Schleicher County Sheriff David Doran's relationship with FLDS has been severely strained in the aftermath of the raid on the YFZ Ranch.
Posted on 06/03/2008 10:09:31 PM PDT by Utah Girl
ELDORADO, Texas — He was the man at the gates in the white cowboy hat and the folksy southern drawl.
Schleicher County Sheriff David Doran was one of the few outsiders whom the FLDS would initially allow onto the YFZ Ranch, and he cultivated a relationship with them. That relationship has been severely strained in the aftermath of the raid on the YFZ Ranch.
"I did not have the power to step in and stop this," Doran said. "The state of Texas had an investigation. They had a call, an outcry of a child they had to investigate and we are there to support that type of investigation. Where there is crimes that are being committed, and outcries being made, we're going to go in and investigate it."
In a lengthy and frank interview with the Deseret News on Tuesday, Doran spoke about the raid on the YFZ Ranch and what happens next.
"We will still attempt to cultivate that relationship the best that we can," he said. "I know there's a distrust there. I didn't bring that distrust on. I didn't change my way."
Doran defended the April 3 raid that led to the removal of hundreds of children from the YFZ Ranch. He said no one knew going onto the YFZ Ranch how many children were there, or how many would be removed. He said FLDS leaders had maintained there were approximately 100 men, women and children on the ranch.
Hundreds of children are returning home today after the Texas Supreme Court and Austin's 3rd Court of Appeals ruled there was not enough evidence to justify the removal of all of the children.
The raid was prompted by a phone call from a 16-year-old "Sarah," claiming she was pregnant and in an abusive, polygamous marriage to an older man. Even today, Doran remains unsure if Sarah really exists or is a hoax.
The criminal case is progressing, and he expects charges will likely be filed against FLDS members — including sect leader Warren Jeffs.
"He is definitely a person of interest, obviously because of the warrant that was issued for his DNA and some of the pictures that came out," the sheriff said.
The following are excerpts from the interview:
Deseret News: Looking back on this, what do you think? It's certainly taken many twists and turns.
Doran: It has, it has, and the twists and turns are not over with yet. I feel good about it. The criminal investigation side is proceeding forward nicely. The Rangers are the lead on that. This deal with Child Protective Services...the thing is there were victims that were definitely found on the ranch and they were removed. The ones that are being returned, that was Child Protective Services' goal from the get-go is to find out who were the victims when they were removed.
This is no different from any other Child Protective Services investigation, it's just on a larger scale. It's an unusual situation, it's a huge situation they had to deal with. But that is separate from the law enforcement investigation.
Deseret News: Should CPS have done what it did, though? Is there enough evidence to justify removing 460-plus children?
Doran: Of course, I can't comment on what Child Protective Services should or should not do. I do know what CPS was up against when they were out there. They were the ones conducting the interviews. They were the ones making the determinations and giving those results over to the district judge which caused the mass removal of the children. We were there to provide security for Child Protective Services as far as law enforcement went.
Deseret News: There was such a huge response with sheriffs from numerous counties, an armored personnel carrier, snipers. Was there ever a contingency plan in place for the eventuality of going out on the ranch? You can't just call all those resources in overnight.
Doran: Yeah, you can. When the call came in, the plan was formulated immediately how to logistically go in there and do it in the most calm and low-profile manner that we could. What's being portrayed is an armored personnel carrier, snipers, SWAT teams. In all actuality, all those were called in in case we needed them. They were never used for the initial entry when we, myself, two Texas Rangers, a handful of officers went to the gate that night with Child Protective Services and served a search warrant.
We talked to the people at the gate. We told them what was going on. The extra officers that were there, were basically there in the perimeter.
Deseret News: Did you have a plan in place for if and when you had to go on the ranch in any kind of capacity for a warrant?
Doran: We've always discussed it, but we have never had a plan in place for just in case this happened. The state of Texas has always got a contingency plan in place. Then you get together and form a plan and get the resources you need. It's not like when they moved here we mapped out this big huge plan, just in case.
Deseret News: The FLDS have said they cooperated from the beginning. From the gate, everything. That they provided everyone that was asked to talk to.
Doran: No, there was a level of accommodation, but I can't say there was a full level of cooperation. They met us at the gate, we laid out what we had going on. We were held up at the gate for about two to three hours. When the leader of the group showed up, that's when the Texas Ranger who was the affiant on the search warrant, presented him with the search warrant and handed it to him and that's when we took Child Protective Services in.
They set us up at the school ... (CPS) put in a request to see so many girls, but that request was not carried out. It was in small increments through the night and not as requested by Child Protective Services. There again, that was a Child Protective Services investigation.
Deseret News: When did it get to be more of a law enforcement investigation?
Doran: Child Protective Services conducted interviews all through the night, I mean through the full night and up to the day. Law enforcement started getting involved and stepping it up and brought the perimeter in, just to a staging area — never at an entry deal — by noon the next day. A new plan was formulated.
Even then, because not all of the children that were requested to be brought forward was brought forward to Child Protective Services. They were not satisfied that these people were fully cooperating like they requested they do. So it was requested to do a residential to residential search.
That was conducted by Child Protective Services. That was conducted by law enforcement and there was a representative of the FLDS with each search team. It was still done in a manner that was calm. It was still done in a manner that was respecting their culture and we were still doing a low-key operation at that point. Keep in mind, I didn't cultivate this relationship over four years for this plan to unfold the way I did. I'm not the mastermind behind it, we were simply cooperating with Child Protective Services. It's in our lap. We had to deal with it. There, I was still mediating between law enforcement, the FLDS, talking to the leadership there and trying to keep things as calm and orderly as possible.
Deseret News: But then it got to the point where search warrants started being executed and evidence started being rounded up.
Doran: Phase two, that's really what I can't talk about. The second search warrant was by the Texas Rangers based on evidence that was located on the property during the initial assistance with Child Protective Services. That's when further evidence of crimes were seen in plain sight by law enforcement.
Deseret News: What types of crimes?
Doran: We're talking about teenage girls, underage girls that were pregnant or had children. That's when that whole thing started surfacing.
Deseret News: What did you think about the decision to search the temple?
Doran: Not my decision.
We were searching for a victim on the property. She has not been located yet. So the scope of the first search warrant was still under way, and the fact that they were moving children around the property and keeping them out of sight. Basically, they were avoiding Child Protective Services and a lot of those were underage pregnant girls.
In the search warrant, it covers every building and documents related to the crime.
Really, I didn't have a factor in it one way or another. As a law enforcement professional, when you're executing a search warrant issued by a district judge, you're going to carry out that search warrant. If that search warrant names every building on the property, then every building on the property will be searched. That's just the way the search warrant's carried out.
I knew it was a sensitive subject and culturally, it was a very sensitive deal. There again, when it comes to enforcing the law, and executing a search warrant and uncovering crimes — really law enforcement doesn't have a choice in the matter. The Rangers were in charge of that.
Deseret News: At one point did you start to wonder if this was a hoax? One court document filed claims that you knew going into this that Dale Barlow was in Arizona and "Sarah" didn't exist.
Doran: That is very incorrect information. That is information that's being put out there that is not accurate.
Upon initially approaching the gate with the Rangers, a phone call was made by the FLDS at the gate and they produced their phone to me stating, 'This gentleman is Dale Evans Barlow.' We never could get a full confirmation if indeed it was Dale Evans Barlow, we could not get full confirmation of his location.
You've got to understand we're acting under a search warrant and time is essential and we're acting upon a call. None of those things could be verified at that particular moment in time. A dialogue was made between myself and this gentleman that proclaimed to be Dale Evans Barlow. That still left in question, the victim Sarah. As far as we were concerned she was still in jeopardy, was still on the property and still in need of intervention.
What people need to understand is, even though we were out there, even for the fact that we were on the property and still looking for the victim — the victim was still calling in on crisis hotlines not only in Texas but other locations. Even when women and children were removed from the property and they went to the shelters, this person who allegedly was the victim was still calling and giving descriptions of the location, 'It just rained,' 'They have these certain toys issued to the kids,' which was very accurate and credible information.
So we still had to go forward like there was a victim. Child Protective Services, Texas Rangers, we were all still looking for a victim because there was an ongoing outcry. Even to one of my officers.
Deseret News: Do you believe the call was a hoax?
Doran: Hard to say. We uncovered a Sarah Barlow that matched that description, and based on their fear of talking to law enforcement, who's to say? I don't have the proof and evidence in front of me to say that she does not exist. I do know there's a hoax caller and that is being investigated by law enforcement. When that investigation is complete and that person is found to be at fault, there will be vigorous charges against her in the state of Texas.
At the same time, when we were told there was no Sarah Barlow out there with that name, we uncovered several and one closely resembling that description. I really don't have a good answer for that. I guess you could say it's still under investigation.
Deseret News: Do you believe that crimes were being committed out there? Before this started?
Doran: We know polygamy's going on. It's just uncovering the evidence of that. No, I had no knowledge of any particular crimes going on.
All I know is in the four years of my knowledge of this group, the four years of contacts I have developed, both in the law enforcement field and outside the law enforcement field, we do know there's evidence of underage marriage within this group. We know it's a problem within the group. It's something we were aware of when they moved down here and learned about the group. Something we proclaimed to them, up to giving them a Texas penal code and pointing out, 'This will not be tolerated in Texas.'
But no, as far as direct knowledge of that crime going on out there, over the last four years, I did not have that.
Deseret News: Yet you also had a confidential informant. What was this confidential informant telling you?
Doran: All I can say — and you know any law enforcement officer's not going to uncover their confidential informant — confidential informant is plural. This is a person, or persons, that I have relied on the last four years to educate me on this group. A person that, if something came up, I can call this person, run it by 'em and they're going to be in the know of what this means, or who this is, or what's going on in this particular situation.
This confidential informant did not lead up to this raid. This confidential informant had no part of that. During the search warrants, this person — persons, actually — was called upon to clarify some things, evidences that were uncovered and bring in some of the FLDS teachings that would match these particular evidences that were uncovered.
Those confidential informants were used as a resource of information.
Deseret News: Are they anti-FLDS?
Doran: These confidential informants are very credible and have a very neutral point of view on both sides. That's basically where I'll leave that.
Deseret News: Do you think it was a good decision to bus all of the children off the ranch?
Doran: I feel like they had to get them to a location where they could interview them in an area without a lot of influences. There was an ongoing law enforcement operation out there. Yes, if CPS was going to perform their duties, they were going to have to do it in a manner that was most conducive to their investigation. If they felt it was the best decision at the time, so be it. Again, it was acting on an order from a district judge.
Deseret News: You've spent years cultivating a relationship with the FLDS and the people on the YFZ Ranch. How do you think your relationship is going to be now?
Doran: I did not bring this on them. The call came in to assist Child Protective Services. We always assist. We pulled in the law enforcement due to the size of the operation. We pulled in the law enforcement that was necessary to carry out the operation. My job was support and logistics and communications. I guess being the sheriff of Schleicher County, and this is where their home is, and this is where the operation took place — naturally, I guess, I'm going to get the blame.
You know, that's a false blame. My relationship with them is I've always been up front with them for the past four years. I've had a good working relationship with them. At the same time, if they are committing crimes out there, which crimes have been committed and it is being investigated, then that is their problem. It's not something I brought upon them.
It's something as a law enforcement officer, we're going to investigate any problems, with any resident, within Schleicher County if we're called upon to do that. And we're going to use the resources necessary to get that investigation carried out.
So they can point the blame but they have problems within their community that needs to be taken care of. If there was no problem, there wouldn't be a lot of victims coming away from that culture doing outcries.
Deseret News: How do you think your relationship with them is going to be from here on out?
Doran: We still have a dialogue with them, believe it or not. They have a lot of anger towards me, and I guess I can appreciate that because they don't want to accept the facts of the situation. But we do still have communication, through my chief deputy.
We still maintain a level of communication, where if we have subpoenas that come in we have someone we can call upon. If Child Protective Services comes in, we can call them and they'll meet us at the gate. We still have some contact on the inside.
As far as our position goes, we have always been neutral. We're still neutral, we're just conducting a criminal investigation. I don't feel any differently then, than I do now. I have a job to do, we're going to carry that out. If there's crimes being uncovered, we're going to investigate those crimes.
Deseret News: The FLDS have requested 300 voter cards. You're up for re-election. How do you think that's going to factor into it?
Doran: I don't think it will be a big role in our local politics. Now, different scenarios could play out if they decide to run one of theirs as a write-in.
The community has always stood behind me during my last 12 years in office ... so I've always done well. After this operation, the citizens still stand behind me. The community during this operation, and there was a time for need, we called for that help the community came out in droves and brought love, volunteerism, monetary donations, shelter. The whole community came out and supported law enforcement and supported the women and children out here.
If nothing else, this has drawn the community closer.
Deseret News: Is there concern this will be thrown out, the fruit of the poisonous tree?
Doran: Law enforcement went in there at the request of CPS, they acted on good faith. The second search warrant was produced because there was obvious evidence in plain sight of crimes, that's acting on the second scope of the search. I feel that law enforcement will be fine on that.
I think there will be challenges, I can't speak on that. I don't believe it will hinder this investigation. That's something the Texas Ranges will be dealing with. They're the investigators and that's the burden they're going to have to prove in court.
Deseret News: What do you make of the marriage statement (pledging to no longer perform underage marriages) the FLDS put out?
Doran: All I can say is I hope that they're being honest about it and I hope that if Texas did not accomplish anything, at least we know underage children will be protected. Let's just hope they follow through with it and they're being honest about it. Time will tell.
To this day he doesn’t know if the phone call was a hoax or not. Ha! That is hilarious! His relationship has been severely strained? That’s another good one!
I don’t see how this sheriff can sleep at night or hold his head up after participating in rounding up all those kids at gunpoint.
Here’s a video about one of the foster care dumping grounds for the FLDS kids.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KheY7IP0Y7s
Yes, I thought the caption under the picture was just a bit understated. Their relationship has been strained. No kidding.
Good post, thanks.
There was another interview with him posted a while back. He’s a straight shooter.
Between him and the Texas Rangers, they may finally nail this enterprise.
In remote polygamist town, one investigator is trying to buy more time for young girls
It gives a good idea of the problems LE have investigating and prosecuting crimes by FLDS.
Keeping them from leaving the state during the investigation, the documents seized and DNA should make the Texas investigation and cases much stronger, overcoming many of the problems faced in Utah/Arizona.
Horrible... I guess this place was better than being with their own family in the eyes of some here.
If these rules were in place when I was a kid, my Mom would have lost all of us to the State... thank God this was not the case.
My daughter is alarmed by the threats to her freedom by the socialists who seek the highest office of this country... and her Father pointed out that he feared the same at his age.. but the freedom he had then (1960’s) does not exist in this country today.
We are on the slippery slope and just about to slide into the muck.
Yearning For Virgins Ranch
Yeah, it's really tough when there are still some folks out here who remember a thing called the Constitution, and respect that other thing called the law.
And have brains, to realize the lies they are telling, and/or their incompetence.
I really hope the responsible parties get charged with kidnapping. Taking a 37-year-old woman into custody by claiming she's a minor (despite ID being provided--and not running a simple drivers-license check to confirm its authenticity, if they doubted it) is flat out unlawful--without any "good faith" sanctuary in which to hide.
Beware the FReepers who are eager to give us a push.
Thanks for your reply.
I don’t see see a constitutional problem with the investigator in the referenced article. I do see a community hindering a justified investigation of criminal activity. I guess we read it differently.
This sheriff didn’t know didley squat, do didley squat, or take ownership of didley squat. “It was all CPS, I’m just an innocent bystander.” Lordy.
Folks, if your local sheriff wants to locate someone, he can do it. The idea that this sheriff couldn’t locate the guy mentioned in the article, just sounds lame to me.
This sheriff stood back and allowed CPS to run this whole operation. I wonder if he is aware that HE is the top law enforcement official in his county, or if he just gets sign-off from CPS every time he want’s to do something, or is ordered to do something.
When there is proof of child abuse, the adults in the home are generally taken into custody. In this case the children were taken into custody and the adults were left alone.
At the very least, if there is an offending parent in the home, that parent is ordered to leave the home. A judge can be involved, and refuse to allow the parent to return to the home.
Let’s see, swat, an armored vehicle, automatic weapons... yep, we sure learned something from Waco. I wonder if he had matches with him, just in case.
Schleicher County sheriff expects indictments in sect case
By Matt Phinney (Contact)
Tuesday, June 3, 2008
Saying he wants to counteract a "propaganda campaign" by the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, Schleicher County Sheriff David Doran this afternoon said he expects indictments in the case.
He also disputed claims by sect officials and spokespeople that the early April raid on the YFZ Ranch was anything but peaceful, denying, for example, a claim that infants were ripped from their mother's arms.
Doran, who said he is talking to only a limited number of media outlets, told the Standard-Times that controversial photos released of sect leader Warren Jeffs deeply kissing the 12-year-old daughter of ranch leader Merrill Jessop are "just the beginning" of evidence likely to be released in the case.
Doran said he expects prosecutors to seek indictments from a Schleicher County grand jury in the case.
The grand jury returned 18 indictments Monday, but none was "out of the ordinary," Schleicher County District Clerk Peggy Williams said this morning.
It's being consistently ignored that the church intentionally concealed who the "fathers" were. How do you implement your plan if the identity of the criminal parent is not known?
'Impeach Texas District Judge Barbara Walther Over FLDS Fiasco' online petetion.
That is why you have a confidential informant. The sheriff has had this person or persons for four years.
"This confidential informant did not lead up to this raid. This confidential informant had no part of that. During the search warrants, this person — persons, actually — was called upon to clarify some things, evidences that were uncovered and bring in some of the FLDS teachings that would match these particular evidences that were uncovered."
The CPS had no problem identifying the parents when they were forced to allow the children to leave.
I think you are guilty of believing the lies the CPS used to defend their actions when they discovered that Sarah didn't exist. I found the fact that the calls from Sarah continued during the raid to be very interesting.
In reading the Sherrif’s comments, it seems that the root of the CPS claim that the cultists were lying, being evasive, etc., is that they refused to produce the girl CPS was looking for.
The one who didn’t exist.
Justified? How justified?
TO start with, this person was on the phone, according to press reports for 30-40 HOURS. How much time did a Texas Ranger spend listening to this person? How many HOURS did the Rangers spend verifying that this was really a person who was at the ranch?
How much time was spent investigating this "Sarah's" claims when even the most cursory trace of the phone would have shown that it came from out of state and hence couldn't POSSIBLY have come from inside the compound.
Now, define justified.
PS. I read a press report that these calls had been recorded. Sure hope so. I want to hear a LOT more about this "hoax" "prank" phone call and CPS/Ranger connections to it.
I agree. Did you notice how much time he spent in disavowal mode? He seemed to preface almost everything he said with a disavowal of some kind. At least 50%, like he expects the criminal cases to crash and burn as well.
But now they have a Mt. Everest to climb because the DA isn't some nameless, faceless bureaucrat like CPS is. The DA presumably has to run for office and isn't going to do the LEAST little thing that's going to get him slapped down by the Appellate and Supreme courts like CPS did. The Rangers are going to have to have some VERY strong proof I think.
Did you catch the part where the Sheriff said that they were still receiving calls from the nonexistent girl, days into the raid? When the LEO's had total control of the compound and they had already removed all of the young women?
I also liked the part where the Sheriff disclosed that the raid started in the dead of the night. I also found it interesting that with an inside informant/s they only thought that there were a hundred people or so in the compound. I think that the Sheriff is lying about the informant to try and get the FLDS to point fingers at each other.
More to the point, I see a route to challenge the 2nd - and subsequent - search warrents.
Thanks for your reply:
>>How justified?
As in the article:
“...evidence of crimes were seen in plain sight by law enforcement.”
Remember the child custody, CPS, case is separate from the criminal investigation.
Do you mean the pregnat 22-yo, the pregnant 28-yo, or the 37-yo mother of four, all of whom were taken as evidence of pregnant teenagers?
Which evidence was in plain sight?
Expect lots of smoke and mirrors, investigation on track , indictments coming,making sure all i's doted and t’s crossed
just after the election all will be dropped due to the fancy expensive lawyers the flds has unfairly hired.
Thats how the Da will do it
Seems there are not enough non-FLDS citizens in the community to stave a major upset come next election if the FLDS community does indeed choose to flex's its political muscle.
The numbers seem inflated, from other articles that I have read.
But the theme is correct.
Thanks very much for your reply:
>>>Which evidence was in plain sight?
As in the article: “ underage girls that were pregnant or had children”
There is also the evidence seized in the searches, along with interviews and DNA, including that of Warren Jeffs. The FBI also executed their own search warrant. We don’t know yet much of the evidence in the criminal investigations, the DNA results I believe are due soon.
Utah, Arizona and Nevada are also pursuing subpoenas and warrants and evidence in related cases.
Here’s a fairly recent post concerning the legal cases against FLDS:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2022034/posts
>>>Do you mean the pregnat 22-yo, the pregnant 28-yo...
I’m not sure which is which, and again, much of the criminal cases is still being investigated.
Here are a few individual’s information, which was posted on another thread by Alice In Wonderland:
-Pamela Jessop gave birth to a baby boy (Jonathan) on April 29, 2008 while in custody. She is 18 years old and also has a 21 month old son (Matthew, born Aug. 11, 2006). Using the date for her birthday which she provided (Dec. 9, 1989) it’s been determined that she was only 15 years old when her first child was conceived. The whereabouts of her 22 year old husband, Jackson Merril Jessop, is unknown. He would have been 20 at the time of conception. Pamela was recently granted the right to remain with her children who are in state custody. An affidavit states that: ‘’Pamela Jeffs aka Pamela Jessop is not currently married to any man. Accordingly, Pamela has named Jackson Jessop to be alleged father of the newborn baby boy as well as her other child, Matthew Jeffs. The whereabouts of Jackson Jessop are unknown to the department and do not have any locating information on him. Until the paternity of the newborn infant is established, citation by publication through posting on the unknown father will also be required.’’
-Merilyn Barrow, age 18, didn’t identify the father of her 1½ year old son (Robert), but CPS think’s it’s Allan Keate, who can’t be found. Allan Keate is 55 years old and has 6 wives listed on the Bishop’s Record. Merilyn and her baby are listed with him on the Bishop’s Record. Robert was born on Dec. 30, 2006, a week before she turned 17 (her birthdate is Jan. 7, 1990), so she was 16 when he was conceived. Allan Keate can’t be found. He’s not legally married to her, and as a 53 year old man he was having sex with a 16 year old girl.
-Sarah Keate Steed Jessop, age 31, has six children (ages 7 months to 10 years) with her husband, David Jessop age 32. She has a marriage certificate and birth certificates for the children. During the court hearing for their children, he wasn’t in the courtroom. Why? Because he also has a 20 year old wife who has a 3 year old child. Priscilla Zitting Jessop (birthdate Feb. 14, 1988) was only 16 years old when her child was conceived (Bishop’s Record indicates she was 19 and her child was 2, as of Mar. 25, 2007). Men who are 28 when they have sex with a 16 year old girl who is not their legal wife go to jail.
Apparently that is not all he is lying about.
Doran: What's being portrayed is an armored personnel carrier, snipers, SWAT teams. In all actuality, all those were called in case we needed them. ... They were never used for the initial entry when we, myself, two Texas Rangers, a handful of officers went to the gate that night with Child Protective Services and served a search warrant.
But Midland County Sheriff out's him with this...
Sheriff Gary Painter of neighboring Midland County was asked to break both standoffs with his SWAT and an armored vehicle.
“They had the temple surrounded with their vehicles,” the sheriff explained. “We rolled the armored personnel carrier up and asked to be admitted and they complied." Other accounts say the sheriff put the options more bluntly: “Either make way so we can search or risking being run over.” Despite such confrontations, the sheriff reported no violence. “There was resistance. But that’s okay. Resistance we can handle.”
http://abclocal.go.com/kfsn/story?section=news/national_world&id=6077102
Man this guy is a real piece of work. Well he can't hide behind cop worship and that badge forever, folks are going to actually commit heresy and check the facts.
As in the article: “ underage girls that were pregnant or had children”
All of the other evidence you discuss depends on this one point.
Of the 36 or so CPS claimed were underage, all but five are adults. Of those 5, one is not a mother and has never been pregnant.
So all of the subsequent warrents depend on four pregnant teenagers.
Yeah, they are going to be challenged.
BTW, I very much doubt the DNA will be used for the criminal prosecutions. It was obtained illegaly.
>>>ust after the election all will be dropped..
I could be wrong of course, but I don’t think that will happen. Because the Texas Rangers are the lead investigators, the state prosecutors are involved along with and FBI warrant served and ongoing cases in Utah, Arizona and Nevada.
In the past FLDS has been able to disappear folks under investigation, hide records and witnesses, in addition to controlling the local judges and law enforcement.
There’s a decent chance that with the records sealed, the DNA evidence and the restriction of movement during the investigation, this time will be different.
Thanks for your reply.
There’s no doubt the warrants are and will be challenged in every way possible. They are challenging them also on clergy privilege as well. Yes, it will be quite the legal battle.
>>>So all of the subsequent warrants depend on four pregnant teenagers.
I’m not sure if this is legally the case, or that if it is, that this is a problem. I would think it would only take one, and from what little we know thus far, they seem to have at least that.
But again, we have scant info on the criminal investigation.
I agree it will be very difficult to prove, as it has been in previous cases against FLDS. It’s rare to have complainants, the complainants will stop testifying under pressure (as in one of Warren Jeffs trials), witnesses and targets disappear, records don’t exist, etc.
I repeat myself, but the records seized and the DNA could well make this time different.
I repeat myself, but the DNA was obtained illegaly.
Thus, it cannot be used.
I believe you will find that at the end of the day all of the DNA evidence will be thrown out. It is fruit of a rotten tree.
>>the DNA was obtained illegally
I understand your position, but this is yet to be determined in court, as with all the evidence gathered under the warrants.
thanks for your reply.
Thus, it cannot be used.
You may find this interesting.
"I did not have the power to step in and stop this," Doran said.
First degree B.S. Sheriff Doran knew the primary target named in the warrant was not at the ranch nor was he even in the State of Texas. Had not been in Texas in decades, didn't know who the non-existent "Sara" was and had never been at the FLDS Ranch in Texas.
Aspen attorney Gerry Goldstein accused law enforcement authorities of reckless disregard and unlawful taking of DNA and demanded a review of their actions.
At the crux of the 39-page motion that Goldstein filed Thursday in the Texas 51st Judicial District Court on behalf of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is a revelation that the man authorities were looking for, Dale Evans Barlow, was in Arizona at the time of the raid.
Then...
"Prior to executing the initial warrant, (Schleicher County Sheriff David Doran) was advised that Dale Barlow was in Arizona and not on the premises sought to be searched. In fact, prior to entering the premises Sheriff Doran actually spoke to Dale Barlow in Arizona by cell phone, confirming his driver license number and the fact that he was in Arizona," the filing says.
Barlow advised the sheriff that he did not know Sarah Jessop, he had not been to Texas in more than 20 years, nor had he ever been to YFZ Ranch, according to the filing.
http://www.denverpost.com/headlines/ci_9050932
Another lovely little bit...
Deseret News: At one point did you start to wonder if this was a hoax? One court document filed claims that you knew going into this that Dale Barlow was in Arizona and "Sarah" didn't exist.
Doran: That is very incorrect information. That is information that's being put out there that is not accurate.
Sheriff Doran STILL attempts to refute he knew before executing the warrant that it was bogus. He knows the cell phone record exists. He knew the warrant naming Dale Barlow was incorrect and that will destroy the "good faith" requirement to allow the introduction of evidence gathered from a warrant that is in error into a criminal proceeding.
It was taken by consent from CPS, acting in loco parentis, while the children were in CPS custody, illegaly.
Since the custody was illegal, the CPS had no authority to consent, and thus the DNA is illegal.
What the heck may I ask is the point of the DNA if the children are already home? What will it prove beyond the one child they are assuming different parentage of? It won’t prove fatherhood will it? Anyway, beyond that I don’t think the DNA will amount to anything in court for anything because the original seizure was ruled against in two higher courts. They demanded the DNA tests based solely on the seizure of the children and for verification. If the seizure was invalid, the DNA tests are as well. It will be thrown out.
You could be correct
I base my thoughts (and thats all it is) on having seen a DA up for election hold a hot potato milk the upcoming trial for all it was worth then drop when election behind him.
I do not think anyone wants trials unless airtight
The flds no trial no worries.
The sheriff I would not want to be him and be ask why he pursued a warrant with no evidence except anomius phone call he did not even take the time to determine where the phone calls came from a quick search warrant of calls and the phone company could of told him where phone was or if cell where primary tower was would not take long at all
did not run check on person who they had arrest warrant for had name and birthday if he had he would of found him out of state and a probation officer to call and check
But if he did those things he would of had to ask for a warrant to search for a woman who dose not exist and arrest a guy who is not there.
DA with questions about the warrant and it will be decided by appeals court if not Texas SC if he tries and looses he will be looked down upon by a lot of voters who want something done
I see a redo of the 1953 short creek raid at some point everyone will look for some way just to back out.
I am not saying no laws were broken I am not saying they were I just think they have got it so goofed up their best bet is back out and hope to retain enough leverage to stop any underage marriages.
That would be a win for both sides
The sheriff said something to the effect when she interviewed him that it may come down to that in the end. He too didn't dispute the numbers quoted in the news item. When I get time I'll do a search for some numbers on them.
But considering the CPS removed 461 (allegedly) under age children then the 1800-2000 number doesn't sound all that far fetched in the least. Who knows at this point. Additionally, other LDS members may choose to move to the Texas compound from other LDS communities before the election to help in their effort to make their case. That may rankle some folks around here but as long as they meet the voter registration requirements then who am I or anyone else to say anything.
Anonymous
Missed that one on spell checker
oooooh, you are in trouble. flds, not LDS.
;)
Done.
Thanks. I hope you help to spread the word.
I think you’re right. I hadn’t realized that grievous mistake at the time. Correction everyone: LDS was meant to be FLDS in my post #40. Please forgive this poor misguided sinner and please no more than 7 lashes with that wet noodle.
Girl reunites with mother - but no contact with FLDS leader
As of last night, it was reported 397 of 430 had been picked up - anybody know the current count?
cha-ching
Thanks for your reply:
>>>I see a redo of the 1953 short creek raid at some point everyone will look for some way just to back out.
Quite possible, the fallout from it is similar, not quite as big though. Also, there’s more awareness of the statutory rape - I believe this has increased dramatically under Warren. There’s also more and better evidence, more media today.
A lot depends on the strength of the criminal cases, and as usual a lot of it will be “tried in the media.” That’s different today also and will affect the political reaction.
>>>hope to retain enough leverage to stop any underage marriages.
This is what has happened in at least one recent case with FLDS. Certainly a possibility here.
Anyway, your point here and the following points are very good and well-stated.
thanks
Thanks for your reply:
>>Since the custody was illegal, the CPS had no authority to consent, and thus the DNA is illegal.
That sounds right to me, but I’m far from a lawyer. I just repeat what I read from lawyers concerning admissibility and valid warrants and so on. I haven’t read any lawyerly opinion on this point.
So, you could be quite right. I hope not though. It would unlock a lot questions.
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