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Drivers Seek Mileage Boost From Hydrogen, Oxygen Bubbles
Newhouse News ^ | 6/10/2008 | Tim Knauss

Posted on 06/11/2008 7:44:53 AM PDT by Incorrigible

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At least it's a practical way to generate hydrogen!

 

1 posted on 06/11/2008 7:44:53 AM PDT by Incorrigible
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To: Incorrigible
Using a HHO (Brown's gas) generator works. I have friends getting 25-40% better milage with that alone. We are going to put one on my sons older PU truck before I try it on our newer vehicles.
2 posted on 06/11/2008 7:47:44 AM PDT by Jeff Head (Freedom is not free...never has been, never will be. (www.dragonsfuryseries.com))
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To: Incorrigible

What a load of BS. If it worked, Ford or GM would have tested it a few weeks ago and already putting it into their cars.


3 posted on 06/11/2008 7:48:28 AM PDT by Ron Jeremy (sonic)
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To: Incorrigible

This may be about the 20th thread, but it is the best explanation so far. This device will void your car warranty and your engine might be damaged, but it has potential. Burning characteristics of fuel with an unknown amount of added hydrogen are highly unpredictable.


4 posted on 06/11/2008 7:51:05 AM PDT by RightWhale (I will veto all beers)
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To: Incorrigible
At least it's a practical expensive way to generate hydrogen! Refineries are one of the largest users of hydrogen. (behind NASA). Electrolysis is very expensive (energy intensive) compared to methods like steam reforming of natural gas.
5 posted on 06/11/2008 7:51:14 AM PDT by thackney (life is fragile, handle with prayer)
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To: Jeff Head

BKMRK.


6 posted on 06/11/2008 7:51:55 AM PDT by FlashBack (www.proudpatriots.org/www.woundedwarriorproject.org/www.moveamericaforward.org)
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To: Incorrigible

I smell a Hindenburg coming on.

“Oh the humanities!”


7 posted on 06/11/2008 7:52:21 AM PDT by Conspiracy Guy (I voted Republican because no Conservatives were running.)
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To: Jeff Head

The problem with some of these units is they might “work” as far fuel economy is concerned but also increase nitrogen oxide (NOx), a big no-no for a production, EPA certified vehicle.

A “private” person might not care...


8 posted on 06/11/2008 7:55:01 AM PDT by AmericaUnited
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To: Incorrigible
Years ago,I talked to a friend that made the oxygen for atomic powered submarines. He said that the hydrogen and oxygen mixture, that that was made from the water was so explosive that extreme care was taken when making oxygen.

Anybody know if this is true or not.

I would hate to blow up my car while driving down the freeway.

9 posted on 06/11/2008 7:56:00 AM PDT by fproy2222
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To: Incorrigible
I also wander what the computer that controls my engine will think about it.
10 posted on 06/11/2008 7:59:00 AM PDT by fproy2222
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To: Incorrigible

So the first law of thermodynamics is no longer true? The perpetual motion machine is certain to follow..


11 posted on 06/11/2008 8:02:46 AM PDT by IamConservative (Character: What you do when no one is looking.)
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To: Incorrigible

I was playing around with same kind of thing. I took a plastic tube and mounted some spark plugs, then to a distributor which was then hooked up by a belt to an electric motor.

I then metered some water in one end.

What happened was on the exit end of the set up was I generated some kind of plasma. I could hold my hand over the exit end and could feel a fairly strong force pushing upwards or even from the side, it had a fairly definite field. From my other hand a 10 in. spark leaped from my finger tip to ground. Largest spark I have ever seen next to lightening. I still have the set up in my office but have not had the urge to turn it back on.


12 posted on 06/11/2008 8:11:34 AM PDT by underbyte
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To: AmericaUnited

With HHO unit I am looking at, the output into the exhaust system contains no NOx.


13 posted on 06/11/2008 8:16:13 AM PDT by Jeff Head (Freedom is not free...never has been, never will be. (www.dragonsfuryseries.com))
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To: fproy2222

Browns Gas is Oxygen and Hydrogen combined in the most perfect ratio for complete combustion. Hydrogen by itself is not combustible until exposed to oxygen like available in the air. A leak from a hydrogen tank can ignite but a sensor failure inside the tank cannot cause ignition until oxygen gets to it.

Browns Gas (the gas created by electrolysis if the cathode and anode are not separated into separate chambers) is highly explosive.


14 posted on 06/11/2008 8:17:56 AM PDT by thackney (life is fragile, handle with prayer)
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To: Jeff Head
If air is brought in for gasoline combustion, you are going to produce NOx. Air is mostly nitrogen.

If you increase the heat during combustion due to adding hydrogen, you will increase the NOx output.

15 posted on 06/11/2008 8:20:20 AM PDT by thackney (life is fragile, handle with prayer)
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To: fproy2222

You would not be storing the H + O but so it would not be a problem.


16 posted on 06/11/2008 8:21:55 AM PDT by AmericaUnited
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To: Jeff Head
Please report back to us on your results.

Please do any tune ups of the engine prior to adding the hydrogen generators. Then run it for a while and get a good gas mileage figure for comparison.

One of the scams is to take a car, badly in need of a tune-up, install some worthless equipment and perform a tune-up, and claim the results as from the equipment.

17 posted on 06/11/2008 8:23:37 AM PDT by thackney (life is fragile, handle with prayer)
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To: Incorrigible

Neat article.

As an engineer myself, this whole thing bears looking into.


18 posted on 06/11/2008 8:25:36 AM PDT by fishtank (FIRST defeat Obama's communism, THEN resist McCain's liberalism. A good plan.)
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To: Jeff Head
Another scam is to measure the output under a steady state no-load condition. Yes, you might get great results but that does not translate into real world results.
19 posted on 06/11/2008 8:26:49 AM PDT by AmericaUnited
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To: Jeff Head
Using a HHO (Brown's gas) generator works. I have friends getting 25-40% better milage with that alone. We are going to put one on my sons older PU truck before I try it on our newer vehicles.

Be extremely skeptical and cautious. I have a $200,000 engine dyno (I make airplane engines). I have tested Browns gas, it lowers the octane rating which retards the timing, not a good thing. If you accidently rev the engine you will destroy it. I have gotten good at destroying engines, lots of practice : )

What I have observed is that people who use these devices alter their driving behavior and tune up their vehicles. It is very easy to get better gas mileage simply by idling less, driving a little bit slower, not accelerating as quikly, etc. My dodge Cummins diesel pickup gets between 15 and 25 mpg depending on how I drive it. I think that driving into the wind as opposed to driving with the wind makes about a 2 mpg (10%) difference.

The bottom line is that gasoline is a very good fuel. Changing the composition by adding hydrogen and/or oxygen in any form has very marginal benefits, and a lot of potential bad effects. An engine is just a pump designed to run very close to the stoichiometric point, if you change the composition of the fuel too much be prepared to replace the engine.

I talk to these snake oil salesmen occasionally and I find the silence very telling when I tell them I would like to test their product on a dyno. More often than not, that is the end of the conversation, they lose interest in selling me the product instantaneously. I have even wondered if it isn't some kind of disproof of Einstein's theory of Relativity.

20 posted on 06/11/2008 8:28:30 AM PDT by LeGrande
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To: Ron Jeremy

I agree. The car industry is in worlds of trouble, if this worked they would be all over it.


21 posted on 06/11/2008 8:29:56 AM PDT by Anti-Bubba182
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To: Jeff Head
We are going to put one on my sons older PU truck before I try it on our newer vehicles.

I would warn anyone against doing this to a vehicle you can not afford to replace. You are working with gasoline near a hot engine. Car fires are nasty ones.

22 posted on 06/11/2008 8:30:00 AM PDT by McGruff
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To: Conspiracy Guy
"I smell a Hindenburg coming on."

Did somebody say "huge manatees"????


23 posted on 06/11/2008 8:30:11 AM PDT by rednesss (Fred Thompson - 2008)
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To: underbyte

Unless you’re leaving out some pretty important details, I’m thinking you have a very active imagination...


24 posted on 06/11/2008 8:33:33 AM PDT by DJ Frisat (SPAM: best in the can and in sammiches -- not for use on computers.)
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To: rednesss

I love Manatee steak with country gravy


25 posted on 06/11/2008 8:35:22 AM PDT by Conspiracy Guy (I voted Republican because no Conservatives were running.)
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To: Incorrigible
So you burn gasoline in the tank to turn the alternator which charges the battery which provides power to the Brown Gas Generator which gives Hydrogen to the combustion chamber and this setup is supposed to give greater mileage?

The question then is, is the chemical energy release of burning the hydrox mix greater than the electrical energy required to crack them? Somehow I doubt this is the case. I expect a lot of dead batteries in these cars' futures.

This also kind of strikes me as similar to the more complicated versions of steam engines like triple or qudruple expansion engines.

Now if you were generating electricity from the waste heat off the exhaust and using THAT to crack the water. Then you'd definitely be getting somewhere but even then you are just increasing the efficiency of the internal combustion engine.

26 posted on 06/11/2008 8:38:07 AM PDT by Centurion2000 (Beware the fury of the man that cannot find hope or justice.)
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To: McGruff
We're pretty adapt at working on vehicles and the conversion will be accomplished, of course, when the engine is off. The hosing to transfer the HHO is straight forward and can be accomplished without any danger.

Just the same, the whole idea of doing it on the old pickup is to check it out on something we can afford to have it not work on and then fix afterward if necessary. A 1992 Ford F-150.

I'll post something on FR after we do so in the next coupe of months and then test it long enough in real world conditions here in IDaho to get a feel for the results.

27 posted on 06/11/2008 8:39:31 AM PDT by Jeff Head (Freedom is not free...never has been, never will be. (www.dragonsfuryseries.com))
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To: Incorrigible
"A key component of the system is an electronic modulator for the car's oxygen sensor, Kushnir said. The device prevents the car's computer from injecting more fuel into the engine in response to cleaner exhaust produced by burning hydrogen ..."

Ding! Ding! They mechanically lean out the fuel mixture...

28 posted on 06/11/2008 8:41:26 AM PDT by Mechanicos
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To: LeGrande
What I have observed is that people who use these devices alter their driving behavior and tune up their vehicles. It is very easy to get better gas mileage simply by idling less, driving a little bit slower, not accelerating as quikly, etc. My dodge Cummins diesel pickup gets between 15 and 25 mpg depending on how I drive it

++

I drive a Ford Ranger with the small 4 cylinder and manual transmission.

I normally get 29/30 mpg. Since most of my driving is within 50 miles, the few minutes difference between 65 and 75 is worth the difference in gas money.

Here a while back I had to get about 400 miles away in a hurry and was not worried about gas millage. At 75/80 mph, my gas millage dropped to 19 mpg.

29 posted on 06/11/2008 8:46:33 AM PDT by fproy2222
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To: Jeff Head
As was pointed out, Brown's Gas has a very, very low energy density so beware of no-load test results.
30 posted on 06/11/2008 8:50:32 AM PDT by AmericaUnited
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To: AmericaUnited

With a 4X4 pickup operating offroad in the mountains here in Idaho, you will not have to wrroy about that.


31 posted on 06/11/2008 8:53:28 AM PDT by Jeff Head (Freedom is not free...never has been, never will be. (www.dragonsfuryseries.com))
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To: Incorrigible
My Son-in-law is going to put one in his Chevy SUV.

I now call it Der Hindenburban.

32 posted on 06/11/2008 8:54:28 AM PDT by N. Theknow (Kennedys: Can't drive, can't fly, can't ski, can't skipper a boat; but they know what's best for us)
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To: LeGrande

Congratulations, I find your post to be the most informative and credible in this thread.


33 posted on 06/11/2008 8:55:46 AM PDT by chopperman
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To: Incorrigible; All
Anyone interested in this should read this first.
Some Energy Fundamentals
http://www.tinaja.com/glib/energfun.pdf
...
There was a recent newsgroup flap over an individual who thought he was going to find an old solar panel scunging away at a yard sale somewhere, build up an electrolysizer out of scrap parts he had lying around, and then hydrogen power his Cadillac Escalade SUV by using "free" energy. Thus screwing the oil companies. What’s wrong with this picture? Or, for that matter, "not even wrong"? There seems to be an amazing amount of appallingly bad misinformation on both traditional and alternate energy out there. Driven by everything from wishful thinking to hidden agendas to hero worship to big business hatred to government stupidity to subsidy ripoffs to bad labwork to utter cluelessness to R&D funding grabs to outright scams.

34 posted on 06/11/2008 9:05:50 AM PDT by AmericaUnited
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To: Incorrigible

When I was in the Navy, we had on board a rather large device known as an electrolytic oxygen generator. It generated oxygen using a process that is really no different from the device described in the article aside from scale.

There was a reason that we referred to it as the “bomb”.


35 posted on 06/11/2008 9:08:51 AM PDT by Doohickey (SSN: One ship, one crew, one screw.)
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To: Incorrigible
It's likely that hydrogen improves combustion

The modern engine running at constant driving speed is giving as close to 100% combustion as you can get. There is hardly any raw gas or CO coming out the tailpipe. There's nothing left to burn. How can you improve on that?

Since it takes energy to make the hydrogen, even if it makes a difference, will it pay back the energy lost?

36 posted on 06/11/2008 9:11:27 AM PDT by Right Wing Assault ("..this administration is planning a 'Right Wing Assault' on values and ideals.." - John Kerry)
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To: Incorrigible

“A key component of the system is an electronic modulator for the car’s oxygen sensor, Kushnir said. The device prevents the car’s computer from injecting more fuel into the engine in response to cleaner exhaust produced by burning hydrogen, which would negate the efficiency gained, he said.”
Simply leaning the engine fuel mix. Plug-in engine modulators can be purchased aftermarket to tune the engine on the fly.
Burning water, burning hydrogen generated from water, nonsense, past and present.


37 posted on 06/11/2008 9:17:46 AM PDT by count-your-change (you don't have to be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: AmericaUnited
http://www.tinaja.com/glib/energfun.pdf

Electrolysis Fantasies

Water is an ash. By chemical energetics, it is thus about the worst place to look for a bulk hydrogen source. At first glance, it seems easy enough to use electrolysis to split water into its oxygen and hydrogen components. Just apply any low dc current for bubble, bubble, toil and trouble. Full details first appeared by Michael Faraday over a century ago. And are easily found today in Britannica’s Great Books #45.

Electrolysis is certainly useful for cooling generators or petrochemical refining or precision low energy torches or lifting research balloons or making fat pretty but deadly. But nearly all of these use unstored hydrogen-on-demand and do value their hydrogen much higher than by its meager energy content.

As we’ve seen, retail electricity is worth about ten cents per kilowatt hour. Lower exergy gasoline is worth three cents per kilowatt hour. Your value of raw unprocessed hydrogen is not well established, but we do know it will certainly be a lot less than gasoline today. Because it has not yet impacted gasoline in any significant way. I feel 0.8 cents per raw hydrogen kilowatt hour can be a reasonable ballpark estimate.

In a typical situation, electrolysis takes two or more kilowatt hours of electricity worth ten cents each and converts them into one or fewer kilowatt hours of hydrogen worth less than a penny each. And that is before any fully burdened cost accounting, amortization, storage or processing. Thus… Electrolysis for bulk hydrogen energy is pretty much the same as 1:1 converting US dollars into Mexican Pesos.

At its very best, electrolysis introduces a staggering loss of exergy that dramatically reduces the quantity and value of transformed kilowatt hours of energy. Electrolysis is thus wildly unsuitable when driven from high value electrical sources such as retail grid electricity or any small scale photovoltaics.

If you have electricity, sell the electricity, buy some methane, and reform the methane. It is a lot cheaper and throws away a lot less exergy.

This is remarkably comparable to our earlier electrical resistance heat example. Where your best solution involves converting a few higher value kilowatt hours into more lower value ones. Rather than fewer.

Even if you have a renewable and sustainable source of ultra low cost electricity, electrolysis can still easily convert it back down into a net energy sink. Individuals making their own "homebrew" hydrogen by electrolysis face other rude surprises. For openers, some to much of the produced "gas" may end up water vapor from dielectric heating. Safety issues are largely unappreciated and easily lead to Darwin Awards.

But the really big gotcha is trying to use stainless steel rather than costly platinized platinum electrodes. Because of the hydrogen overvoltage of iron found in most any electrochem textbook, and because of the dead-wrong low energy passivated surface, stainless slashes your possible efficiency by one-half or greater.

38 posted on 06/11/2008 9:23:24 AM PDT by AmericaUnited
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To: Incorrigible

Umm, pretty sure this was Mythbusted.


39 posted on 06/11/2008 9:25:10 AM PDT by naturalized ("The time has come," He said. "The kingdom of God is near. Repent and believe the good news!")
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To: Incorrigible
I don't believe this is a good idea on the surface. Electrolysis of water into Hydrogen and Oxygen is an endothermic reaction. It takes more energy to break the H & O apart than they give off when they are recombined by combustion. For this to work there would need to be a violation of the law of conservation of energy, i.e. a perpetual motion machine.

Now, that said, there might be an advantage actually caused by the free oxygen helping to efficiently combust the gasoline. If this is the case, the hydrogen is probably just getting in the way. That aspect may be worth experimenting with.
40 posted on 06/11/2008 9:37:10 AM PDT by Mr. Dough (I'm all in favor of multiculturalism, especially if it involves funny accents!)
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To: Incorrigible
People who wish not to believe it can work forget the alternator of any auto / truck has a fixed amount of current it can deliver at 13.2 to 14.35 VDC depending upon make.

A lot of the output from the alternator is never used by the car in daytime driving; minimal use just charges the battery as you drive. Now, having the stereo on, the wipers going, headlights on and running the ac will consume most of the power from many makes of alternators.

Therefore, the alternator spins to produce voltage that charges the battery constantly whether that energy is needed by the battery or not. Power to run the vehicle's accessories is pulled off the battery.

My problem with the advertisers out there seem not to suggest reserve H2O tanks to automatically fill the electrolysis chamber as needed.

Also, if the system (Hydrogen Hurricane, etc.) cannot store small amounts of Brown Gas, then quick acceleration would be severely hampered.

My take is the units ability to supply the amounts of brown gas needed at a steady rate may be in question with respect to optimal combustion mix of octane and the brown mix.

It does not matter what kind of fuel an internal combustion engine burns as flex fuel vehicles are already demonstrating that capability.

Hydrogen burning in oxygen that is created from water using excess alternator energy is easily accomplished and feeding that gas mix to the air intake just in front of the MAFS is how it is down. One will have to change electrodes at times is my guess and the brown gas additive will tell the car's computer to lean back the fuel mix thus increasing mileage.

41 posted on 06/11/2008 10:01:56 AM PDT by RSmithOpt (Liberalism: Highway to Hell)
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To: Ron Jeremy

Yeah, they been such pioneers on fuel economy.


42 posted on 06/11/2008 10:02:49 AM PDT by purpleraine
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To: purpleraine
Let's cut the nonsense.

Electric plug-ins at home. Increase the R&D on batteries and increase the range into the future. You remember the gear up to World War II. This is a national defense issue. If GM and Ford won't do it, the Japanese and the Germans will and they'll produce some of the cars here.

Start nuke plants which we need anyway for other energy sources.

43 posted on 06/11/2008 10:05:48 AM PDT by purpleraine
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To: IamConservative

Supposedly, it uses the excess electricity produced by the alternator, which would be wasted, to split the water. I’m not sure if that really works that way, but it sounds good.


44 posted on 06/11/2008 10:29:41 AM PDT by VanShuyten ("Ah! but it was something to have at least a choice of nightmares.")
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To: RSmithOpt
You obviously don't have any idea that if a greater electrical load is placed on your alternator, it presents a greater mechanical load to your engine.
45 posted on 06/11/2008 10:33:33 AM PDT by AmericaUnited
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To: VanShuyten

See #45


46 posted on 06/11/2008 10:35:41 AM PDT by AmericaUnited
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To: VanShuyten

Your alternator doesn’t produce “excess” electricity. It produces enough to handle the load imposed upon it until it reaches maximum output at which point the battery will begin to drain.


47 posted on 06/11/2008 11:05:51 AM PDT by count-your-change (you don't have to be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: RSmithOpt
People who wish to believe this will work do not understand physics, engineering or automobile technology.

An alternator is a variable current device. If it weren't, the battery charging voltage would vary with load instead of being relatively constant at 13.5 Volts.

Voltage and power are not the same thing. Electric power equals voltage times current. When there is no current draw on the alternator, it produces and consumes little power. When current is drawn from the alternator, the voltage regulator feeds more current to the exciter coil.

All the power produced by the alternator comes from the crankshaft of the engine. mechanical load on the engine varies directly with the amount of power generated by the alternator.

The efficiency of conversion for an alternator is about 50%. Likewise the efficiency for electrolysis is about 50%. Boiled down, if I force the alternator to consume 10 HP electrolyzing water, the upper limit for the power returned by burning the resulting Hydrogen would be 2.5 HP. The result is a net loss of 7.5 HP at the crankshaft. Engine efficiency is by definition shaft output power per unit of fuel.

Any benefit shown by such a system most likely due to one or more of: driver behavior changes, poor testing controls, or false claims.

Here we see the bitter fruit of the death of science education in America.

48 posted on 06/11/2008 11:07:58 AM PDT by Jack of all Trades (This line intentionally left blank)
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To: Jack of all Trades
When there is no current draw on the alternator, it produces and consumes little power. When current is drawn from the alternator, the voltage regulator feeds more current to the exciter coil.

True, however, the amount of power (torque from the crankshaft or speed 2X above idle approx 1500 rpm) required to turn the alternator to increase the current being delivered at 12 VDC does not change while the engine is running. Therefore, the power is available for the electrolysis even though the car hasn't called for the power through the battery.

The alternator produces a 3-phase current sine wave which is converted by a 6-diode rectifier. The power is available limited only by low (idle) rpm, the current carrying capabilities of the diodes and the size of the stator and rotor.

The alternator can more than make up for the voltage needed to recharge the battery during electrolysis.

The anode and cathode plate efficiency requires fairly pure and expensive precious metals. That's one thing most people forget.

I have to disagree with your take on 'forcing the alternator' to consume power as it spinning when the engine is running regardless. There are no clutches, etc. in an alternator that increase torque on the engine when more electrical power is required.

Don't believe me? Do a simple test.

Check your gas mileage in normal driving. Then turn all you lights on, stereo, wipers, and passenger compartment fan on high and drive a qtr tank of gas out. Then check your mileage.

I'll bet you $1000 it will not drop because you used more electricity from the alternator recharging the battery.

You may want to change your perception of gasoline fuel independence for the internal combustion versus less gasoline use with extra brown gas supplied to the cylinders.

49 posted on 06/11/2008 11:40:02 AM PDT by RSmithOpt (Liberalism: Highway to Hell)
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To: DJ Frisat

“”Unless you’re leaving out some pretty important details, I’m thinking you have a very active imagination...””

PM your email and I will send you a picture.

8 plug wires @ 2000 RPM = 16,000 min I do not know if I got hydrogen or not but I know I had a pretty good plasma thing going.


50 posted on 06/11/2008 12:08:14 PM PDT by underbyte
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