Godless

New York Times ^ | 11 June 2008 | Timothy Eagan

[shrinkermd]

This Father’s Day, one of most popular pastors in America will open his megachurch to homosexual dads, an event that would usually signal an extreme weather alert from old guard Republican evangelical leaders.

Rick Warren. (Credit: Alex Wong/Getty Images for Meet the Press)But by welcoming gay fathers into his Southern California flock, Rick Warren, author of the “The Purpose Driven Life,” is not just living up to the highest standards of Christian fellowship, he’s turning the page on a particularly embarrassing part of our politics.

Just to refresh: it was televangelist Pat Robertson who predicted “earthquakes, tornadoes and possibly even a meteor” would hit Orlando for inviting gays to Disney World, and Rev. John Hagee who blamed Hurricane Katrina on a vengeful God angered over a gay pride parade in New Orleans. And they did this even without Doppler radar

...Joel Osteen, the feel-good Texas optimist who is perhaps the nation’s most popular minister, and Warren have both disavowed politics this year. They will not endorse a candidate, allow politics in the service, or issue thinly disguised election “guidelines,” hint, hint.

Bless ‘em.

[shrinkermd]

What the author fails to mention is "liberalism" should be spelled with a capital "L" since it is the reigning faith in America.

People metaphysically create an answer to the questions of life including purpose and meaning. They then defend their faith as best they can.

[svcw]

The man has lost his mind/way.
He appears he now worships at the feet of baal.

[PetroniusMaximus]

more...

http://kimolsen.wordpress.com/2008/06/07/rick-warrens-latest-gay-fathers-day/

[pnh102]

Just to refresh: it was televangelist Pat Robertson who predicted “earthquakes, tornadoes and possibly even a meteor” would hit Orlando for inviting gays to Disney World, and Rev. John Hagee who blamed Hurricane Katrina on a vengeful God angered over a gay pride parade in New Orleans.

If these things are true (it is the Al Qaeda Times, after all) then it illustrates that people who believe that homosexuality is wrong need to take a different approach. For thousands of years, people have predicted all sorts of calamities if God's will is ignored, and most, if not all, of those predictions turned out to be false. All they did was simply take away credibility from religion.

[<1/1,000,000th%]

Barf alert?

[mkjessup]

Sodom and Gomorrah were real cities, with real homosexuals (and heterosexuals) whose depravities condemned them, and a Righteous God annihilated them from the face of the Earth.

Warren and his ilk will be in their pulpits, preaching this false god of liberal situational-ethics, feel-good ‘values’ when fire and brimstone once again falls from the heavens, and they will join their spiritual brethren in the hereafter, and they’ll look around and wonder why there it’s so dark and smoky in ‘Heaven’.

Guess what Rick? You ain’t in Heaven.

[Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus]

One can't help but note that N'awlins was destroyed by a hurricane. exactly at the time the city was to host a huge, in-your-face gay pride march.....

[Strategerist]

I noticed the “God’s punishment!” folks were noticeably absent on the Boy Scout Camp getting hit by a tornado thread.

[Strategerist]

The area where the parade took place and where decadence occurs continuously, the French Quarter, was barely damaged at all.

The areas destroyed were an assortment of suburbs.

[gracesdad]

“One can’t help but note that N’awlins was destroyed by a hurricane. exactly at the time the city was to host a huge, in-your-face gay pride march.....”

It was badly damaged but far from “destroyed.”

On the other hand, small and fairly conservative towns in Mississippi and Louisiana that weren’t having gay parades WERE destroyed by Katrina. Same with Hurricane Rita. Your explanation?

[Strategerist]

On the other hand, small and fairly conservative towns in Mississippi and Louisiana that weren’t having gay parades WERE destroyed by Katrina. Same with Hurricane Rita. Your explanation?

Not to mention severe damage to a variety of military bases and important naval shipyards.

[megatherium]

I remember reading a book, The End of the World: A History. The author described those eras when people thought the end of the world was at hand, such as the end of the Roman Empire or the Black Death of the 14th century. One of the chapters dealt with the 1755 earthquake in Lisbon. This was a terrible event with catastrophic loss of life. Lisbon was a devout Roman Catholic city, and no one could discern why Lisbon deserved such cruel punishment. As a result, European intellectuals abandoned the notion that God uses natural disasters to punish cities or nations.

[Lucky Dog]

The church doors should be open to all sinners (all of us have fallen short). However, the expectation should never be that sin will be condoned among a gathering of believers.

The idea, rather, should be that sinners invited into the church would be convicted of their sins, repent, confess and believe on Christ as their savior. Their repentance implies a turning away from their sins and that they would in the words of Christ: "Go and sin no more."

If Rev Osteen has opened the doors of his church to homosexuals based upon the above principles, more power to him and his congregation. If, on the other hand, he opened the doors of his church to homosexuals with the idea that he is implying that their sins should be ignored, then he is committing a grave error of, both, judgement and faith.

[Earthdweller]

The NYTs praises this preacher while ignoring this...

Deafening Silence (Mark Steyn and and others being prosecuted for their opinions) http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2029956/posts

Fair and balanced they are not. They will slowly reduce all religion to bendable options making your chosen faith and opinion irrelevant.

[Strategerist]

As a result, European intellectuals abandoned the notion that God uses natural disasters to punish cities or nations.

Though amazingly this is still clung to (selectively) by a lot of people on FR.

[gracesdad]

“I noticed the “God’s punishment!” folks were noticeably absent on the Boy Scout Camp getting hit by a tornado thread.”

Well you see these things are God’s punishment only when “they” decide they are.

[twigs]

Because it’s true. However, there are also a lot of natural disasters that are a consequence of living in a fallen world and the good are affected along with the evil. I cannot tell the difference between natural disasters and God’s direct use of them, not being God. I respect both and live in awe of a powerful God.

[Sybeck1]

I sure miss Adrian Rogers.

[Strategerist]

Because it’s true. However, there are also a lot of natural disasters that are a consequence of living in a fallen world and the good are affected along with the evil.

Natural disasters seem to be caused by physics.

And all the natural disasters we experience now were clearly experienced in the world, often on far larger scales, hundreds of millions of years ago, when there were no sentient life-forms on earth to be "fallen" in the first place.

[Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus]

You guys need some reading comprehension lessons, I think. Notice, I merely pointed out the timing of Katrina, and implied that it gives the impression of some correlation. I didn't say that it necessarily was a specific act of God's judgment. It might have been, or it might have been simply another act of nature. However, your arguments are extremely shallow and insufficient, as they stand. Regardless of the status of the French Quarter, the city WAS rendered ineffective (and still is much so), and the FQ is a shadow of its former self to this day. As for other towns around the area, and the military bases - who knows? If it were an act of God's judgment, due to the universality of sin, there was enough going on in even these conservative areas to warrant judgment, so that their "innocence" as "collateral damage" would not actually be so.

So tell me - why do you think the destruction of military bases necessarily negates the possibility of judgment? Do you think the US military is on God's A-list or something?

[naturalized]

Hmmmm. Hijacked thread.

First let’s deal with the whole concept of how we should respond when tragedy strikes. From Luke 13:

1Now there were some present at that time who told Jesus about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mixed with their sacrifices. 2Jesus answered, “Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans because they suffered this way? 3I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish. 4Or those eighteen who died when the tower in Siloam fell on them—do you think they were more guilty than all the others living in Jerusalem? 5I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish.”

And on the topic of why bad things happen, this from Romans 9:

14What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15For he says to Moses,
“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”16It does not, therefore, depend on man’s desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

19One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?” 20But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’ “21Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?

Next, let’s find out from 1 Corinthians 5 what “living up to the highest standards of Christian fellowship” means in the context of sexual immorality:

1It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that does not occur even among pagans: A man has his father’s wife. 2And you are proud! Shouldn’t you rather have been filled with grief and have put out of your fellowship the man who did this? 3Even though I am not physically present, I am with you in spirit. And I have already passed judgment on the one who did this, just as if I were present.

Sounds like some folks need to spend more time in the Word.

[megatherium]

Yes, it’s rather regrettable.

[Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus]

Natural disasters seem to be caused by physics.

Logical error. You're confusing cause with mechanism. Vehicular motion is also due to physics, yet doesn't (typically) occur except through intelligent action by a controller.

[gracesdad]

“You guys need some reading comprehension lessons, I think. Notice, I merely pointed out the timing of Katrina, and implied that it gives the impression of some correlation. I didn’t say that it necessarily was a specific act of God’s judgment. It might have been, or it might have been simply another act of nature. However, your arguments are extremely shallow and insufficient, as they stand.”

And your argument is much deeper? Have you considered going on the standup circuit?

[Patrick1]

Warren needs to take care that he is not worshiping a new “Lord”, that of the God of PC.

Matthew 7:21-23

21”Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ 23Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

[Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus]

And your argument is much deeper? Have you considered going on the standup circuit?

Apparently deeper than yours. I discuss theoretics and attempt a logical discussion of a "what if" scenario, and you come back with fluff.

[VeniVidiVici]

Nice proactive shill piece for Barack Hussein. Oh, did I say Hussein? I’m sorry. That probably cheapens the debate. We shouldn’t inject religion, race or ethnicity into our decision.

Author manages to mention God, meth, homosexuality and prostitutes in such a way as to make sure Barry can’t be hurt at all.

[gracesdad]

“Apparently deeper than yours. I discuss theoretics and attempt a logical discussion of a “what if” scenario, and you come back with fluff.”

I’m merely answering fluff with fluff.

[Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus]

I’m merely answering fluff with fluff.

From what I've seen of you previously on FR, fluff is about all you're capable of anywise, so why should I have even bothered?

[megatherium]

The sin of New Orleans was to live below sea level, with inadequate levees, in a region where a category 3+ hurricane was only a matter of time. The sin of Sichuan Province in China was poor construction (or as engineers like to say, earthquakes don't kill people, buildings kill people). The sin of Europe in 1348 was poor sanitation and rodent control— it may be that the superstitious Europeans fell victim to the Black Death merely because they decided that cats were associated with witchcraft, and got rid of them, allowing a rat population explosion.

[Strategerist]

Just wondering why, say, NO getting hit because of a Gay Pride parade is a more valid speculation than Keesler AFB and Northrop Grumman shipbuilding being severely damaged because some deity hates the US Military? Or the Boy Scouts being hit (mind you, there were multiple killed by two different lightning strikes at scouting events a couple of years ago) because of their failure to allow gay scoutmasters.

The basic issue is the selective hypocrisy people exhibit around various disasters.

Personally, of course, I believe no natural disasters anywhere have the remotest connection to any supernatural deity.

[flying_bullet]

If you'd like a real-world example of how God deals with societies that tolerate and glorify sin, read Romans 1:18 through the rest of the chapter.

It's a cause and effect situation. Verses 18-23 is the cause, 24 and following is the effect. God "gave them over". Homosexuality is a result of the type of sin in verses 18-23. It's a type of judgment in and of itself.

God's judgment is two-fold: here and now, and in chapter 2, the hereafter.

[chickpundit]

“The church doors should be open to all sinners (all of us have fallen short). However, the expectation should never be that sin will be condoned among a gathering of believers.

The idea, rather, should be that sinners invited into the church would be convicted of their sins, repent, confess and believe on Christ as their savior. Their repentance implies a turning away from their sins and that they would in the words of Christ: “Go and sin no more.”

Thank you, I completely agree. Everyone should be allowed in the House of God. So many times, Christians react toward gay people with an especially judgmental attitude. While homosexuality is most certainly a sin, many other sins are ranked up there equally with it, according to the verse below. There are many sitting on church pews guilty of many of the following:

Corinthians 6:9-10 – “Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.”

However, if these preachers pander, preach a politically correct gospel, and deceive people into believing their sins are acceptable, they will be accountable to God on Judgment Day.

[Patrick1]

Okay, those who believe that God destroys cities because of sin have failed to remember the scriptures. God promised following the flood to not destroy mankind again. Because of the coming of Christ mankind has been reconciled to Christ so that we now can have a personal relationship with God. If we choose not to then we destroy ourselves.

Next.

[RogerD]

The church doors should be open to all sinners (all of us have fallen short). However, the expectation should never be that sin will be condoned among a gathering of believers. The idea, rather, should be that sinners invited into the church would be convicted of their sins, repent, confess and believe on Christ as their savior. Their repentance implies a turning away from their sins and that they would in the words of Christ: "Go and sin no more."

Exactly. I would assume that all churches, and certainly all churches that follow Jesus, would welcome homosexuals every Sunday. I know my church would welcome them. We also welcome those guilty of adultery, and a broad range of otherwise imperfect Christians. I'm not sure why this would be news.

There is a difference between welcoming homosexuals, adulterers, Clinton-supporters, or any other group of sinners, and rewriting scripture or pretending that their actions are not clearly addressed in the Bible.A reformed tax collector once wrote:

[Matt 9:9-14] As Jesus passed on from there, he saw a man called Matthew sitting at the tax office; and he said to him, "Follow me." And he rose and followed him. And as he sat at table in the house, behold, many tax collectors and sinners came and sat down with Jesus and his disciples. And when the Pharisees saw this, they said to his disciples, "Why does your teacher eat with tax collectors and sinners?" But when he heard it, he said, "Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. Go and learn what this means, 'I desire mercy, and not sacrifice.' For I came not to call the righteous, but sinners."

[brwnsuga]

Our powerful G-d also loves homosexuals, drug addicts, liars, thieves, tax-collectors, prostitutes, alcoholics, child molesters and murderers. He also loved Hitler, Idi Amin, and Stalin. He loves all of us and is no respecter of persons- so says His word. If he can love all of these people and show forgiveness when they repent from their sin, then we should show all these people love while they are still in their sin. Who are we to judge? I would hope that Rev. Warren advises these homosexual dads that they need to turn from this lifestyle to the Lord and then go and sin no more.

[Alex Murphy]

This Father’s Day, one of most popular pastors in America [Rick Warren] will open his megachurch to homosexual dads, an event that would usually signal an extreme weather alert from old guard Republican evangelical leaders.

Rick Warren's proving himself to be an attention addict.

[twigs]

True. But he does condemn those who do not repent. The results of that condemnation are eternally catastrophic. GOD is not to be toyed with. I cannot judge a person’s heart, but He gives us instruction on sinful behavior. We are called upon to judge sin in ourselves and others. I don’t know what to think of Warren’s idea here. Only GOD knows his heart.

[onedoug]

Rick Warren visited Syria as that...country was then and there killing and maiming American Forces in Iraq.

He's a Traitor to his Country.

[Dilbert San Diego]

Why does he have to make a political statement about homosexuality?

Just invite all dads and let’s have a “don’t ask don’t tell” policy. Why do we have to emphasize and celebrate diversity with homoseuxal dads? why is this an important part of Father’s Day? Sheesh................

[alpha-8-25-02]

PING!

[SaltyJoe]

Liberalism Is a Sin is a powerful book written in Spain in 1886 and its content is more relevant today than when it first appeared. Although written from a Catholic perspective, this book is an eye-opener for catholics as well as for open-minded non-catholics. The moral depravity existing in our country today is a consequence of liberalism (pervasive in television, movies, literature, public and private morals) deeply enmeshed in our society. Liberalism asserts the sovereignty of the individual and social reason and enthrones Rationalism in the seat of authority. "It knows no dogma except the dogma of self-assertion." You will learn in this book that the non-logical thinking of liberalism which infects so many people today is the rebellion of the human intellect against God. This book contains the answers to the questions that people today are almost universally asking, "What has happened to our society? What is wrong?"

[eclecticEel]

I don’t Rick Warren has preached the gospel in years, if he ever did in the first place. This is just more of giving people what they want - which is kinda his trademark after all.

[SendShaqtoIraq]

“God promised following the flood to not destroy mankind again.”

No, he promised to never again destroy all the earth and mankind by FLOOD.

See Genesis 9:11 - And I will establish my covenant with you, neither shall all flesh be cut off any more by the waters of a flood; neither shall there any more be a flood to destroy the earth.

[Captain Rhino]

“For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths.”

(2 Tim. 4:3-4)

Seems appropriate to this situation. Mr. Warren is exchanging heavenly gold for earthly dross.

[444Flyer]

IMO. This man has done more to damage the legitimacy and holiness of the church than any other person in recent history.

He's had Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama speak in the pulpit of his church and now he is honoring sodomites.

One day every man will give an account to the Holy Almighty Everlasting God.

[naturalized]

Hmmmm - I think these have already been covered:

24”Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. 26But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. 27The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash.

OR

Unless the LORD builds the house,
its builders labor in vain.
Unless the LORD watches over the city,
the watchmen stand guard in vain.

OR

2 “ ‘Or if a person touches anything ceremonially unclean—whether the carcasses of unclean wild animals or of unclean livestock or of unclean creatures that move along the ground—even though he is unaware of it, he has become unclean and is guilty.

[NucSubs]

We’re doomed.

[xp38]

Jesus in the sermon on the mount had already addressed this...

Matthew 5:44-45 But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.

[eclecticEel]

The truly unfortunate reality, is that there is a broad swath of contemporary Christianity that failed to realize there was anything askew in Warren’s message until just this very moment.

Okie, that’s enough religio-talk for me.