Skip to comments.Was the Holocaust Inevitable? ( Patrick J. Buchanan )
Posted on 06/20/2008 8:12:50 AM PDT by kellynla
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I try to like Pat but he just makes it so damn hard.
He’s right about a lot of things but when he misses, he really misses.
The Holocaust is a losing issue for him. He doesn’t know near as much as he thinks he knows so he should just keep his damn mouth shut on this issue. I think this one issue has ruined him, politically.
At some point the remaining John Birchers will die off, and Pat will be out of business. But I agree, he's a useful idiot for the left. I almost think he does it on purpose, out of spite for being rejected.
Take those two sentences and dissect them.
I agree that the extermination of Jews and others was not a cause of the war.
And in some cases, it was a consequence of the war in occupied lands....maybe....France, Italy, the Balkans , the USSR admittedly...over a million Jews I think etc.
But most of the victims came from Poland and Germany-Austria which would have happened even without a “World War”....neither a cause or consequence of the broader war but would have happened anyway after the Poland invasion.
So Pay is only partly right and in whole wrong.
For someone who is on occasion quite astute, he is very wrong on some key matters.
Why on earth does Pat think France and England should have just sat on their hands after Poland was invaded?
Where Hitler really screwed up was declaring war on the US and breaking his peace with Russia too early.
Pat takes too much liberty with the fact that most Jews and others were killed after 1940.
Pat has no staying power. That’s why he is always trying to re-invent himself. He’s a whiner.
He said it again on the Howie Carr Show. He is nuts. He blamed Poland for the war as well. All Hitler wanted was Danzig he said.
10 years WFB and National Review read Pat Buchanan out of mainstream conservatism due to his nascent anti-semitism.
I wonder if it is too late for Pat to file papers to run for the Presidency in Iran?
It seems he would be a shoe in.
It's easy to get into Russia. It's hard to get out.
Apparently Buchanan has never heard of Plan Z: the Nazi plan to build a great fleet in order to neutralize the British advantage.
Hitler began constructing an aircraft carrier in 1935.
Why did he not demand the French fleet when France surrendered?
Part of Hitler's propaganda was that France would remain an independent republic following the surrender and retain possession of all its military resources - this was to give the Vichy regime the appearance of governing a France that was a willing ally of Nazi Germany.
Regardless of what the formal terms of the treaty dictated, the Vichy regime was a Nazi puppet state and its army and navy were Nazi property as a practical matter.
It didn't much matter, since the UK Royal Navy destroyed France's North Atlantic vessels or incorporated them into the Free French Navy, and the Vichy Navy was bottled up in the Mediterranean at Toulon or at Dakar in Senegal by the Royal Navy as well.
And, in 1940, the Marine Nationale was no larger than the Italian Navy anyway.
In order to swallow Buchanan's analysis, you need to believe that Vichy France was a free and independent state that was an equal partner in a voluntary alliance with Nazi Germany.
And just think: Patsy is the go-to conservative for MSNBC.
Britain losing her empire was inevitable, I think most people realize that. Considering that the same thing happened to every European power, placing blame on Churchill is disingenious.
He is a whore.
Nothing more than a sad bid for attention. Mr. Buchanan has reached the point where the only way anyone will print his name is for him to trot out his odd notions about history and foreign policy. And so he keeps doing it.
It's too bad. At one time he was a clear thinker.
The Holocaust was not a cause of the war, but a consequence of the war. No war, no Holocaust.
Huh? So, no Inquisition, no Torquemada?
I think you don't get what he's saying. He is saying that the preconditions that empowered Hitler were engendered by the aftermath of WWI.
Remember that not long before Hitler became chancellor, the city of Berlin had been taken over by the Spartakusbund, a rabidly communist party comprising many Reform Jewish leaders, particularly Polish Jewess, Rosa Luxemburg. The Spartakusbund brought crushing strikes and depravity to Berlin, which was rapidly becoming the San Francisco of Germany. It was to be the first step in a nationwide communist takeover repeating a first attempt in 1848. These folks had the German middle class shaking in their boots. Not a few fell into Hitler's arms out of fear.
Toss in news of the Balfour Declaration as a cause of America's entry into WWI and Germany's resulting loss. That was easily portrayed as a betrayal in return for the historic accommodation the Germans had shown for the Jewish people, despite the fact that the agreement had been concluded by radical Sabbatean bankers who had nothing but antipathy for the Orthodox Jewish commoner.
History is more complicated than good guys v. bad guys. People need to understand that Judaism is by no means homogeneous, but deeply divided between Orthodox and the Sabbatean left, inventors of communism in the first place.
I’m just finishing the Max Hasting book. It’s excellent.
“Hes regularily published by conservative sites like Townhall and World Net Daily. Though the latter cant really be called Conservative. I dont know what the hell it is really.”
We need to write those groups and respectfully ask them to not give Pat Buchanon a platform to spread his poison.
I am against censorship, but private organizations have the right -— and responsibility — to keep not let nutbags like this spread nonsense.
Disingenuous is a very kind way of putting it.
Well, actually, before the bullets and shells started flying, it wasn't.
Germany cleaned France's clock in the Franco-Prussian War and the World went on, hardly noticing.
The traditional enemy of Britain was never Germany. It was France. In their hearts, the French still feel that way. Just ask one of them.
The Anglo-German rivalry began with the threat to British naval supremacy but that did not have to lead to war. Britain could have made room for a powerful ally on the waves that Britannia ruled rather than devastate Britain in a World War.
After World War One, a similar situation was developing between the U.S. and Britain. In the 1920's, most senior U.S. naval officers believed that the most likely future enemy of the U.S. Navy would be the Royal Navy.
Especially when that indicated a failure of Chamberlain's appeasement policies?
I agree with all your comments. It’s a schtick. Although I think it is a schtick near and dear to his malignant heart. I never for an instant liked this guy. He’s a modern John Bircher.
I tend to agree with you. Pat is primarily a hater. Unfortunately, his position on Illegal immigration which I concur with is based on hate. My position is not based on hatred of any racial group. Any racial group who gets here legally and not by illegal invasion, I welcome. The illegal invasion of this nation has become an unwelcome issue on the MSM except for Lou Dobbs. So Pat is not welcome to rant, vent, and hate against illegals. In the era of Barry, the networks not only tolerate more anti-Semtism, they will give it a voice with Buchanan who is more than happy to fall back and scapegoat the Jew who has always been the convenient scapegoat.
Not sure “Sabbetian” is the word you are looking for.
Sabbateans is a complex general term that refers to a variety of followers of, disciples and believers in Sabbatai Zevi (1626 - 1676), a Jewish rabbi who was proclaimed to be the Jewish Messiah in 1665 by Nathan of Gaza. Vast numbers of Jews in the Jewish diaspora accepted his claims, even after he became a Jewish apostate with his conversion to Islam in 1666. Sabbatai Zevi’s followers both during his “Messiahship” and after his conversion to Islam are known as Sabbateans
The late, liberal columnist Molly Ivins had the best line about a Buchanan speech: She thought it must have sounded better in the original German.
This is actually a very good point. Maybe it is time to really try to purge him. I wonder what the response here on FR would be, both from the operators of this great site, as well as from the Freeper community. Is this is a justifiable cause for Freeper activism? I think so. But I wonder what the general reaction would be to an enthusiastic, unabashed call to freepers to expunge Pat Buchanan from conservatism. Thoughts?
/Rev Wright rant
Exactly. Operation Barbarossa kicked off almost 6 weeks late because Hitler refused to start the invasion while the British were mucking around in Greece. He wanted to remove that "thorn in his side" before going ahead with Barbarossa. Guderian and OKH told him not to worry about it.
The invasion still could have met its time-table, but halfway to Moscow, Army Group center was diverted south to the Ukrain. By the time Army Group Center was back on track and moving on Moscow, it was too late to take Moscow before winter set in.
Commenting on Hitler's interference with the plans for the invasion of Russia, Heinz Guderian said, "I could never have believed that a really brilliant military position could be so screwed up in two months."
In retrospect, perhaps the most important allied effort early in the war was the attempt to help Greece against the Nazi invasion. In purely military terms on the ground, it was a failure. But it delayed Operation Barbarossa for a critical period and may have been the action that won the war. A successful operation Barbarossa may well have knocked Russia out of the war as it was intended to do. At the very least, it would have extended the war for several more years.
Jews invented communism? The word communism was coined in 1840 by John Goodwyn Barmby in reference to followers of the French revolution era Grachus Babeuf. Marx himself was the son of converted Jews who was himself quite anti-semitic. And 1920s Berlin was one of the cultural capitals of Europe filled with great writers and musicians.
Sounds like PJB is blaming Churchill for the Holocaust. He is deranged.
“But I wonder what the general reaction would be to an enthusiastic, unabashed call to freepers to expunge Pat Buchanan from conservatism. Thoughts?”
I don’t know; I am composing my emails now.
I ask others to join in.
Pat gives conservatives a bad name, and needs to go away. He does not represent conservatives and should not be used as our voice.
Can I get second? (Or a third, as I think Huck is my second.)
I have seen claims that World Net Daily is associated with alleged cult leader Roy Masters. I don’t know if that’s true, but WND has never impressed me.
The Holocaust was not a cause of the war, but a consequence of the war. No war, no Holocaust.
That's true, the treatment of Jews wasn't a cause of the war, though in retrospect most American's consider the nature of the Nazi as clear evidence of the evil we were confronting. Discarding it's relevance one must accept several things. That the pre-war treatment of Jews under the Nuremburg laws was just fine. For Jews, no citizenship, removal from jobs, pensions, loss of property. Not much to criticize there Pat, and certainly no hint as to what was to come. The slaughter of political dissidents, that's fine. So much for criticism of Stalin on that score. Can't criticize the gulags if you accept the Nazi camp system. Homosexuals, the retarded, heck, they should die.
Of course underlying Pat's worldview is the fact that Europe, East and West, under the Reich for a millenia would be preferable to a free Western Europe, the East under the Communist heel for 4 decades.
There is a whole book on the topic, To Eliminate the Opiate, by Orthodox Jewish Rabbi and Chief Justice of the Supreme Rabbinical Court of the United States, Marvin S Antelman. I suggest you read it.
Right. It was in the Med. The Brits controlled the Med.
I someone had shot the Kaiser before WWI, Hitler and Stalin may have been irrelevant.
Marx was instructed in communism by Reform Rabbi Moses Hess. See post 87.
Woodrow Wilson put two words out and the Nationalists believed him. Those two words are dogging us to this day: self determination.
I’ve read Mein Kampf.
He didn’t want to rule the world, he just wanted to rule Europe, and wanted to arrange for Japan to rule Asia and the USA to rule the western hemisphere. England, being isolated by water (he was a hydrophobe), was to be left alone as a self-governing fluke.
He laid out his plans. Yes, the Holocaust was intended. No, he did not want to take over the world, just the whole of Europe.
Although the Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion is a proven fraud, the answer is yes. See post 87.
They were treated in a way Pat would consider appropriate for a sovereign power. Strip them of citizenship, employment, and property. Nothing wrong with that is there? As I heard him comment on a radio show, it's bad, the Arabs did it too and no one complained.
I just posted a vanity on the subject. Maybe we can at least get a freeper discussion going on it and see what happens.
Hopefully it doesn’t become a flame war/dustup.
If Adolph had passed his college painting class, he would have been a forgotten artist.
Buchanan is a very warped fellow.
Yeah. Living an hour's drive from the REAL San Francisco, makes me want to overthrow the US government, take over the whole world, and kill all the Jooooooooooos.
Crystal(nacht) clear reasoning there, Carrie
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