The Mormon Temple in Salt Lake City
Posted on 06/19/2008 6:43:30 AM PDT by SkyPilot
A scrappy Web site that's built a reputation for taking on Goliath-sized corporate and government corruption is now fighting a holy war over copyright infringement.
Wikileaks.org — a watchdog Web site that leaks corporate and government documents — hasn't officially launched, yet it has already uncovered human-rights violations in China, claimed to have swayed Kenya's Dec. 2007 elections and exposed the inner workings of the U.S. detention camp at Guantanamo Bay.
So many were surprised when it recently turned its sights on two lawyer-heavy religious groups: the Mormons and the Scientologists.
The Mormon Temple in Salt Lake City
(Excerpt) Read more at foxnews.com ...
Ping
Has Wikileaks done any exposing of islamic secrets? Or do they lack the nerve for that sort of sand?
Interesting.
I am well aware of the heavy handed legal threats from Scientology, but was unaware there was a history of this in the LDS church as the article alleges.
Does anyone know of such cases?
But the group defends its motives, saying that exposing secret information empowers people, as in the case of the Mormon church document. "The document is not available to the public or to women in the Mormon church. In fact, a number of Mormon women wrote us describing how happy they were to see this information listed," Assange said.
That is intesting too.
In mid-April, Wikileaks took on the Mormon church, officially known as the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, releasing the secret version of the church's Handbook of Instructions. The materials, not available even to most Mormons, included information on how the church hierarchy deals with matters of discipline, excommunication and apostasy. The church issued legal warnings demanding that the information be taken down, and even sent threats to the Wikimedia Foundation — the not-for-profit that operates WikiNews and Wikipedia — for linking to the material in a WikiNews article. LDS church spokesman Michael Purdy wrote in an e-mail that there is nothing particularly newsworthy in the material and said it is used as "a reference guide to assist local Church leaders in managing Church affairs. "However," he wrote, "the material is copyrighted. Copyright infringement is a concern for many organizations."
The words of Christ that He did "nothing in secret" fill me with comfort and peace these days.
20Jesus answered him, I spake openly to the world; I ever taught in the synagogue, and in the temple, whither the Jews always resort; and in secret have I said nothing.
John 18:20
Scientology. Pffft. I have to give credit where credit is due.
Best. Scam. Ever.
P.T Barnum is probably rolling over in his grave wondering why he didn’t think of that.
wikileaks.org — what have they done to uncover anything about liberal organizations?
Why was my post #7 removed?
I thought that duplicate posts of articles were *supposed* to be pointed out, are they not?
You are pouring gas on a flamewar. Your characterization of your comment is inaccurate.
Sure. I’ll drop everything I’m doing and get right on it.
Two bizarre cults. Mormonism is similar to Islam. That is, it involves a “prophet” having dreams based on the Judeo-Christian scriptures and paganism (spiritualism was the paganism of Joseph Smith’s times). But Scientology is a whole new type of animal. It’s very similar to Marxism in some ways, and I’m sure leftist thinking and practice went into it, at least unconsciously. It’s also much more powerful among many of our image leaders (media and government people) than most of us know. In any case, both of them are impenetrable and dangerous, so wikileaks is to be congratulated.
If there’d been a wikileaks at the time of Mohammed, there’d be no Islam. Information is very important.
I would suggest the move be made and this thread be left in news.
Thanks
mark fer later
Careful Foxx, I think somebody might not have had their coffee yet. I’m stepping away from here verrrrrry carefully. ;)
Comparing any religion to Islam is an insult, especially Mormons who are good Americans right next to us in this fight bleeding to fight Islamists. Every religion looks like a bizarre cult from the outside. How do you think we Christians look to non-Christians? We have a belief that A cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and tell him telepathically to accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree...
Actual quote on how non-Christians view Christianity..
What secrets? Their holy book, the Koran, says kill the infidel. Their associated stories about Muhammed and his early followers, the Hadeeth, say kill the infidels. The recent books and recordings published by the Wahabists in Saudi Arabia, paid for by the cash we send to them for oil rather than drilling our own, say kill the infidel. About the only secret is where today's car bomb will be detonated.
I agree with the Moderator, I went to the thread you referenced in that post out of curiousity, came back here to tell you what I thought of your childish antics and found your post had been removed. I thought you were just downright rude on that thread. You may not agree with someone’s beliefs, but you should not mock them.
I wonder what would happen if they got hold of and released secret documents from the Vatican.
All documents from the Vatican have been “released” or are publicly available to researchers.
You wrote:
“OK, I can see them taking on $cientology, but no matter what you think about them theologically, Mormons are a legitimate religion.”
Actually, wouldn’t what one thought of them theologically determine (as least in the subjective sense) whether or not Mormonism is a legitimate religion?
I think Scientology and Mormonism are both man made inventions. Neither is legitimate as a religion, therefore. Scientology is a cult while Mormonism is not or is less so, but still, neither is legitimate.
Actually, Scientology even has cash payment requirements; Mormons may tithe, but Scientologists want the bag of money up front. I still think the most effective cash-generating cult was Islam, which legitimized the raids of the camel bandit, Mohammed, on nearby peaceful Christian and Jewish cities and ended by making such raids a duty of the cult. Not bad!
And yet Jesus revealed the meaning of the parables ONLY to the Apostles and Disciples. He refused to tell their meanings to the crowds!
Jesus did plenty in secret, and said plenty in secret. What He didn’t do was say one thing to the public and then teach secretly something else (something opposite) to others.
Every religion, when viewed by other religions, is considered a man-made invention. Based on that standard, if you are a Christian, you consider Buddhists, Hindus, heck, even other Christian sects at time, 'cults' because you think they are man-made religions.
Re·li·gion
–noun
1. a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.
2. a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects: the Christian religion; the Buddhist religion.
3. the body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs and practices: a world council of religions.
4. the life or state of a monk, nun, etc.: to enter religion.
5. the practice of religious beliefs; ritual observance of faith.
6. something one believes in and follows devotedly; a point or matter of ethics or conscience: to make a religion of fighting prejudice.
..and do either hold a candle to the Roman Catholic Church or Southern Baptist Convention in terms of booty?
“Joseph Smith was an absolute genius for designing a new religion that legitimatized acquiring as much poontang as possible.”
I know little about Mormons, other than their missonaries are very annoying and get deported from Israel for lying about not be missionaries.
Scientology is a serious scam that has hoodwinked many a secular Jew. I opine it is because their very soul cries for knowledge of the divine (perhaps no different than other people, but I do not know other people) -— secularism is empty, and something fills the void. Scientology has an apparent superficial logic to it, is “new” and thus tricks people in.
Neither, however, can hold a candle to Islam. I used to defend Islam as a very valid Noahadic relgion, perhaps closest to Judaism, in that it stresses worship of the one God. I have learned differently.
And I dare say is being done now, only their lawyers are very good at goading people into not reporting their real agenda.
You wrote:
“Comparing any religion to Islam is an insult, especially Mormons who are good Americans right next to us in this fight bleeding to fight Islamists.”
I agree many Mormons are wonderful people and great patriots, but Livius is right to point out that the two are similar:
started by prophets from nowhere with no previous connection to Judaism or Christian origins
supposedly revealed holy books
rather convenient special revelations - especially in regard to the polygamy of the prophet
polygamy, etc.
There are a number of similarities.
“It doesn’t hold a candle to the LDS, which has orders of magnitude more wealth, power, and most importantly, BOOTY! “
Ok. Excellent point. If they could just find a way to mix in various recreational pharmaceuticals and market it correctly, you’ld have a trifecta. Califoria would be ripe for takeover.
The key word is not “religion” but “legitimate”.
le·git·i·mate (l-jt-mt)
adj.
4. Authentic; genuine: a legitimate complaint.
Neither Scientology nor Mormonism are legitimate. Yeahm they’re both religions according to the law of the US of A, but neither is legitimate.
You also wrote:
“Every religion, when viewed by other religions, is considered a man-made invention.”
Untrue. Christians do not view Judaism as man-made, for instance.
“Based on that standard, if you are a Christian, you consider Buddhists, Hindus, heck, even other Christian sects at time, ‘cults’ because you think they are man-made religions.”
Incorrect. You are not trying to conflate two entirely different ideas. A religion can be not legitimate and still not be a cult. I do not believe the two are the same, and shame on you for trying to make it sound like I do believe that!
But legitimate is a matter of opinion. Whether something is a religion actually has a recognized and measurable definition.
And I'm still waiting for the oh-so-daring Kathy Griffin to make a joke about muhammad...
You wrote:
“..and do either hold a candle to the Roman Catholic Church or Southern Baptist Convention in terms of booty?”
Do you know what he meant with “booty”? He wasn’t talking about pirate plunder. He was talking about the OTHER booty, as in booty call.
Think, Polygamy.
I think both terms of ‘booty’ can apply in this case.
Aren't all religions technically "man made inventions"?
Had a high-school girlfriend that was a Scientologist. Sweet girl, a bit crazy, but she was ... uh ... “top-heavy” ... so what did I care?
H
You wrote:
“But legitimate is a matter of opinion.”
Yes and no. First, I wrote this in MY FIRST POST IN THIS THREAD (post #23): “Actually, wouldn’t what one thought of them theologically determine (as least in the subjective sense) whether or not Mormonism is a legitimate religion?” Notice how I mention the “subjective sense” there? So I already covered this fact two dozen posts ago! Keep up, man!
But, no, there must be by definition an absolute truth by which religions are judged and neither Scientology (founded as a scam) nor Mormonism (founded by a con man) could pass that test precisely because there’s no reason to believe their founders were LEGITIMATE prophets or revelators sent by God.
“Whether something is a religion actually has a recognized and measurable definition.”
Did I dispute that? Again, LEGITIMATE is the key word you used. There are thousands of religions and religious groups out there, but they can’t all be legitimate. This is basic common sense.
You wrote:
“I think both terms of ‘booty’ can apply in this case.”
Really? So you think Mormons got pirate’s plunder? Pray tell from whom? I think it’s pretty clear what Semantic meant when he used the word “poontang”. Or do I need to define that word for you too? And I think he’s right to a certain extent. I do think Joseph Smith introduced polygamy to excuse his own sexual excess.
You wrote:
“Aren’t all religions technically “man made inventions”?”
I don’t think so. How is, for instance, Judaism man made? Let’s say the claims of Jews are true: their scriptures are inspired, their central laws were written with the very finger of God, they were led by prophets whom God spoke through, they have a convenantal relationship with God...
None of that sounds man made to me. Now, we could say the Talmud is man made, sure. The Temple may have been designed by God, but it was made by men, sure. But I can’t say Judaism is man made - and I’m not Jewish either.
Do these religions legitimately exist? Yes.
Do they have a right to believe what they want? Yes.
Do I personally think that both religions are a scam on unsuspecting people? Yes.
Isn't the Wiki organization just posting the documents of these religions that they themselves generated? Yes.
So why is Scientology and Mormonism afraid of their documents being shown to the world?
If they are legitimate, won't they have even more converts? Answer that one for yourself.
Isn't this the supposed basis by which Joe Smith founded Mormonism? And for that matter, nearly all western religions?
At the end of the day it was man who 'invented' for lack of a better word, each religion.
And also at the end of the day, if there is one and only one true God, then there is one and only one true and correct religion. None of which do I have enough understanding of to proclaim to be that one true religion.
Others are easily dismissed at not the one true one. Such as scientology, mormonism, and islam.
Pronounced, I do believe, as "bootay", as in booty call.
In reference to many (all?) religions, the successful ones tend to address cultural taboos or prohibitions eg LDS was created in a period of severe sexual repression, Islam legitimized theft (in the name of God), etc. One could even hypothesize that Christianity was formed to embrace passivity & fatigue with militarism vs the Romans.
Religions are created every generation; one simply needs to address the PC of any era to create a righteous shield against criticism.
You wrote:
“Isn’t this the supposed basis by which Joe Smith founded Mormonism?”
No. Mohammed and Joseph Smith claimed things and people believed them. Jews - an entire nation - saw and experienced things. There were no miracles, for instance, in the early stories about Muhammed. Those came later when Christians noted there absence.
“And for that matter, nearly all western religions?”
Again, no. Until recently, there was only ONE western religion - Christianity - and its experience was different than both Islam and Mormonism.
“At the end of the day it was man who ‘invented’ for lack of a better word, each religion.”
Incorrect. You are simply making a sweeping statement with no support whatsoever. What man started Christianity? What man started Judaism?
“And also at the end of the day, if there is one and only one true God, then there is one and only one true and correct religion.”
There is only one complete and absoultely true religion. One God does not preclude several partially true religions or even tens of thousands of partially true religions.
“None of which do I have enough understanding of to proclaim to be that one true religion.”
Fine. How would you resolve that problem?
“Others are easily dismissed at not the one true one. Such as scientology, mormonism, and islam.”
I agree on that score.
Placemark
Are they? Is there a continuous record back to Roman times? Do the archives hold stuff rescued from Constantinople? How can I access them...or at least the index?
The difference being that Joseph Smith went after women, and the Catholic priests went after little boys?
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