distorted sense of reality.

Are your opinions about the FLDS based on what you're read, seen on television, maybe heard from your hair dresser's sister-in-law's ex boyfriend or heard on the radio?

Or are they based on what you've seen with your own eyes.

It's a crime organization.