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To Swift-Boat or Not
Time Online ^ | Thursday, Jun. 12, 2008 | MICHAEL KINSLEY

Posted on 06/13/2008 10:02:28 AM PDT by nikos1121

John McCain and Barack Obama are about to face a moral choice. It will probably be made in bits and pieces over the next five months, but we can imagine it as a single dramatic incident: the adviser approaches and says, "Yes or no. Do you want to swift-boat?" If you were the presidential candidate, what answer would you give?

Swift-boat is shorthand for the brilliant, despicable Republican campaign strategy in 2004 that turned John Kerry's honorable service in Vietnam into a negative factor in his campaign. The phrase has become more broadly the term for a particular category of campaign tactics and has even become a verb. To "swift-boat" somebody is to use these tactics against him or her. If you remember the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth campaign and don't see anything wrong with it--or if you believe it was the work of "independent" operatives unconnected to George W. Bush's campaign--I'm not going to waste precious space on the back page of a national newsmagazine arguing with you.

(Excerpt) Read more at time.com ...


TOPICS: News/Current Events; Politics/Elections
KEYWORDS: kinsley; mccarthyism; sbvft; swiftboating
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This post should P-ss Off alot of us here.

This idiot has the definition of Swiftboating and McCarthyism backwards. The Verona files proved that he was right. The Swiftboaters brought the world's attention to the truth about John Kerry. These were not idol unsubstantiated rumors.

If they were untrue, then why doesn't Kerry produce her service file?

1 posted on 06/13/2008 10:02:29 AM PDT by nikos1121
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To: nikos1121

Kinsley’s definition of “swiftboating” is actually “when a conservative digs up and tells the truth about a liberal because the media won’t do it.”

}:-)4


2 posted on 06/13/2008 10:04:28 AM PDT by Moose4 (http://moosedroppings.wordpress.com -- Because 20 million self-important blogs just aren't enough.)
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To: nikos1121
Perhaps Mr. Kinsley could tell us one single fact from the Swiftee’s book he can prove is wrong? I haven't seen anyone in the drive-by media who has done it yet. POS.

I didn't serve in Vietnam, but was in the post-Vietnam Army. I was personally offended and outraged to learn not only had the Dims nominated for President they guy whose Congressional testimony got me labeled a baby killer, but the POS actually was running for President on his Vietnam service. Before I'd ever heard of the Swiftees I couldn't wait to vote against that SOB.

3 posted on 06/13/2008 10:08:17 AM PDT by colorado tanker (Number nine, number nine, number nine . . .)
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To: Moose4
What is bizarre is that this is published without any suggestion that it is opinion or advocacy.
4 posted on 06/13/2008 10:09:18 AM PDT by marktwain
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To: nikos1121

Wow. This is brilliant
This far left liberal just swift boated “swift boating”.......
Truth, Honesty, Integrity.
Do people like Kinsley have dictionaries with these words removed, because they sure do not seem to know them.........


5 posted on 06/13/2008 10:09:21 AM PDT by SECURE AMERICA (Patriot Guard Riders - Standing for those that stood for us.)
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To: Moose4

Swiftboating: to deflate a politicans self-created narrative using facts and history. Syn: to debunk.

The more Swiftboating the better, on both sides.


6 posted on 06/13/2008 10:11:29 AM PDT by Jack Black
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To: nikos1121
Swift-boat is shorthand for the brilliant, despicable Republican campaign strategy in 2004 that turned John Kerry's honorable service in Vietnam into a negative factor in his campaign.

Liar.

7 posted on 06/13/2008 10:14:13 AM PDT by Cicero (Marcus Tullius)
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To: nikos1121
"... Swift-boat is shorthand for the brilliant, despicable Republican campaign strategy in 2004 that turned John Kerry's honorable service in Vietnam into a negative factor in his campaign."

I disagree with this statement on several levels. I only agree that this happened in 2004.

8 posted on 06/13/2008 10:18:15 AM PDT by The KG9 Kid
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To: nikos1121

Oh Yeah! LET THE SWIFT-BOATING BEGIN! Finding truth is what elections should be about!


9 posted on 06/13/2008 10:19:54 AM PDT by HappyinAZ
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To: The KG9 Kid

I think the birth certificate of Obama may turn out to be a Swiftboat issue, assuming that we find that the contents of the one he’s producing is fraudulent. If the certificate is true then the matter is dropped, but like Kerry, there is a very slow release of paper on the subject.


10 posted on 06/13/2008 10:21:55 AM PDT by nikos1121 (Obama is a post turtle)
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To: nikos1121
Swift-boat is shorthand for the brilliant, despicable Republican campaign strategy in 2004 that turned John Kerry's honorable service in Vietnam into a negative factor in his campaign.

How can the liberals talk about Kerry's "honorable service" when Kerry testified that being an American soldier in Vietnam meant acting like Jenjiss Khan or whoever, cutting off ears and the rest of it? I guess serving in an "immoral war" is honorable, as long as you're a Democrat.

As for Kinsley, I say the little dweeb should stay off the amyl nitrate.

11 posted on 06/13/2008 10:22:15 AM PDT by SamuraiScot
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Swift boating aside, what Kinsley needs is a good swift kick in the ass!


12 posted on 06/13/2008 10:22:16 AM PDT by retr0 (He who argues with a fool is an even greater fool.)
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To: nikos1121
Swift-boat is shorthand for the brilliant, despicable Republican campaign strategy in 2004 that turned John Kerry's honorable service in Vietnam into a negative factor in his campaign.

Yum! I love the taste of sour grapes.


13 posted on 06/13/2008 10:33:26 AM PDT by Nick Danger (Ding dong the witch is dead!)
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To: nikos1121
Swift-boat is shorthand for the brilliant, despicable Republican campaign strategy in 2004.....

....OF TELLING THE TRUTH....

14 posted on 06/13/2008 10:36:55 AM PDT by Wil H
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To: nikos1121
I am very proud that I donated money to the Swift Boat Veterans. It was the best political campaign contribution that I have ever made.
15 posted on 06/13/2008 10:37:46 AM PDT by HwyChile
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To: nikos1121

There are websites questioning McCain’s military service and his behavior while at the Hanoi Hilton. These haven’t got much attention from the mainstream media yet, but as the campaign heats up they will become more prominent.


16 posted on 06/13/2008 10:37:52 AM PDT by FFranco
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To: nikos1121

If michael kinsley and the MSM hates swift boating, then I’m all for it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


17 posted on 06/13/2008 10:39:06 AM PDT by FrankR (OBAMA is the VAST WRIGHT-WING CONSPIRACY...)
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To: All
For the Record {Please correct me if I am wrong I don't want to lose a debate some day,cause I misremembered things}

1. I do not believe anyone has ever proven any significant charge made by the Swift Boat Captains was false or that their account of events was false.

2. Those who have attacked or dismissed the Swift Boat Captains charges have pointed to other accounts that
they believe to be more credible; accounts which disagree with some of the key accusations but in no way refute or present evidence that on its face is any more believable or credible than the Swift Boat captains accounts.

3. The Swift Boat captains present good reasons why those other accounts are at the least suspect and that the primary source for those other accounts in many cases was John Kerry himself (or likely John Kerry or of unknown origin)

4. With the exception of John Kerry's crew mates all of the witnesses disagree with John Kerry's accounts. Those officers who would most likely know the facts both about specific indicdents and Kerry's general reputation and behavior as a captain with one exception are critical of Kerry.
5. John Kerry has refused to release documents which prove the Swift Boat Captains wrong on some of their key accusations.
6. John Kerry's behavior when he returned to the US tends to support the general assessment that the Swift Boat Captains made of him

7. It is categorically false, and without any basis in fact or evidence to say that the Swift Boat captains account was shown to be false, has been dis-proven or that the balance of the evidence is against them.

8. To use Swift-Boating as a synonym for politically motivated false attacks is at its base dishonest, begs the question and is an attempt to rewrite history hoping that the listener was fooled the first time around by the medias attempt to defend their candidate John Kerry.

18 posted on 06/13/2008 10:43:30 AM PDT by Jonah Johansen ("Coming soon to a neighborhood near you")
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To: retr0
Swift boating aside, what Kinsley needs is a good swift kick in the ass!

Other side.
19 posted on 06/13/2008 10:46:21 AM PDT by GeneralisimoFranciscoFranco (I love liberals. They taste like chicken.)
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To: SamuraiScot

You see to liberals and progressives it is an ‘honorable’ endeavor to undermine the United States of America.

Seems they tire easily of liberty and freedom for ALL...


20 posted on 06/13/2008 10:47:51 AM PDT by griswold3 (Al qaeda is guilty of hirabah (war against society) Penalty is death.)
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To: nikos1121

Kinsey has always, and will continue to be, a far left liberal ass.


21 posted on 06/13/2008 10:59:51 AM PDT by billva
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To: nikos1121

“John Kerry’s honorable service...”

Bull. He was and is now a traitor.

That he is an elected Senator is a disgrace, and the people that elected him or even live in the same state should be ashamed of themselves.


22 posted on 06/13/2008 11:09:06 AM PDT by alarm rider (Peace! through superior fire power....)
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To: nikos1121
Kinsley is simply trying to reinforce the liberal mantra that "Swift-boating" involves falsehood. When you figure that you have complete control over what words mean you get to try to do this, which is one reason the liberal control of the media has proven so advantageous to their party.

Not this time, Michael. In the words of a prominent Democrat named Truman: "I don't give 'em hell. I tell 'em the truth and they think it's hell."

23 posted on 06/13/2008 11:09:17 AM PDT by Billthedrill
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To: nikos1121
Swift-boat is shorthand for the brilliant, despicable Republican campaign strategy in 2004 that turned John Kerry's honorable service in Vietnam into a negative factor in his campaign.

It wasn't a Republican campaign and nothing the Swift Boat vets said was ever refuted so Kerry's service is highly suspect and his post-Vietnam behavior was arguably treasonable.

SwiftBoatVets

I suggest that Kinsley knows this and is lying.

24 posted on 06/13/2008 11:18:51 AM PDT by TigersEye (Berlin 1936. Olympics for murdering regimes. Beijing 2008.)
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To: alarm rider
Bull. He was and is now a traitor.

And oh by the way.....where is that release that he was going to sign for his service record. Dollars to doughnuts that he got a BCD or a Dishonorable Discharge. The one he likes to advertise was signed during the Carter administration.

25 posted on 06/13/2008 11:22:26 AM PDT by Retired COB (Still mad about Campaign Finance Reform)
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To: nikos1121


Time mag, and Kinsley are liars.
26 posted on 06/13/2008 11:23:09 AM PDT by roses of sharon ( (Who will be McCain's maverick?))
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To: nikos1121
No...no.... no.... he's just got the word order wrong.

It's not: "Swift-boat is shorthand for the brilliant, despicable Republican campaign strategy in 2004 that turned John Kerry's honorable service in Vietnam into a negative factor in his campaign".

It's supposed to say: "Swift-boat is shorthand for the brilliant, honorable Republican campaign strategy in 2004 that turned despicable John Kerry's negative service in Vietnam into a factor in his campaign".
27 posted on 06/13/2008 11:27:45 AM PDT by conservativeharleyguy (Democrats: Over 60 million fooled daily!!!)
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To: nikos1121
John Kerry's honorable service in Vietnam

LOL. It was so honorable that someone from the Harvard Law School admissions committee said he wasn't admitted because his less than honorable discharge would disqualify him from practicing law.

28 posted on 06/13/2008 11:46:40 AM PDT by freespirited
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To: freespirited
Kerry's honorable service in Vietnam...

Again. John Kerry promised Tim Russert 38 months ago that he would release his original DD 214. He has never done so. Less than honorable perhaps?

29 posted on 06/13/2008 11:58:02 AM PDT by RedEyeJack
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To: nikos1121

And it was not a Republican dirty trick. The SBVFT was a bipartisan effort. It had nothing to do with partisan politics in terms of the motivation of the Swifties. It was about the country not the Rep party.


30 posted on 06/13/2008 12:01:23 PM PDT by kabar
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To: FFranco
There are websites questioning McCain’s military service and his behavior while at the Hanoi Hilton. These haven’t got much attention from the mainstream media yet, but as the campaign heats up they will become more prominent.

I hope they do. It will backfire. There is a big difference between being imprisoned for five years, and filming yourself looking like a dork for three months. One is easy to poke holes in. One is not.

Let me follow up that observation with the statement that McCain is a dips*@t, that is either dumb enough or cynical enough to push Al Gore's AWG agenda. Add in the fact that he can't tell the difference between the Grand Canyon and ANWR, and he gets my vote only because the alternative is so incredibly horrendous.

31 posted on 06/13/2008 12:14:11 PM PDT by Minn (Here is a realistic picture of the prophet: ----> ([: {()
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To: nikos1121

Don’t sweat this dweeb. It’s just Weasel Kinsley looking for a corner to pee in...


32 posted on 06/13/2008 1:09:00 PM PDT by tubebender (Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.)
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To: nikos1121
I just had to write Michael Kinsley on this bit of tripe:

Editors: Please forward my comment to Michael Kinsley, author of this piece of incredibly biased journalism.

Michael: You may think the dishonor resides with the Swift Both Veterans for Truth. That is certainly your right.

In actuality, John Kerry or his campaign never refuted one allegation made by the Swift Boat Vets. The one thing he could do to refute their charges, release his entire Navy record by signing "Form 180" he has refused to do. This despite repeated calls by responsible journalists and partisans of both sides to do so.

John Kerry's problem was brought about by a mainstream media's refusal to look closely at his record, both of accomplishments in the political arena and his questionable claims of accomplishment in Vietnam. It was left to the Swift Boat Vets to pose appropriate questions about the latter. The fact that several of Kerry's superiors, as well as all but a few of his fellow Swift Boaters joined the effort was telling. Your effort to denigrate these brave men is beneath contempt.

A similar problem is about to reoccur in the current Presidential campaign. The mainstream press has steadfastly refused to pose legitimate questions about Barrack Obama's background - his associates, his early political activities in Chicago, his upbringing in Indonesia, his liberal record in the Senate.

America will not elect someone who conceals his background and history. In a man with a record of accomplishment as thin as Senator Obama's, it its crucial to know where he came from, who and what influenced him and the detail of policies will champion.

If the press does not fulfill its traditional role of vetting the candidates, you can fully expect the blogosphere to fill the gap - doing the job that the Swift Boat Vets did in 2004.

Hopefully your editors will no longer countenance your whining when you fail to do your job and some responsible group of individuals does it for you. I will proudly donate liberally to such a group, as I did to the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth.

Sincerely:

Probably did nothing mor than make me feel better, but that was enough.

33 posted on 06/13/2008 2:29:27 PM PDT by HardStarboard (Take No Prisoners - We're Out Of Qurans)
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To: conservativeharleyguy
>>>No...no.... no.... he's just got the word order wrong.<<<

I vote your post as "Turn of Phrase of the Day!"

Nice work....

34 posted on 06/13/2008 2:32:20 PM PDT by HardStarboard (Take No Prisoners - We're Out Of Qurans)
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To: HwyChile
>>>It was the best political campaign contribution that I have ever made. <<<

My sentiments exactly. If every dollar I have donated to politicians was as effective as the money I gave to the Swift Boat Vets, this nation would not be in the mess it is in!!!

35 posted on 06/13/2008 2:35:53 PM PDT by HardStarboard (Take No Prisoners - We're Out Of Qurans)
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To: HardStarboard

Thank you, thank you. I’ll be here all week......


36 posted on 06/13/2008 2:38:16 PM PDT by conservativeharleyguy (Democrats: Over 60 million fooled daily!!!)
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To: conservativeharleyguy

Yes!!!!!!


37 posted on 06/13/2008 7:24:28 PM PDT by nikos1121 (Obama is a post turtle)
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To: HardStarboard

Hey, I feel better having posted this and all of you have made me feel better from your comments...

Thank you

Nikos


38 posted on 06/13/2008 7:27:05 PM PDT by nikos1121 (Obama is a post turtle)
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To: nikos1121; Howlin; eddie willers; cajungirl; wirestripper; Southflanknorthpawsis; Peach; ...
My letter to TIME:

Dear Sirs:

In his recent article, “To Swift-Boat or Not,” Michael Kinsley asserted – without providing evidence – that the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth were part of President Bush’s re-election campaign. In fact, a comprehensive two-year Federal Election Commission investigation found that the group “did not unlawfully coordinate its activities… with any federal candidate or political party committee.”

Mr. Kinsley also labeled the Swift Vets “despicable” and accused the veterans of “fundamental dishonesty” – again, without any justification for such smears. In fact, the Swift Vets won the key debates in 2004, showing that John Kerry was not illegally ordered into Cambodia as he had repeatedly claimed, that some of his Vietnam injuries were accidently self-inflicted, and that his heroic “No Man Left Behind” story bore little resemblance to the event recalled by a dozen eyewitnesses. The veterans also successfully countered Kerry’s infamous 1971 claim that US troops had committed atrocities in Vietnam “on a day-to-day basis with the full awareness of officers at all levels of command.”

Despite the best efforts of the Kerry campaign and its media supporters, many voters found the Swift Vets credible and their evaluation of John Kerry relevant. A key reason was the group’s ability to back its charges with evidence.

It’s an approach Mr. Kinsley might want to consider.

Scott Swett

Scott Swett is the primary author of To Set The Record Straight: How Swift Boat Veterans, POWs and the New Media Defeated John Kerry.

39 posted on 06/17/2008 11:34:37 AM PDT by Interesting Times (Swiftboating, you say? Check out ToSetTheRecordStraight.com)
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To: Interesting Times

Excellent letter Scott... Thanks for the ping.


40 posted on 06/17/2008 11:43:55 AM PDT by DoughtyOne ( I say no to the Hillary Clinton wing of the Republican party. Not now or ever, John McCain...)
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To: Interesting Times

Thanks for the ping!


41 posted on 06/17/2008 11:45:06 AM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: Interesting Times

BTTT


42 posted on 06/17/2008 12:08:27 PM PDT by E.G.C. (To read a freeper's FR postings, click on his or her screen name and then "In Forum".)
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To: SamuraiScot
This reminds me of what we discussed in high school JROTC back in the 70s. The first post Vietnam war books came out IIRC from the POWS. The author said that during their interrogations their captors played a tape from a USN Lt. admitting to atrocities. The Lt's name wasn't given in the book. My fellow students who read the book were deeply disturbed by reading that. When we brought up the subject to our instructors who fought in WW II, Korea, and Vietnam they assured us that couldn't happen because if the Lt. was a real person he, would have been court martialed.

I made the connection that he author was referring to Kerry.

43 posted on 06/17/2008 12:22:10 PM PDT by Hillarys Gate Cult (The man who said "there's no such thing as a stupid question" has never talked to Helen Thomas.)
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To: Interesting Times
Well done, Scott. The MSM and the Dems have successfully made "swiftboating" a pejorative term when, in fact, it should be synonymous with truth-telling and patriotism.
44 posted on 06/17/2008 1:43:31 PM PDT by kabar
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To: kabar

Thanks. Truth-telling and patriotism rank high on the list of things the old media finds objectionable.


45 posted on 06/17/2008 2:00:15 PM PDT by Interesting Times (Swiftboating, you say? Check out ToSetTheRecordStraight.com)
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To: DoughtyOne

Thanks, D1.


46 posted on 06/17/2008 2:01:49 PM PDT by Interesting Times (Swiftboating, you say? Check out ToSetTheRecordStraight.com)
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To: Interesting Times; All
as i've said before REAL heroes do NOT talk about their combat heroism, especially with outsiders.

fwiw, in my almost 3 decades of ARNG/USA/USAR service i have personally KNOWN many REAL heroes & NONE of them had ANY respect for "hanoi-john"- NONE!

CREEPS & "wannabes" like "hanoi-john" make me want to VOMIT.

free dixie,sw

47 posted on 06/17/2008 2:10:39 PM PDT by stand watie (Resistance to TYRANTS is OBEDIENCE to God. T. Jefferson, 1804)
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To: Interesting Times

Our leftists will never accept the real truth - after all, Hanoi John is a US Senator, one of our “betters”. How dare anyone question his word, particularly a bunch of Viet Nam Veterans! “Everyone” knows that vets (except for Hanoi John) are all nut cases and can’t be believed.
This vet says “screw ‘em.”


48 posted on 06/17/2008 4:00:24 PM PDT by R. Scott (Humanity i love you because when you're hard up you pawn your Intelligence to buy a drink)
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To: nikos1121
Swift-boat is shorthand for the brilliant, despicable Republican campaign strategy in 2004 that turned John Kerry's honorable service in Vietnam into a negative factor in his campaign

Shorthand for what? Michael doesn't define what the term means. He mentions a specific campaign attack but then there have been campaign attacks since there was dirt.

If I was to try and generalize what "swiftboating" is I would say ... A candidate touted himself as having a key strength due to a specific set of events in his life and then grassroot citizens who were eye-witnesses to those events refuted it. A key point is that the candidate first made the event an issue and then eyewitnesses responded to the assertions.

So could there be switftboating in this election? IMO only if there are citizen eyewitnesses who can prove a candidate is lying about something a candidate claims. An ordinary campaign attack or an October surprise isn't necessarily a "swiftboat".

Michael Kensley does nothing but think and analyze for a living. That's all he does. And yet he doesn't understand what happened here.

49 posted on 06/17/2008 5:06:49 PM PDT by plain talk
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To: nikos1121

To Swiftboat or Not To Swiftboat Obama!

Let’s see here, Swiftboating means to out a liar as a liar supported by facts and documentation!

I say Swiftboat him until he cries like a baby, then Swiftboat him somemore!


50 posted on 06/17/2008 5:13:39 PM PDT by Randy Larsen (Arrogance IS my virtue!)
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