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Stone Of Destiny Is Fake, Claims Alex Salmond
The Telegraph (UK) ^ | 6-16-2008 | Auslan Cramb

Posted on 06/17/2008 1:51:25 PM PDT by blam

Stone of Destiny is fake, claims Alex Salmond

By Auslan Cramb, Scottish Correspondent
Last Updated: 1:41PM BST 16/06/2008

Alex Salmond dropped a cultural bombshell yesterday when he claimed that the Stone of Destiny, one of Scotland's most famous relics, was a medieval fake.

Alex Salmond arriving at the Scottish Grand Committee in Dumfries carrying the Stone of Destiny

Scottish, English and British monarchs have been crowned on the ancient coronation stone since the ninth century.

It spent 700 years under the chair in Westminster Abbey after it was seized in 1296 by King Edward I, and was finally returned to Scotland 12 years ago.

It has since been viewed at Edinburgh Castle by tens of thousands of people, and is regarded as a symbol of Scottish independence.

According to legend, Jacob used the ancient stone as a pillow when he dreamt of a ladder to heaven.

But Scotland's First Minister is convinced that it may be no more than a worthless lump of Perthshire sandstone.

He believes it was passed off as the real coronation stone when Edward stormed Scone Abbey in 1296.

Mr Salmond said: "If you're the abbot of Scone and the strongest and most ruthless king in Christendom is charging toward you in 1296 to steal Scotland's most sacred object and probably put you and half of your cohorts to death, do you do nothing and wait until he arrives or do you hide yourself and the stone somewhere convenient in the Perthshire hillside? I think the second myself."

He is not even convinced that the "fake" stone plundered from Scone was the same one that was returned to Scotland by Michael Forsyth, the then Tory Scottish Secretary, in 1996.

On Christmas Day 1950, the Stone of Destiny was stolen from below the coronation chair in Westminster Abbey by a group of radical nationalist students.

There have long been rumours that a Glasgow stonemason, Baillie Robert Gray, made copies of the stone when he was asked to repair it after it broke in two during the raid.

After a brief sojourn north of the border it was later handed back to British authorities and was used in the coronation of Queen Elizabeth II in 1953.

"There's no question that Bertie Gray made copies," said Mr Salmond. "It's like the Loch Ness monster, it's certainly a puzzle and a mystery which is best not definitively answered."

The First Minister revealed his views on the eve of the premiere of a Hollywood film about the theft of the stone. The film stars Robert Carlyle and Billy Boyd, and the SNP hopes the movie will help boost its campaign for independence.

Ian Hamilton, a QC who was one of the four students who stole the relic 58 years ago, said he remained convinced it was the real thing.

"Had it been a substitute for Edward to carry off it would have been produced when the king (Robert the Bruce) regained his kingdom. It wasn't," said Mr Hamilton, whose book, the Stone of Destiny, is published this week.

A spokesman for Westminster Abbey said she had always believed the stone was genuine.


TOPICS: News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: destiny; fake; godsgravesglyphs; scotland; stone; stoneofdestiny
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1 posted on 06/17/2008 1:58:05 PM PDT by blam
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To: blam

The stone is genuine.
What next? The King isn’t English?


2 posted on 06/17/2008 2:00:23 PM PDT by RightWhale (I will veto each and every beer)
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To: blam

There have been a lot of bloody minded monarchs in England’s history, but Edward I was one of the worst. Put him in the 20th century and he would have kept pace with Hitler and Stalin.


3 posted on 06/17/2008 2:00:46 PM PDT by kms61
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To: RightWhale
What next? The King isn’t English?

That is correct. There is no English King.

4 posted on 06/17/2008 2:03:41 PM PDT by jimtorr
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To: blam

This speculation has been around a long time. Liafail looked genuine enough when I saw it back in 2001.


5 posted on 06/17/2008 2:05:48 PM PDT by GoforBroke
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To: kms61

Only 12 years and the Scots have lost the Stone. It was safe for 700 years in England


6 posted on 06/17/2008 2:07:55 PM PDT by We Dare Defend Our Rights
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To: jimtorr

BALLS!..... Cried the Queen...... If I had two I’d be King!


7 posted on 06/17/2008 2:11:33 PM PDT by river rat (Semper Fi - You may turn the other cheek, but I prefer to look into my enemy's vacant dead eyes.)
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To: SunkenCiv
GGG Ping.

The Stone of Scone/Destiny

8 posted on 06/17/2008 2:13:37 PM PDT by blam
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To: RightWhale
"The stone is genuine. What next? The King isn’t English?"

I don't know but the Stone of Happenstance is safely in my backyard.

9 posted on 06/17/2008 2:13:44 PM PDT by DannyTN
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To: RightWhale

Um, you do know that the “House of Windsor” is more properly termed the “House of Saxe-Cobourg Gotha” right? QEII and Prince ChuckleHead are Germans by ethnicity.


10 posted on 06/17/2008 2:14:36 PM PDT by ikka
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To: blam

11 posted on 06/17/2008 2:14:41 PM PDT by blam
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To: blam

Stone of Destiny...Now Back in Scotland!

12 posted on 06/17/2008 2:18:22 PM PDT by blam
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To: RightWhale
What next? The King isn’t English?

German.

13 posted on 06/17/2008 2:19:07 PM PDT by SampleMan (We are a free and industrious people, socialist nannies do not become us.)
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To: blam
The First Minister revealed his views on the eve of the premiere of a Hollywood film about the theft of the stone.

Next they will be saying there are no leprechauns in Ire.

14 posted on 06/17/2008 2:19:14 PM PDT by JimSEA (Kaffur and proud of it.)
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To: All

Sounds like a good plot for National Treasure 3 . . .


15 posted on 06/17/2008 2:22:50 PM PDT by jeffc (They're coming to take me away! Ha-ha, he-he, ho-ho!)
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To: RightWhale
The King isn’t English?

Try German.

16 posted on 06/17/2008 2:23:59 PM PDT by Banjoguy (Nancy Pelosi and the Democrat party are enemies of The Republic.)
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To: river rat

B******* said the Prince, I’ve got a pair and I ain’t King.


17 posted on 06/17/2008 2:52:31 PM PDT by JimC214
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To: Banjoguy
You have to go back to George II, before the United States came to be, to find a King of England who wasn't born in England.

Please tell everyone on FR, why is 'the King' German? Having a German-sounding family surname isn't the same thing as being German. It's like saying Buraq Obama Muhammed 'ZionKiller-Jihad' Hussein isn't American. Ok, bad example.

18 posted on 06/17/2008 3:07:07 PM PDT by agere_contra
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To: JimSEA
Next they will be saying there are no leprechauns in Ire.

Well now you're just being silly...

19 posted on 06/17/2008 3:19:49 PM PDT by PugetSoundSoldier (Indignation over the sting of truth is the defense of the indefensible)
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To: blam

Scotland’s Destiny was written in Scone...er...stone.


20 posted on 06/17/2008 3:21:52 PM PDT by wildbill (Don't tread on our quotations!)
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To: RightWhale

http://www.usatoday.com/news/offbeat/2005-10-12-king-mike_x.htm

Just so you’ll know, the “real” king of England is in Australia.


21 posted on 06/17/2008 3:27:44 PM PDT by kalee (The offenses we give, we write in the dust; Those we take, we write in marble. JHuett)
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To: blam
Better known as the Scone of Stone:


22 posted on 06/17/2008 3:28:16 PM PDT by x
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To: blam

(www.allmoviephoto.com)


23 posted on 06/17/2008 3:33:25 PM PDT by Jeff Chandler (Given such dismal choices, I guess I'll vote for the old guy.)
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To: jimtorr

They’re Welsh, aren’t they? From Wales? (which isn’t England)

Is that right? Isn’t Wales North West on England?


24 posted on 06/17/2008 3:35:02 PM PDT by navyguy (Some days you are the pigeon, some days you are the statue.)
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To: blam

According to legend, Jacob used the ancient stone as a pillow when he dreamt of a ladder to heaven.

Intriguing legend. Or is there more to it than just a legend?

The Israelites, on their way to Palestine, supposedly carried Jacob’s stone with them when they left Egypt...along with Joseph’s bones. And the stone was used in the crowning of the kings of Israel...or so the story goes.

But, if this stone meant so much to the Jews, why did they allow the Irish to end up with it? Or rather the Scots, which supposedly carried it with them from Eire when they moved into Scotland.

Anybody know the details of this legend?


25 posted on 06/17/2008 3:40:15 PM PDT by sasportas
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To: navyguy

26 posted on 06/17/2008 3:43:11 PM PDT by blam
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To: sasportas

Arabs used to worship rocks, mostly black ones. In fact they still do. Just one now.


27 posted on 06/17/2008 3:43:21 PM PDT by Lady Jag (Donate to FR anytime at https://secure.freerepublic.com/donate)
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To: sasportas
Stone Of Scone

The Stone of Scone, also known as the Stone of Destiny, is seen as of huge significance to Scotland's nationhood. It was the seat on which generations of Kings of Scotland, and perhaps Kings of Dalriada before them, were crowned.

Until 1296 it was housed at Scone Abbey, where the coronations of Kings of Scotland took place: the last being of John Balliol. But Edward I of England stripped Scotland of all emblems of nationhood in 1296, and took the Stone of Destiny to a new home in Westminster Abbey. For the next 700 years it was to be housed in a specially-built coronation chair, on which Kings and Queens of England, then of Britain, were crowned.

The legend of the Stone of Destiny goes back over 3000 years. It is said that Ramses II of Egypt had a daughter called Scota. After the Israelites crossed the Red Sea, Princess Scota left Egypt and roamed the middle east for over a thousand years looking for her own promised land. Later she wandered further afield, crossing Spain en route to Ireland. Eventually, from the north coast of Ireland, she saw what she had been seeking for so long: what would later become Scotland. The Scots and the Picts, one version of the legend continues, were both the descendents of Princess Scota and her consort, Gathelos, a Prince of Scythia (part of modern Iran).

When Scota arrived in Scotland, the story continues, she had in her luggage a block of sandstone weighing 152kg. This had been used as a pillow by Jacob when he had the dream reported in Genesis about Jacob's Ladder. The Stone of Destiny, as it became known, was first located at Dunadd during the time of Dalriada, before being moved to Scone by King Kenneth I.

Until Christmas Day, 1950, the Stone of Destiny remained where it had been placed by Edward I, in Westminster Abbey. Four students from Glasgow University broke into Westminster Abbey in the early hours of the morning and removed the stone, accidentally breaking it in two as they did so. The stone was subsequently repaired by a Glasgow stonemason before being hidden in a tractor repair shed a Firemore, north of Inverasdale in Wester Ross.

But it was becoming clear that public opinion in Scotland was not as overwhelmingly in favour of the removal of the Stone of Destiny as the perpetrators had hoped. So on 11 August 1951 the Stone of Destiny was left, covered in a Saltire, at the altar in the ruins of Arbroath Abbey. It was returned to a repaired Coronation Chair in good time for the Coronation of Queen Elizabeth II (who ought to be know north of the Border as Queen Elizabeth I of Scotland: the first Queen Elizabeth was not Queen of Scotland) in 1953.

On 15 November 1996, as a result of an initiative by the Conservative Prime Minister John Major, the Stone of Destiny returned to Scotland once more, this time under military escort as it crossed the River Tweed at Coldstream. In now lives alongside the Honours of Scotland in Edinburgh Castle, though it will be returned to Westminster Abbey when needed for Coronations. Many saw this as a political ploy to resurrect the Conservatives' failing support in Scotland. It didn't work: the 1997 General Election saw the Conservative Party emerge without a single Scottish seat in Parliament.

Rumours persist about the Stone of Destiny. Some say that monks at Scone Abbey switched the stone and that what Edward I took to England was not the real Stone of Destiny. Others claim that those who stole the stone on Christmas Day 1950 switched the stone, and that what was returned on April 1951 was not the original: which was instead hidden in a peat bank in Wester Ross. As with everything else to do with the Stone of Destiny, the importance of the symbolism surrounding it far outweighs the block of sandstone itself, all 152kg of it.

28 posted on 06/17/2008 3:49:37 PM PDT by blam
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To: ikka
QEII and Prince ChuckleHead are Germans by ethnicity.

"By ethnicity" how far back?

Do we have to relive the Norman Conquest all over, or can we concede that there is indeed a race today that can truly be called "English?"

29 posted on 06/17/2008 3:53:45 PM PDT by IronJack (=)
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To: ikka
you do know that the “House of Windsor” is more properly termed the “House of Saxe-Cobourg Gotha” right?

Actually, Queen Elizabeth's husband, Prince Philip, is from the House of Battenberg, which, in its anglicized form, is "Mountbatten." Prince Charles is actually a Mountbatten. The Queen is from Victoria's lineage -- Saxe-Coburg-Gotha.

30 posted on 06/17/2008 4:02:30 PM PDT by IronJack (=)
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To: IronJack

And the Saxe-Coburgs were not thought very highly of by the bulk of German royalty for associating with those “white trash” Battenbergs.


31 posted on 06/17/2008 5:05:41 PM PDT by nkycincinnatikid
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To: x; blam
Better known as the Scone of Stone

The Scone of Stone and the authenticity thereof is a plot point of one of Terry Pratchett's discworld novels. Don't recall which one, though...

32 posted on 06/17/2008 5:13:15 PM PDT by Vroomfondel
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To: blam

Thanks for the info. I note the article says that Princess Scota brought the stone of destiny to Scotland, but it didn’t say how she came to be in possession of it. It still doesn’t answer how something of such obvious significance to Jews would have wound up in the possession of an Egyptian Princess... in Scotland.


33 posted on 06/17/2008 5:22:17 PM PDT by sasportas
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To: blam

The Coronation chair used to contain the Stone of Scone. When I saw the chair a few years ago in Westminster Abbey I was shocked that lots of people have managed to carve their initials into it. I thought this carving was a sign of the the times but according to Wikipedia it goes back over two centuries.

34 posted on 06/17/2008 5:35:19 PM PDT by wideminded
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To: blam
Well Kiss My Blarney Stone.
35 posted on 06/17/2008 5:48:02 PM PDT by gitmo (From now on, ending a sentence with a preposition is something up with which I will not put.)
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To: agere_contra
Funny, funny.

They're all krauts. Here's a lineage chart through 1066 for the Kings.
http://www.thejournal.org/studylibrary/timelines/english-monarchy-lineage-first-kings-of-england-large-chart.html

Here's a lineage chart from 1832.
http://www.thejournal.org/studylibrary/timelines/english-monarchy-lineage-first-kings-of-england-large-chart.html

And then there's this flap:
<Please,please, please stop referrring to the 'British monarchy' as 'English'. There hasn't been a English monarch since 1066. First there were Norman French, then Angevin French, then Welsh , the Scots, then Dutch, then German... leading us to the current lot, the Saxe-Coburg Gotha's, whoops sorry I meant 'Windsor'...

http://www.scotland.com/forums/history/19035-british-monarchy-3-print.html

I'm out of here...!

36 posted on 06/17/2008 6:39:12 PM PDT by Banjoguy (Nancy Pelosi and the Democrat party are enemies of The Republic.)
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To: nkycincinnatikid
the Saxe-Coburgs were not thought very highly of by the bulk of German royalty for associating with those “white trash” Battenbergs.

I know that Prince Philip's family is closely related to the royal family of Greece, and that they were related to the Russian czars (Alexander & Nicholas) and Nicholas II's czarina, Alexandra.

Suffice it to say that most Western European nobility is ... to put it politely ... inter-related.

37 posted on 06/17/2008 7:44:27 PM PDT by IronJack (=)
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To: IronJack
Famous DNA
38 posted on 06/17/2008 8:16:18 PM PDT by blam
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To: blam; StayAt HomeMother; Ernest_at_the_Beach; 1ofmanyfree; 21twelve; 24Karet; 2ndDivisionVet; ...

· join list or digest · view topics · view or post blog · bookmark · post a topic ·

 
Gods
Graves
Glyphs
Thanks Blam. They should check the bottom, see if there's a little sliding door with a key inside. No one to ask who would know where the "real" stone wound up.

When the Stone was heisted back in the 1950s, and finally returned some years later, it was suspected (and later claimed) that it wasn't the same stone. So, I guess the joke's on everyone who thinks they're emperor if some moistened bink lobs a scimitar at them.

To all -- please ping me to other topics which are appropriate for the GGG list.
GGG managers are Blam, StayAt HomeMother, and Ernest_at_the_Beach
 

· Google · Archaeologica · ArchaeoBlog · Archaeology magazine · Biblical Archaeology Society ·
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39 posted on 06/17/2008 9:55:37 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (https://secure.freerepublic.com/donate/_________________________Profile updated Friday, May 30, 2008)
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To: SunkenCiv

Google “Lia Fail” or click this link:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&q=irish+coronation+stone&btnG=Search

Have a blast....:)

[when was the last time “the stone cried out”?”]

Non-WASP Salamander


40 posted on 06/17/2008 10:53:58 PM PDT by Salamander (And don't forget my Dog; fixed and consequent......)
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To: Salamander
when was the last time “the stone cried out”?”

1002 AD, the recognition of Brian Boru as High King of Ireland.

41 posted on 06/18/2008 2:31:47 AM PDT by Drammach (Freedom - It's not just a job, It's an Adventure)
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To: DannyTN

And I’ve got the stone of silliness


42 posted on 06/18/2008 5:09:15 AM PDT by Mr. K (Some days even my lucky rocketship underpants don't help)
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To: blam

Well, we Americans have our own “Stone of Density”, aka John McCain’s brain...


43 posted on 06/18/2008 5:22:28 AM PDT by tarheelswamprat
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To: jeffc
"Sounds like a good plot for National Treasure 3 . . ."

Excellent!!

44 posted on 06/18/2008 5:23:23 AM PDT by mass55th
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To: SampleMan
German.

Really? Who might that king be?

45 posted on 06/18/2008 5:28:02 AM PDT by pgkdan (Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions - G.K. Chesterton)
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To: kalee
Here's another article about Mike from an Australian newspaper. I managed to download a program from a UK website a few years ago. It was entitled "The Real King of England," and it was pretty interesting:

Aussie Mike the True King of England

46 posted on 06/18/2008 5:36:53 AM PDT by mass55th
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To: IronJack

Yes, there are English people. But they are not the royals; the royals are German which goes back to, someone correct me if I’m wrong, 1714 after the death of Queen Anne. None of her many children outlived her and there was fear of a Catholic retaking the throne. So the closest Protestant Stuart descendent was found in Hanover and he became King George I.


47 posted on 06/18/2008 6:23:31 AM PDT by twigs
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To: Drammach

It was a somewhat snarkey, rhetorical question but thanks for answering....;D


48 posted on 06/18/2008 7:06:35 AM PDT by Salamander (And don't forget my Dog; fixed and consequent......)
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To: navyguy

The Tudors considered themselves Welsh, but Elizabeth I was the last of the line.


49 posted on 06/18/2008 9:10:30 AM PDT by colorado tanker (Number nine, number nine, number nine . . .)
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To: blam
A great example of liberal thinking, blam. The Minister feels the stone isn't genuine, therefore it isn't.

Given what we know about Edward, I rather doubt anyone could have denied him what he wanted.

50 posted on 06/18/2008 9:12:51 AM PDT by colorado tanker (Number nine, number nine, number nine . . .)
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