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Sued Texas GOP ordered to follow convention rules (Ron Paul supporters alert :))
Houston Chronicle ^ | 6/4/08 | ALAN BERNSTEIN

Posted on 06/04/2008 7:51:35 PM PDT by traviskicks

Republican activists' Houston case warned state leaders will try to shut out grass-roots opposition at meeting next week

A Harris County judge on Wednesday ordered the Texas Republican Party to comply with state election law at its state convention in Houston next week after Republican activists alleged that the party illegally uses procedures to minimize grass-root dissent.

Visiting Judge Tom Sullivan issued the temporary restraining order on Wednesday, a few hours after it was requested in a lawsuit filed by activists across the state.

Represented by lawyer Gary Polland, a former Harris County Republican Party chairman, the group alleges that party leaders violated procedural laws at past conventions and plan to do so again. The next hearing on the case is scheduled for Monday.

Texas law says a political party's state convention must choose a permanent chairman before doing most official business. Polland and Wharton County GOP Chairwoman Debra Medina said the party instead elects a permanent chairman late in the convention, shutting off dissent beforehand about the selection of convention delegates and new state party leaders, the adoption of a platform and other actions.

"If they want to exclude the grass roots and control the process it's not right," Polland said.

Medina worked in the primary re-election campaign of her congressman, Ron Paul. The activists she heads call themselves "Goldwater Conservatives, Reagan Republicans, Robertson Crowd, Ron Paul Republicans, and, well, real Conservatives" on their Web site, www.fairconvention.org.

Texas Republican Party spokesman Hans Klingler said the party follows the rules and is willing to address complaints about how the convention is conducted.

"We are a rule-of-law party," he said.

The state convention at the downtown George R. Brown Convention Center will select delegates to the Republican National Convention and hear speeches by top GOP elected officials. Some Republicans in Galveston, Nueces and Parker counties want the convention to block the seating of delegates from those areas on grounds that they were selected in violation of party rules.

Without changing the way the convention is run, Polland said, the party risks alienating some of its grassroots supporters, "and 10 or 15 percent disaffected Republican voters means (Democrat) Barack Obama wins Texas."

Polland and Medina are convention delegates.


TOPICS: Politics/Elections; US: Texas
KEYWORDS: larouchies; paulbot; paulestinians; paulistas; ronpaul; tx2008
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Ron Paul supporters continue to have significant influence over state republican party gatherings. Perhaps the GOP will be pressured to actually pursue limited government?
1 posted on 06/04/2008 7:51:36 PM PDT by traviskicks
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To: Abathar; Abcdefg; Abram; Abundy; akatel; albertp; AlexandriaDuke; Alexander Rubin; Allerious; ...


Libertarian ping! To be added or removed freepmail me or post a message here.
2 posted on 06/04/2008 7:52:30 PM PDT by traviskicks (http://www.neoperspectives.com/Ron_Paul_2008.htm)
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To: traviskicks
The Paulites are a bunch of A #1 A-Holes...we've had to deal with them at every one of our WA state caucuses and the state convention.
3 posted on 06/04/2008 7:55:37 PM PDT by top 2 toe red ("Cackling hillary...makes her sound like she is mentally-illary." Jimmy Kimmel. " Uh...she is!" Me)
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To: traviskicks

This thread will be a $hitstorm before morning.


4 posted on 06/04/2008 7:56:15 PM PDT by jmc813
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To: top 2 toe red
The Paulites are a bunch of A #1 A-Holes

As long as he annoys the type of people who go to a political party convention, the guy's OK in my book.

5 posted on 06/04/2008 7:58:02 PM PDT by jmc813
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To: traviskicks

The national GOP convention could be very interesting.


6 posted on 06/04/2008 7:58:48 PM PDT by Man50D (Fair Tax, you earn it, you keep it!)
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To: top 2 toe red

Messing up your country club are they? :)


7 posted on 06/04/2008 8:00:22 PM PDT by traviskicks (http://www.neoperspectives.com/Ron_Paul_2008.htm)
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To: jmc813
And what type of people /person don't/doesn't go to a political party convention and then sits on their ass and attempts to insult those that do?
8 posted on 06/04/2008 8:06:09 PM PDT by top 2 toe red ("Cackling hillary...makes her sound like she is mentally-illary." Jimmy Kimmel. " Uh...she is!" Me)
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To: traviskicks
Yes, how did you know?

It's so frustrating...they just don't adhere to the appropriate attire, know how to hold a teacup with the pinkie extended just so, or even the proper etiquette when one is nibbling crustless cucumber sandwiches. Can you believe it?

Simply tragic.

9 posted on 06/04/2008 8:16:03 PM PDT by top 2 toe red ("Cackling hillary...makes her sound like she is mentally-illary." Jimmy Kimmel. " Uh...she is!" Me)
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To: top 2 toe red

Far be it for us Constitutional “assholes” to get in the way of you and your boy John McTraitor and your new world order. If you’re happy and you know it, shake your chains.


10 posted on 06/04/2008 8:16:11 PM PDT by RonPaulLives (I won't be a neo-pawn in the game.)
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To: top 2 toe red
And what type of people /person don't/doesn't go to a political party convention and then sits on their ass and attempts to insult those that do?

People that reek of awesomeness.

11 posted on 06/04/2008 8:17:57 PM PDT by jmc813
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To: RonPaulLives
...shake your chains....Move a little closer and I'll happily oblige you. ;^)
12 posted on 06/04/2008 8:20:25 PM PDT by top 2 toe red ("Cackling hillary...makes her sound like she is mentally-illary." Jimmy Kimmel. "Uh...she is!" Me)
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To: jmc813

You’re really funny...LOL! [literally.]


13 posted on 06/04/2008 8:22:48 PM PDT by top 2 toe red ("Cackling hillary...makes her sound like she is mentally-illary." Jimmy Kimmel. "Uh...she is!" Me)
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To: top 2 toe red

Same with Oklahoma and our precinct meetings, County, District, and State Conventions. They received a small percentage of votes but tried to become delegates to vote for Ron Paul on the first ballot when we are a winner take all state. They didn’t intend to play by the Rules and haven’t in most states so far. The Republican Assemblies Crowd in my state joined with the Paul folks but failed and the Oklahoma delegation will follow the rules of Oklahoma for winner take all.


14 posted on 06/04/2008 9:27:25 PM PDT by PhiKapMom ( VOTE FOR McCAIN 2008! Send Obama back to Chicago in 2010!)
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To: jmc813; lormand

lol, not without Lormand it won’t. (courtesy ping)


15 posted on 06/04/2008 9:41:57 PM PDT by traviskicks (http://www.neoperspectives.com/Ron_Paul_2008.htm)
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To: traviskicks
A Harris County judge on Wednesday ordered the Texas Republican Party to comply with state election law [...]

Can you imagine that?! How dare those Paulites insist on the law being followed?!

16 posted on 06/04/2008 10:29:33 PM PDT by Gondring (I'll give up my right to die when hell freezes over my dead body!)
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To: Gondring

It seems to me that most things annoying come out of Texas; like Ron Paul, Ross Perot, LBJ, the Cowboys, Jim Wright, etc., etc,.


17 posted on 06/04/2008 10:36:10 PM PDT by tenthirteen
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To: traviskicks

A friend (Huckabee supporter) who has been active in his R precinct for many years attended his TX county convention. He was not and is not a RP supporter, but he had never seen such rule-breaking by the party establishment.

The old guard are a bunch of Tories who definitely put party over principle.


18 posted on 06/04/2008 11:04:36 PM PDT by SecAmndmt (Arm yourselves!)
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To: tenthirteen

It seems to me you conveniently left one or two recent presidents and a vice-president out. Intentionally?


19 posted on 06/04/2008 11:09:04 PM PDT by logician2u
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To: PhiKapMom; SoCalPol
Your complaints -- and your style -- are so similar to SoCalPol's, I have to ask: are you related in some way?

Your first-hand stories, mostly unsupported by so much as a Daily Oklahoman article, should qualify you as the Queen of Anecdotes on FreeRepublic.

And Mr. SoCalPol has got to be a contender for King, at least for San Diego if not all of California.

20 posted on 06/04/2008 11:19:47 PM PDT by logician2u
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To: traviskicks

The State law is broad and does not lay out the rules and organization for the convention. That is why we have a “rules committee” and an “organization committee.”

From what I understand, the demand is that the Convention immediately elect a State Party Chairman rather than hold the traditional First General Session, with ceremonial proceedings, followed by Caucases, etc., with the current State Chair acting as temporary chair for the pledges, some guest speakers, party news and cheers.

http://www.texasgop.org/site/PageServer?pagename=2008_Convention
The Chairman is elected later, but before the final elections of delegates and passage of the Platform and Rules.

The difference will be that our Party Chairman will be re-elected on day one, rather than on day 2.


21 posted on 06/04/2008 11:30:11 PM PDT by hocndoc (http://www.LifeEthics.org (I have a mustard seed and I'm not afraid to use it.))
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To: logician2u

Mr.? King? LOL!!!
Not this woman.

Wrong again just as L Ron Paul


22 posted on 06/04/2008 11:51:55 PM PDT by SoCalPol (Don't Blame Me - I Supported Duncan Hunter)
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To: traviskicks

Forget the silly “country club” comments. You just show that your target is some strawman that you want to tear down, not a rule of law or the building up of the Party. You definitely don’t seem to identify yourself as a Republican.

If we vote on the permanent Convention Chairman at the first general session, rather than at the second, their lawsuit will causing practical problems for volunteers who have to pay for hotel rooms and leave jobs and other obligations to attend the convention.

Since we have to travel from Comal County to Houston, that extra 2 to 3 hours of lee-way before it is necessary for us to cast a vote, will make a real difference. For those of us who planned to drive up on Thursday morning, needing a quorum and having that first official vote at 3 PM is much better than at 12 noon. They’ll either get to leave the house earlier on Thursday in order to absolutely be on time for the opening prayers, or pay for an additional hotel night and meals away from home.

Thanks a lot notfair and all. Because we had our State Convention training for our County Wednesday night, before this ruling came in, I’ll have to call all the delegates and alternates and let them know what it’s going to cost them not to miss that first official vote. And I’ll be sure and let our delegates know which candidate(s) and their supporters we have to thank for the extra time and money.

The way things stand, if we are not absolutely on time and in our seats at 12 noon, no harm done. If things change because of some judge’s ruling, delegates will need to be registered and organized before 12 noon.

Our delegates and alternates usually organize at our first SD Caucus, so that we know who is present and can seat the alternates to cover for any delegates who are not present. The first votes for our delegates are usually to elect the permanent member for our Senatorial District of the rules, platform, organization, and credentials committees - not the permanent chairman of the Convention.

If the vote for the permanent Convention chairman is taken at the first general session we will have to meet as a County delegation before hand, sometime between when the 9 AM Registration opens and the 12 Noon beginning of the First General Session. Where are we going to hold this meeting? It sure is easier in the rooms for the SD caucus than it will be to have to arrange for a room or just try to work it out in the big meeting hall, with the delegates and alternates spread out much more.


23 posted on 06/05/2008 12:24:12 AM PDT by hocndoc (http://www.LifeEthics.org (I have a mustard seed and I'm not afraid to use it.))
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To: logician2u

It seems to me that they were left out; however, it also seems to me that they are NOT original Texans, but imports from a certain New England state that is a far way from the legendary Texas. All those quoted by me, I suspect, are Texan born Texans.


24 posted on 06/05/2008 1:56:03 AM PDT by tenthirteen
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To: traviskicks

Again, having an extra day to debate who will be the State Chairman and who will be the National delegates — just how does this stifle grass roots activists?

If I recall, it took me days to figure out

The temporary credentials/platform/organization and rules committees meet on Wednesday and Thursday, before the opening session. Any delegate or alternate can attend as a guest. The permanent committee members are elected in that first Senate District Caucus, but the actual reports are not adopted until after we elect the Party Chairman on Thursday and the Permanent Committees meet on Thursday night (again, the grass roots members may attend these as guests).


25 posted on 06/05/2008 5:59:13 AM PDT by hocndoc (http://www.LifeEthics.org (I have a mustard seed and I'm not afraid to use it.))
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To: top 2 toe red
It's so frustrating...they just don't adhere to the appropriate attire, know how to hold a teacup with the pinkie extended just so, or even the proper etiquette when one is nibbling crustless cucumber sandwiches. Can you believe it?

Yes, it is this lack of civility and class that is destroying American culture. Like it or not, the country club culture is what runs this country, provides jobs, and pays the majority of taxes to support so many that get to enjoy so much that they could not without the country club culture.
26 posted on 06/05/2008 6:11:11 AM PDT by TexasGunLover ("Either you're with us or you're with the terrorists."-- President George W. Bush)
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To: TexasGunLover
Yes, it is this lack of civility and class that is destroying American culture. Like it or not, the country club culture is what runs this country, provides jobs, and pays the majority of taxes to support so many that get to enjoy so much that they could not without the country club culture.

You sound like a Faber College Omega.

27 posted on 06/05/2008 6:49:32 AM PDT by jmc813
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To: RonPaulLives; OrthodoxPresbyterian; George W. Bush; Revelation 911; NapkinUser; DreamsofPolycarp; ..

Let freedom Ping! Or else shake your chains!


28 posted on 06/05/2008 7:13:49 AM PDT by CJ Wolf (freepmail me to join the official Ron Paul 'let freedom ping list')
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To: jmc813
Take it as you will... I'm tired of carrying so many other's burden, as I'm sure so many other Americans are. I'm tired of welfare handed out, like the tax stimulus checks, when I don't get squat.

Our culture is under attack, whether it be blue collar or white collar and removal of etiquette and common civility are destroying this country.
29 posted on 06/05/2008 7:35:34 AM PDT by TexasGunLover ("Either you're with us or you're with the terrorists."-- President George W. Bush)
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To: Paleo Conservative

Ping!


30 posted on 06/05/2008 7:44:37 AM PDT by SwinneySwitch (US Constitution Article 4 Section 4..shall protect each of them against Invasion...domestic Violence)
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To: traviskicks

2008 Texas Republican Primary

Candidate Votes Percentage Delegates

John McCain 697,767 51.21% 80

Mike Huckabee 518,002 38.02% 16

Ron Paul 66,360 4.87% 0

Mitt Romney 27,264 2.00% 0
Fred Thompson 11,503 0.84% 0
Alan Keyes 8,260 0.60% 0
Duncan Hunter 8,222 0.60% 0
Rudy Giuliani 6,038 0.44% 0
Hugh Cort 728 0.05% 0
Hoa Tran 604 0.04% 0
Uncommitted 17,574 1.29% 0
Total 1,362,322 100% 96


31 posted on 06/05/2008 7:58:31 AM PDT by SwinneySwitch (US Constitution Article 4 Section 4..shall protect each of them against Invasion...domestic Violence)
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To: tenthirteen
It seems to me that most things annoying come out of Texas; like Ron Paul, Ross Perot, LBJ, the Cowboys, Jim Wright, etc., etc,.

As a Pittsburgh Steelers fan, i can agree with most of that.

Ron Paul gets a pass cause he's originally from Pittsburgh, and did pretty well in our primary.

32 posted on 06/05/2008 10:12:24 AM PDT by Calvinist_Dark_Lord ((I have come here to kick @$$ and chew bubblegum...and I'm all outta bubblegum! ~Roddy Piper))
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To: traviskicks

Houston Comical is so gleeful about the Paulbots’ legal trick that they posted the same story on-line under 3 different headlines. Only 2 got posted on FR.

Ron Paul and Gary Polland are going to reap a whirlwind of Republican anger over trying to disrupt the convention. They won’t be able to run for dog catcher after this.


33 posted on 06/05/2008 10:48:28 AM PDT by anymouse
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To: TexasGunLover

;^)


34 posted on 06/05/2008 12:36:50 PM PDT by top 2 toe red ("Cackling hillary...makes her sound like she is mentally-illary." Jimmy Kimmel. "Uh...she is!" Me)
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To: TexasGunLover

“the country club culture is what runs this country”

True

“provides jobs, and pays the majority of taxes to support so many that get to enjoy so much that they could not without the country club culture”

BS


35 posted on 06/05/2008 1:06:06 PM PDT by SecAmndmt (Arm yourselves!)
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To: anymouse; traviskicks
Ron Paul and Gary Polland are going to reap a whirlwind of Republican anger over trying to disrupt the convention. They won’t be able to run for dog catcher after this.

Paul has done just fine in his district WITHOUT support of the Republican Party apparatus. Last election he took 60% of the vote ~and how did the rest of the Republican Party do in that election? i believe that he has twice run unopposed by any Democrat.

Chris Peden didn't have a chance, despite party support.

All the Republicans would manage to do is to damage themselves if they would choose such a foolish course.

36 posted on 06/05/2008 1:34:34 PM PDT by Calvinist_Dark_Lord ((I have come here to kick @$$ and chew bubblegum...and I'm all outta bubblegum! ~Roddy Piper))
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To: SecAmndmt
BS

How many poor people have provided a job for you?
37 posted on 06/05/2008 1:44:30 PM PDT by TexasGunLover ("Either you're with us or you're with the terrorists."-- President George W. Bush)
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To: TexasGunLover

Are you claiming that every employer is a socially liberal, globalist, big government, anti-gun elitist? The country club set is considered by most conservatives to be the Rockefeller Republican wing.


38 posted on 06/05/2008 2:17:31 PM PDT by SecAmndmt (Arm yourselves!)
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To: SecAmndmt
Are you claiming that every employer is a socially liberal, globalist, big government, anti-gun elitist?

No, I am claiming just the opposite. The poor do not make our economy work, the rich do. Here in the south, the country club set has nothing in common with the Rockefeller way of life.
39 posted on 06/05/2008 2:23:38 PM PDT by TexasGunLover ("Either you're with us or you're with the terrorists."-- President George W. Bush)
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To: anymouse

Your characterization of grassroots conservative and constitutionalist Republicans wanting the party establishment to follow the rules as being “disruptive” says a lot about you.

The current Republican (Tory) party can either reform its ways or be destined for oblivion. I’m coming to the conclusion that some of you Tories would prefer the latter.


40 posted on 06/05/2008 2:23:38 PM PDT by SecAmndmt (Arm yourselves!)
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To: SecAmndmt; anymouse

Baloney, SecAmndmt, the whole lawsuit is a power play, not a move that’s “grassroots conservative and constitutionalist.” There’s a difference in definitions of the words in the law and a desire to subvert by lawsuit rather than resolutions and process, that’s all.

Why not put forward a resolution at the rules or platform committee? Why cost the Party money through a lawsuit, why call “the establishment” “Tories,” unless you are disruptive?

Have you read the platform of the Republican Party of Texas? Who do you think wrote that platform? Where do you come off calling names?

As I asked earlier, exactly how will voting for the chair at the first session empower the “grassroots conservative and constitutionalist” more than holding the votes to Friday morning? I told you how it will cost each of the delegates and alternates.

I predict that the lawsuit will end the fussing that we’ve been having over which wing - which group of would-be leaders - of the Party will lead. When our Delegates hear about it, they/we will vote down the disrupters at the first chance we get. I, for one, will be at the microphone to speak against any candidates put forward by Medina, Polland and their cohorts.


41 posted on 06/05/2008 2:55:22 PM PDT by hocndoc (http://www.LifeEthics.org (I have a mustard seed and I'm not afraid to use it.))
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To: hocndoc

Hear Hear!

(I’m trying to sound like a Tory.^)


42 posted on 06/05/2008 5:57:43 PM PDT by SwinneySwitch (US Constitution Article 4 Section 4..shall protect each of them against Invasion...domestic Violence)
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To: hocndoc

well, I was responding more to that other poster who started off the thread by calling ron paul supporters ‘a-holes’. So the ‘country club’ comment was more directed at him. I am a republican, and have been for some 5 years. I was a poll watcher in north carolina in 2004 and volunteered for the orange county republican candidates that year. Since then, no doubt, my views have become more libertarian and I’ve been supporting Ron Paul out here in NV quite strongly.

I think, unfortunately, Ron Paul supporters often unecessarily create conflict with the Republican party establishment. They view them suspiciously and assign intentions when most state republican leadership actually wants to welcome them to the party and otherwise just wants to hold events in timely and professional manners. Not all Ron supporters are like this, many if not most are established republicans, some of whom are already part of the party leadership. Occasionally RP supporters have good reason to direct angst at party leadership. Which was the case here in Texas, I don’t know; since they got a judge to agree with them, sounds like the latter.

But the truth is that in many cases political conventions and party meetings are social clubs, people see old friends and make new friends and sort of forget about the purpose of it all, become ideologically complacent. The Ron Paul supporters are lighting a fire under the GOP. I think the best would be if we need to work together to advance liberty and the Republican party (the two used to be synonymous).


43 posted on 06/05/2008 7:27:15 PM PDT by traviskicks (http://www.neoperspectives.com/Ron_Paul_2008.htm)
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To: Calvinist_Dark_Lord

Apparently you didn’t bother to read for comprehension. The 2008 Primary favored RP and was a tough hill for an inexperienced campaigner Peden, who still garnered a significant number of votes. Voters in the 2010 Primary will remember RP’s supporters shenanigans at the County and State (and potentially at the National) conventions and they will hold him accountable.

My guess is that RP won’t even run in 2010 and will attempt to anoint an heir apparent to succeed him (if it is who I suspect, that candidate will be trounced when word gets out about his role in all of this.)

Polland has been lusting over higher office for some time, but this will sink his dreams. those who previously respected him, will see him as a RP toady and shun him.


44 posted on 06/05/2008 9:32:19 PM PDT by anymouse
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To: traviskicks

Did anyone think that the RPT must function under the 2006 Platform and Rules?

The Chair, etc., can’t change rules passed by the Party.

I know that our County delegates and alternates are usually the most organized in our SD and CD. However, we do count on getting all our ducks in a row at the SD Caucus, rather than at the First General Session.

I highly recommend reading our Platform, available by link on this page:
http://www.texasgop.org/site/PageServer?pagename=library_home


45 posted on 06/05/2008 9:39:34 PM PDT by hocndoc (http://www.LifeEthics.org (I have a mustard seed and I'm not afraid to use it.))
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To: anymouse
Apparently you didn’t bother to read for comprehension. The 2008 Primary favored RP and was a tough hill for an inexperienced campaigner Peden, who still garnered a significant number of votes. Voters in the 2010 Primary will remember RP’s supporters shenanigans at the County and State (and potentially at the National) conventions and they will hold him accountable.

In light of the fact that Paul took 70% of the Republican vote against Peden, AND in light of the national exposure that Paul's views got, it would appear that quite a few of those Paul supporters are from his own district. Your observation is mere "wishful thinking" which does not have a basis in reality.

Paul MAY give up his seat, he's not young, but it is highly unrealistic to believe that the Republican establishment is going to be able to remove him from that seat.

My guess is that RP won’t even run in 2010 and will attempt to anoint an heir apparent to succeed him (if it is who I suspect, that candidate will be trounced when word gets out about his role in all of this.)

Perhaps, perhaps not. i don't have any insights into his plans. Unless Paul states them, this is just more guess work posing as analysis.

Polland has been lusting over higher office for some time, but this will sink his dreams. those who previously respected him, will see him as a RP toady and shun him.

As a Libertarian Party member (who did NOT change registration to vote for Paul in my state's closed primary), i know nothing of Polland, and really don't care. You may be right, or making yet another guess.

46 posted on 06/06/2008 10:12:45 AM PDT by Calvinist_Dark_Lord ((I have come here to kick @$$ and chew bubblegum...and I'm all outta bubblegum! ~Roddy Piper))
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To: hocndoc

Baloney? It isn’t just RP supporters who have witnessed some of the power plays by the local R party establishment. As I posted in other threads, a friend (Huckabee supporter) who has been active in the Texas R party for years watched the local county chair break the rules several times in order to prevent decent conservative resolutions (eg getting rid of the income tax) from being brought up by RP delegates and others. Conservatives should be leaders in supporting principles and rules. Republicans who defend or justify rule-breaking in order to protect the party establishment are not conservatives.


47 posted on 06/06/2008 11:14:12 AM PDT by SecAmndmt (Arm yourselves!)
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To: SecAmndmt

You obviously have heard a lot of stories, but haven’t given any real specifics. (Who, where, when?)

Nor have you read the Platform. http://www.texasgop.org/site/DocServer/2006_Plat_with_TOC_2.pdf?docID=2022
The Republican Party of Texas Platform already calls for the end of the income tax and the repeal of the 16th Amendment. See the top of page 24.


48 posted on 06/06/2008 3:02:59 PM PDT by hocndoc (http://www.LifeEthics.org (I have a mustard seed and I'm not afraid to use it.))
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To: hocndoc

“Nor have you read the Platform.”

Not true, and not relevant to the issue at hand.


49 posted on 06/06/2008 3:05:23 PM PDT by SecAmndmt (Arm yourselves!)
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To: SecAmndmt

Of course the Platform is relevant. Why put forward a resolution to end the IRS and income tax, when it’s already in there?


50 posted on 06/06/2008 5:29:57 PM PDT by hocndoc (http://www.LifeEthics.org (I have a mustard seed and I'm not afraid to use it.))
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