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The Catholic-Obama Problem (Pope Benedict XVI instructs Catholics about pro-abortion candidates)
The National Review ^ | June 3, 2008 | Kathryn Jean Lopez

Posted on 06/03/2008 3:19:42 PM PDT by 2ndDivisionVet

Communion aside, there is a Catholic-Obama problem. Many Catholics, beyond Fr. Pfleger, will vote for Obama. It's not a problem of Communion-denying magnitude, but one they should at least know going into Election Day. McCain may be imperfect, but for me, even if I didn't have a laundry list of why I'm opposed to abortion, the pope explained why a Catholic cannot vote for a candidate like Obama long before most of us ever thought Obama would be a candidate for the presidency. In a 2006 address, B16 (Benedict XVI)said:

"As far as the Catholic Church is concerned, the principal focus of her interventions in the public arena is the protection and promotion of the dignity of the person, and she is thereby consciously drawing particular attention to principles which are not negotiable. Among these the following emerge clearly today: the protection of life in all its stages, from the first moment of conception until natural death; recognition and promotion of the natural structure of the family — as a union between one man and one woman based on marriage…; and the protection of the rights of parents to educate their children."


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Editorial; Philosophy; Politics/Elections
KEYWORDS: 2008; abortion; catholics; catholicvote; election; elections; mccain; obama; proaborts; prolife; vatican
The Pope doesn't mince words, does he?
1 posted on 06/03/2008 3:19:42 PM PDT by 2ndDivisionVet
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

Hasn’t this been the case for 35 years?

What’s going to be different this time? All orthodox Catholics have already made the move.


2 posted on 06/03/2008 3:26:38 PM PDT by prolifefirst
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

“The Pope doesn’t mince words, does he?”

No, he doesn’t. Thank God!


3 posted on 06/03/2008 3:27:52 PM PDT by fetal heart beats by 21st day (Defending human life is not a federalist issue. It is the business of all of humanity.)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

Faith sharing bump.


4 posted on 06/03/2008 3:29:19 PM PDT by Ciexyz
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

The Church is kind of stuck — having declared Iraq to not be a just war, to vote for either candidate with a chance of winning is to advance one or the other grave sin.


5 posted on 06/03/2008 3:35:23 PM PDT by steve-b (The "intelligent design" hoax is not merely anti-science; it is anti-civilization. --John Derbyshire)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

Good! Now why in the heck isn’t there a Jewish-Obama problem? I’ll NEVER understand why Jews prefer Dems over the GOP... NEVER!!! Are they just stuck on stupid?


6 posted on 06/03/2008 3:40:38 PM PDT by demkicker (In the minority or majority, I'll never stop 'kicking' dems)
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To: steve-b

There is no equivalence; on the one hand, abortion is an inherent evil, never to be justified in any case. War may or may not be just, but the decision is ultimately in the hand of civil authority, not the Church. While both the current pope and JP-II believed that the Iraq war was unjust, they do not have access to all the intelligence or strategic planning the Bush administration possessed


7 posted on 06/03/2008 3:45:01 PM PDT by I-ambush
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To: I-ambush
War may or may not be just, but the decision is ultimately in the hand of civil authority, not the Church.

That is a nonsensical statement. By that "standard", every war launched by Nazi Germany and Soviet Russia were just -- just ask Adolf Hitler or Josef Stalin.

8 posted on 06/03/2008 3:48:58 PM PDT by steve-b (The "intelligent design" hoax is not merely anti-science; it is anti-civilization. --John Derbyshire)
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To: steve-b
But Ratzinger did write the following in 2004:

3. Not all moral issues have the same moral weight as abortion and euthanasia. For example, if a Catholic were to be at odds with the Holy Father on the application of capital punishment or on the decision to wage war, he would not for that reason be considered unworthy to present himself to receive Holy Communion. While the Church exhorts civil authorities to seek peace, not war, and to exercise discretion and mercy in imposing punishment on criminals, it may still be permissible to take up arms to repel an aggressor or to have recourse to capital punishment. There may be a legitimate diversity of opinion even among Catholics about waging war and applying the death penalty, but not however with regard to abortion and euthanasia.

9 posted on 06/03/2008 3:57:28 PM PDT by Chesterbelloc
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

Sad thing is that many of the Catholic’s in this country will vote for him. Not the faith full ones, but the the Christmas/Easter cultural ones for sure.


10 posted on 06/03/2008 4:01:41 PM PDT by redgolum ("God is dead" -- Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" -- God.)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

Like this means squat. If even 80% of RCs took their religion seriously there would never be a rat prez. again.


11 posted on 06/03/2008 4:02:39 PM PDT by gost2
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To: 2ndDivisionVet
"As far as the Catholic Church is concerned, the principal focus of her interventions in the public arena is the protection and promotion of the dignity of the person, and she is thereby consciously drawing particular attention to principles which are not negotiable. Among these the following emerge clearly today: the protection of life in all its stages, from the first moment of conception until natural death; recognition and promotion of the natural structure of the family — as a union between one man and one woman based on marriage…; and the protection of the rights of parents to educate their children>

If she is basing her claim that Catholics cannot vote for a candidate that supports abortion on this, then it looks like she can't vote for a candidate who is also pro-capital punishment or pro-divorce.

12 posted on 06/03/2008 4:04:36 PM PDT by Non-Sequitur
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To: steve-b

Not non-sensical; the authority and responsibility for actions to ensure the public safety rest with Caesar, not the Church. I certainly do not mean that any war is justifiable, but that the prohibition against abortion is absolute, while the justifiability of the war in Iraq is debatable. I, for one, believe that the president is, in this case, in a better position to make the decision.


13 posted on 06/03/2008 4:19:06 PM PDT by I-ambush
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To: Non-Sequitur

No, because divorce is something that is a different thing from, say, insisting that two men can get married, which violates the natural order. And capital punishment is not prohibited by Church law; like war, it is something that is considered a last resort, only to prevent greater harm.

So while individual popes or religious figures may be more or less opposed to these things, or to a particular war or case, these are simply their opinions. The things that the Pope is talking about are things that violate the natural order and which are always wrong. Abortion is the murder of an innocent human being and is always wrong; homosexual “marriage” violates the natural law and is always wrong (aside from being impossible), etc. These may be things which a particular electoral candidate is trying to make acceptable to or even impose on our society, and in that case one cannot vote for that candidate.


14 posted on 06/03/2008 4:28:30 PM PDT by livius
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To: livius
No, because divorce is something that is a different thing from, say, insisting that two men can get married, which violates the natural order. And capital punishment is not prohibited by Church law; like war, it is something that is considered a last resort, only to prevent greater harm.

If you divorce and remarry without benefit of church-sanctioned anullment then you are living in a state of adultery and are forbidden from receiving sacrements. Yet that is not enforced at the level of church hierarchy. And the quote from His Holiness that is at the top of this thread speaks of the sanctity of life from conception to natural death.

15 posted on 06/03/2008 4:33:13 PM PDT by Non-Sequitur
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

Our Holy Father John Paul II has stated that “abortion and euthanasia are crimes which no human law can claim to legitimize. There is no obligation in conscience to obey such laws; instead there is a grave and clear obligation to oppose them by conscientious objection. In the case of an intrinsically unjust law, such as a law permitting abortion or euthanasia, it is therefore never licit to obey it, or to ‘take part in a propaganda campaign in favor of such a law, or vote for it.’” (The Gospel of Life, no. 73)

http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/politics/pg0062.html


16 posted on 06/03/2008 4:56:15 PM PDT by Straight Vermonter (Posting from deep behind the Maple Curtain)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet
“the protection of life in all its stages, from the first moment of conception until natural death; recognition and promotion of the natural structure of the family — as a union between one man and one woman based on marriage…; and the protection of the rights of parents to educate their children.”

Pretty much eliminates voting for anyone in the ‘Rat party

Pope Benedict even got a shot in for Homeschooling!

17 posted on 06/03/2008 4:58:36 PM PDT by kellynla (Freedom of speech makes it easier to spot the idiots! Semper Fi!)
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To: Chesterbelloc
Thanks for posting that. I wish all the peacenix in my parish would at least try to understand that.
18 posted on 06/03/2008 5:08:12 PM PDT by grellis (By order of the Ingham County Sheriff this tag has been seized for nonpayment of taxes)
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To: demkicker
“I’ll NEVER understand why Jews prefer Dems over the GOP... NEVER!!!”

The answer is pretty clear: Historically, Jews have been socialists. Just look at the kibbutzim: That is communism in a microcosm.

19 posted on 06/03/2008 5:25:37 PM PDT by ought-six ( Multiculturalism is national suicide, and political correctness is the cyanide capsule.)
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To: steve-b

B16 doesn’t want us to pull out either, per an article in the Catholic Register. We have a duty to safeguard the innocent there now and make sure things are ok before we leave. Which is what we’re doing.


20 posted on 06/03/2008 5:31:38 PM PDT by Patriotic1 (Dic mihi solum facta, domina - Just the facts, ma'am)
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To: Non-Sequitur

“If she is basing her claim that Catholics cannot vote for a candidate that supports abortion on this, then it looks like she can’t vote for a candidate who is also pro-capital punishment or pro-divorce.”

That depends. If by executing a heinous criminal lives are saved, the Church has pretty much turned a blind eye to that (kind of akin to Aquinas’ “Just War” proclamation). As for divorce, the Church just gives that lip service, because if it didn’t it would have very few congregants (there are a great many prominent Catholics who have been divorced, and the Church has largely ignored it unless some political points could be made). It’s like being married by a judge or a JOP (or any non-priest presider): On the one hand the Church theoretically holds that such unions, unless blessed by the Church, are adulterous; on the other hand, it does not excommunicate the parties (though it restricts them from the sacraments). Abortion, though, is a completely different matter, and the Church will not broach any compromise on that. Why? Because abortion is taking the life of the most innocent among us.

I’m a Roman Catholic, though not a very devout one. And I have some fundamental disputes with the Church. But, like Jesus, the Church hates the sin but loves the sinner.


21 posted on 06/03/2008 5:43:09 PM PDT by ought-six ( Multiculturalism is national suicide, and political correctness is the cyanide capsule.)
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To: steve-b; wagglebee; Kevmo; narses

The Church is not stuck.

Proportionalism teaches that the loss or damage to souls that is caused by one “issue” causes that issue to take precedent over others if the number of lost/damaged souls from the one issue significantly exceeds the loss produced by the others.

So, if one was to put all the lives lost from, let’s say the Iraq War since its beginning, it does not equal the lives lost via abortion in just a couple of weeks.

Furthermore, the Iraq conflict is not black and white, cut and dry. Some believe justification exists for it, while others do not.

Abortion is intrinsically evil, while war is not intrinsically evil.

If you add fetal stem cell research, euthanasia, homosexual marriage, and scandalized children to the crimes against life, which most proaborts like Obama favor, the lives lost and/or damaged from the crimes against life by far outweigh the harmful effects of all the other injustices/indignities combined.

Proportionalism focuses on souls, not issues.


22 posted on 06/03/2008 6:25:30 PM PDT by fetal heart beats by 21st day (Defending human life is not a federalist issue. It is the business of all of humanity.)
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To: Non-Sequitur

“If she is basing her claim that Catholics cannot vote for a candidate that supports abortion on this, then it looks like she can’t vote for a candidate who is also pro-capital punishment or pro-divorce.”

No, this just a recent reiteration of constant teaching.

Abortion is intrinsically evil.

Capital punishment is not intrinsically evil since the state has a right to defend itself against predators and those who harm others.

What does pro-divorce have to do with anything? Nobody dies as a direct cause of divorce.


23 posted on 06/03/2008 6:31:24 PM PDT by fetal heart beats by 21st day (Defending human life is not a federalist issue. It is the business of all of humanity.)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet
When reverend wright's diatribe against America ("God d***n America!")was still ringing in our ears, the Holy Father stepped off the plane and said, "God Bless America!"

He's not drinking the Kool Aid.

24 posted on 06/03/2008 7:13:33 PM PDT by the invisib1e hand (Obama's a front man. Who's behind him?)
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To: the invisib1e hand

Yes, and while Obama was preaching, “Obama, Our Hope,” the Pope came with his theme, “Christ, Our Hope.”


25 posted on 06/03/2008 7:20:26 PM PDT by fetal heart beats by 21st day (Defending human life is not a federalist issue. It is the business of all of humanity.)
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To: fetal heart beats by 21st day

That’s exactly right.


26 posted on 06/03/2008 7:23:47 PM PDT by the invisib1e hand (Obama's a front man. Who's behind him?)
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To: steve-b
Some within the Church have made prudential statements that OIF does not meet the just war criteria. Others in the Church have made prudential statements that OIF does indeed meet the just war criteria. There has been no Ex Cathedra statement condemning OIF as unjust.
27 posted on 06/03/2008 7:40:41 PM PDT by A.A. Cunningham
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To: Non-Sequitur; steve-b
This may clear it up the differences for you: http://www.catholic.org/international/international_story.php?id=27852&wf=rsscol
28 posted on 06/03/2008 7:49:35 PM PDT by redgirlinabluestate
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To: Non-Sequitur

The prohibition on divorce is enforced, because divorced and remarried people are not allowed to receive the sacraments.

Usually the other quote is “innocent human life,” btw, because an exception has traditionally been made for justifiable killings of the guilty in war or through capital punishment.

But you’re not getting my central point, which is that divorce may be a violation of Church law and of God’s will for marriage, but it doesn’t deny the fundamental concept. Remember that Jesus introduced the prohibition on divorce as a new thing, since divorce was permitted and even abused by the Jews. Nowhere, however, has there ever existed the idea that two persons of the same sex may “marry.” Hence, this violates a premise of natural law, and it is not possible to build or run a just society on this basis.

Capital punishment is, again, a personal opinion; the words of the pope (or their translation) are not statements of doctrine, and until that happens, the Catholic doctrine on the matter remains unchanged. Various pro-abortion Catholics have attempted to add capital punishment to the life issues in order to dilute the attention paid to abortion and euthanasia and to make it sound like they’re all the same (the evil Bernardin “seamless garment” theory). They’re not.


29 posted on 06/04/2008 3:10:17 AM PDT by livius
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To: 2ndDivisionVet; Norman Bates

Translation......Catholics in no way can vote for Obama. He is pro-abortion. Pro-baby killing. Pro-Planned Parenthood.

McCain is pro-life. Will not kill the babies. All Catholics should vote for him. I believe he will come around on the embryonic stem-cell research and not move it forward.

Vote McCain.


30 posted on 06/06/2008 8:44:00 PM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: Coleus; nickcarraway; narses; Mr. Silverback; Canticle_of_Deborah; TenthAmendmentChampion; ...

Please Freepmail me if you want on or off my Pro-Life Ping List.

31 posted on 06/24/2008 11:04:18 AM PDT by cpforlife.org (A Catholic Respect Life Curriculum is available FREE at KnightsForLife.org)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet; NYer; SE Mom

Thank you Pope Benedict

You may want to hear this as well:
Fr. Mitch on same sex and abortion re: Obama’s misuse of the scripture (No.15) from:

http://www.ewtn.com/vondemand/audio/seriessearchprog.asp?seriesID=6694&T1=threshold+of+hope

listen now
http://www.ewtn.com/vondemand/audio/resolve.asp?audiofile=toh_03042008.rm

download
http://www.ewtn.com/vondemand/audio/dload1.asp?audiofile=toh_03042008.rm&source=seriessearchprog.asp&seriesID=6694&T1=threshold+of+hope


32 posted on 06/24/2008 11:07:08 AM PDT by AliVeritas (Iron and clay don't mix. - Daniel)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet
No Catholic can vote for Obama!

The Catholic-Obama Problem (Pope Benedict XVI instructs Catholics about pro-abortion candidates)

Obama's Abortion Bombshell: Unrestricted Abortion....

NARAL Catholics Line Up for Obama

Editorial: Disagreeing with Doug Kmiec One More Time

State-Funded Embryo Research "Makes Taxpayers Complicit in Killing", say Bishops

McCain Meets Privately with Fr. Pavone - Says Constitutional Right to Life Applies to Unborn

Faithful Citizenship: “Catholic Vote” is very sought after

Has Obama dissolved his Catholic advisory council?

Commentary: Faithful Citizenship and the Formed Conscience

Catholic League: Where's Obama's 'Catholic Advisory Council'? [Not to be found!]

Right-wing Christians beginning to lean left (Misleading headline)

Catholics Debate Obama Vote

US Bishops Urge Voters to Give Priority to Life [Ecumenical]

Corralling the Catholic vote: Political necessity or pipe dream?

DOUG KMIEC: Catholic Reasons for Hope in the General Election

EDITORIAL: Why This Catholic Dreads the Campaign

The Catholic-Obama Problem (Pope Benedict XVI instructs Catholics about pro-abortion candidates)

Thoughts On ‘Roman Catholics For Obama’

How Obama's Catholics Will Dodge the Infanticide Question

Catholic Pro-Life Leader Feuds With Barack Obama's "Catholic" Backers

McCain and the Pope: McCain cannot win in November without the Catholic vote (Reagan re-visited?)

Catholics Cannot Vote for Pols Who Support Abortion, Except for Morally Grave Reasons: KY Bishops

33 posted on 06/24/2008 10:00:12 PM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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