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Inside the Solar-Hydrogen House: No More Power Bills--Ever
Scientific American ^ | June 19, 2008 | David Biello

Posted on 06/21/2008 3:28:11 AM PDT by Wonder Warthog

EAST AMWELL, N.J.—Mike Strizki has not paid an electric, oil or gas bill—nor has he spent a nickel to fill up his Mercury Sable—in nearly two years. Instead, the 51-year-old civil engineer makes all the fuel he needs using a system he built in the capacious garage of his home, which employs photovoltaic (PV) panels to turn sunlight into electricity that is harnessed in turn to extract hydrogen from tap water.

Although the device cost $500,000 to construct, and it is unlikely it will ever pay off financially (even with today's skyrocketing oil and gas prices), the civil engineer says it is priceless in terms of what it does buy: freedom from ever paying another heating or electric bill, not to mention keeping a lid on pollution, because water is its only by-product.

Slide Show: Photos show what makes this house work

"The ability to make your own fuel is priceless," says the man known as "Mr. Gadget" to his friends. He boasts a collection of hydrogen-powered and electric vehicles, including a hydrogen-run lawn mower and car (the Sable, which he redesigned and named the "Genesis") as well as an electric racing boat, and even an electric motorcycle. "All the technology is off-the-shelf. All I'm doing is putting them together."

"I'm a self-sufficiency guy," he adds. Strizki, a civil engineer, has been interested in alternative energy sources since 1997 when he began working on vehicles fueled by alternative means during his tenure with the New Jersey Department of Transportation.

Strizki's two-story colonial on an 11-acre (4.5 hectare) plot 12 miles (19 kilometers) north of Trenton is the nation's first private hydrogen-powered house, which he now shares with his wife, two dogs and a cat. (His two daughters and son, all in their 20s, have left the nest.) It has been running entirely on electricity generated from the sun and stored hydrogen since October 2006, when Strizki—in a project that his wife Ann fully supports—built an off-grid energy system with $100,000 of his own cash and $400,000 in grants from the New Jersey Board of Public Utilities, along with technology from companies such as Sharp, Swagelok and Proton Energy Systems.

The Strizki's personalized home-energy system consists of 56 solar panels on his garage roof, and housed inside is a small electrolyzer (a device, about the size of a washing machine, that uses electricity to break down water into its component hydrogen and oxygen). There are 100 batteries for nighttime power needs along the garage's inside wall; just outside are ten propane tanks (leftovers from the 1970s that are capable of storing 19,000 cubic feet, or 538 cubic meters, of hydrogen) as well as a Plug Power fuel cell stack (an electrochemical device that mixes hydrogen and oxygen to produce electricity and water) and a hydrogen refueling kit for the car.

On a typical summer day, the solar panels drink in and convert sunlight to about 90 kilowatt-hours of electricity, according to Strizki. He consumes about 10 kilowatt-hours daily to run the family's appliances, including a 50-inch plasma television, along with his three computers and stereo equipment, among other modern conveniences.

The remaining 80 kilowatt-hours recharge the batteries—which provide electricity for the house at night—and power the electrolyzer, which splits the molecules of purified tap water into hydrogen and oxygen. The oxygen is vented and the hydrogen goes into the tanks where it is stored for use in the cold, dark winter months. From November to March or so Strizki runs the stored hydrogen through the fuel cell stacks outside his garage or in his car to power his entire house—and the only waste product is water, which can be pumped right back into the system.

"I can make fuel out of sunlight and water—and I don't even use the water," he notes. "If it's raining, it's fuel. If it's sunny, it's fuel. It's all fuel."

The modular home—built in 1991—looks like a typical suburban house; its top-of-the-line insulation and energy-efficient windows look no different, and the facade hides the hydrogen-powered clothes dryer and geothermal system for heating and cooling, which pumps Freon gas underground to harvest heat in winter and cool in summer.

"Geothermal is another piece of free energy," Strizki says, noting that he dug eight feet (2.4 meters) down into the granite under his home to take advantage of the constant 56-degree Fahrenheit (13-degree Celsius) temperature underground. In summer he can use the lower temperatures underground to cool his entire house, and in winter he can capture those warmer temperatures, supplementing them with a heat pump powered by electricity from hydrogen. "Nothing goes to waste."

This year, Strizki is hardly running his $78,000 Hogen electrolyzer (manufactured by Proton Energy Systems in Connecticut, a company that makes hydrogen-generation equipment) because last year's mild winter left him with full tanks. When he does turn it on, the excess hydrogen vents from a small pipe on the roof with the sound of an impolite burp.

That vented hydrogen speeds at 45 miles (72 kilometers) per hour through the atmosphere on its way off the planet—one of only two gases, the other being helium, that escapes into space entirely because it is lighter than air. In fact, Strizki's quarter-inch thick propane tanks weigh less when filled with hydrogen than when depleted.

Of course, hydrogen is a highly flammable gas, but its quick escape eases Strizki's fears that it might ignite or explode. It "disperses faster than any other gas," he notes. "Hydrogen won't sit around waiting for a flame."

The final piece of Strizki's energy solution is dubbed "Genesis," his $3-million aluminum Mercury Sable, one of 10 that carmaker Ford produced in the 1990s to test how well the lighter metal would fare in crash tests. Ford gave Strizki the special model to drive in the Tour de Sol solar car race in New Jersey in 2000. Strizki installed a 104-horsepower electric engine (compared with a Toyota Prius's 44-horsepower motor) that can reach speeds of 140 miles (225 kilometers) per hour. Pop the hood and next to the electric engine sit two fuel cell stacks that convert hydrogen and oxygen into water and electricity, propelling the electric engine forward smoothly and quickly.

The car never competed because it was not ready in time, but the unique vehicle does hold the world record for farthest travel on a single charge: 401.5 miles (646.2 kilometers), a distance which Strizki drove in December 2001. Today, Genesis shares the road with a variety of less costly fuel cell cars: Honda's new hydrogen-powered FCX Clarity, which hit the market this week leasing for $600 a month, as well as the hydrogen-powered Chevrolet Equinox test-vehicle fleet from General Motors—part of a pilot program that aims to determine how hydrogen cars might function in everyday life. Both the Japanese and U.S. automakers are betting that these nonpolluting cars will one day replace the internal combustion engine.

GM is committed to building a "mass volume" of its hydrogen fuel cell powered Equinoxes in coming years, according to Larry Burns, GM's vice president of research and development, but only if a way to refuel them exists. As it stands, the entire nation has just 122 hydrogen stations—compared with 170,000 gasoline and diesel stations.

This is part of the reason that not everyone is a fan of hydrogen. Former U.S. Department of Energy official Joseph Romm, a physicist, notes that it's a waste of time and electricity to split water into hydrogen and oxygen instead of just using the electricity directly in an all-electric, plug-in hybrid car. The debate boils down to whether batteries or hydrogen are a better way to store and deliver electrical energy.

But Strizki argues that hydrogen offers benefits that batteries do not. For example, GE Global Research found that hydrogen might prove a better way to store electricity generated by renewable resources in remote areas—such as wind farms in North Dakota or solar arrays in New Mexico—than building expensive and costly electric transmission lines. Instead, the hydrogen generated in such locations could be pumped nationwide through existing natural gas pipelines, providing fuel for a fleet of hydrogen-powered vehicles.

Regardless of whether those future vehicles are powered by hydrogen or rechargeable batteries, both would move using an electric motor that does not require polluting (and newly expensive) fossil fuels. And they would come with another important extra benefit: the batteries or hydrogen fuel cells that run the car could also serve as a backup energy source for the home. "I can plug this car into my home and run it," Strizki notes.

Strizki is now working to bring the price down enough to make homes powered by the sun and hydrogen affordable for average consumers. He says that he can build a solar-hydrogen system for as little as $90,000, thanks to dipping costs for solar panels and lessons learned in building his home. Even at that price, however, the off-grid system would be expensive compared with annual electric bills in New Jersey that average $1,500, although that number has been increasing every year, including a jump of as much as 17 percent this year.

But add gasoline costs to that—which average more than $3,000 annually, according to the U.S. Energy Information Administration—and the price becomes more reasonable, particularly because the EIA figures were calculated back when gasoline was $2 per gallon rather than the present $4. "It didn't make sense when gas was $1 but now at $4? A lot of things that didn't make sense, now make a lot of sense," Strizki says.

He is already overseeing construction of the second such home-energy system—estimated to cost $150,000—for a wealthy client in the Caribbean.

The backyard tinkerer is also working with several potential clients to construct off-grid homes in New Jersey, New York State and even Colorado, and has quit his most recent job as an installer of solar energy systems to concentrate full-time on the company he co-founded to promote the homes: Renewable Energy International. The key to bringing the price down will be newer, better generations of the component technology, particularly the electrolyzer. Fuel cell manufacturers such as ReliOn in Spokane, Wash., are already taking a page from the computer industry—employing removable individual fuel cells, known as "blades," similar to the computer blades in data centers, that can be changed individually if problems occur.

Ultimately, this suburban home may become the first of a coming hydrogen-electric economy—one that eliminates or sharply reduces the greenhouse gas emissions causing climate change—or merely another technological dead end, like Buckminster Fuller's geodesic dome or dymaxion car.

"The only way to get a zero-carbon footprint is to grab the big power plant in the sky," Strizki says. "Maybe [the solar-hydrogen house] is too expensive, maybe not as efficient as they like, but no one is saying it doesn't work."


TOPICS: News/Current Events; Technical
KEYWORDS: energy; environment; fuelcell; solarpower
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Interesting article on hydrogen energy technology available today. And to those who are going to berate the obvious---yes, it's too expensive---for now. Remember, though, that a lot of it is single-quantity prototypes, the price for which can be reduced by mass production.
1 posted on 06/21/2008 3:28:14 AM PDT by Wonder Warthog
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To: Wonder Warthog

So what makes photovoltaic cells so expensive, and is it feasible to drop the price by 90-95%


2 posted on 06/21/2008 3:34:23 AM PDT by SampleMan (We are a free and industrious people, socialist nannies do not become us.)
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To: SampleMan

Precisely. And what will be burned to generate the electrical power needed to make the solar components and ship them cross country.

Oh, that’s right. It will take more than two hours to develop those resources, so just forget it. No, we can’t./s/


3 posted on 06/21/2008 3:36:34 AM PDT by exit82 (Are the environmentalists gonna pay my heating bill this winter?)
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To: Wonder Warthog
$400,000 in grants from the New Jersey Board of Public Utilities

How nice for him. I guess he's no John Galt.

4 posted on 06/21/2008 3:37:01 AM PDT by montag813
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To: Wonder Warthog

-—the idiot sounds like a potential Democrat congressman—gets $400 grand fro the gov’t, it still will never pay for itself-—and he’s proud of it?


5 posted on 06/21/2008 3:44:18 AM PDT by rellimpank (--don't believe anything the MSM tells you about firearms or explosives--NRA Benefactor)
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To: montag813
$400,000 in grants from the New Jersey Board of Public Utilities How nice for him. I guess he's no John Galt.

The article quoted him saying he was a "self sufficiency guy"...I guess as long as one considers 80% of his support is from other tax payers as self sufficient.

6 posted on 06/21/2008 3:44:59 AM PDT by highlander_UW (illegal alien is to an undocumented worker as a drug dealer is to an unlicensed pharmacist)
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To: Wonder Warthog
That vented hydrogen speeds at 45 miles (72 kilometers) per hour through the atmosphere on its way off the planet—one of only two gases, the other being helium, that escapes into space entirely because it is lighter than air.

I didn't know the escape velocity for hydrogen was 45 mph! How does it get through the atmosphere without bumping into any other atoms like oxygen? How is it possible that there is any hydrogen left on earth?

7 posted on 06/21/2008 3:48:37 AM PDT by Soliton (Investigate, educate, then opinionate.)
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To: Wonder Warthog
Well, if someone would give me $400,000, I would never have to pay another utility bill again, either.
8 posted on 06/21/2008 4:06:15 AM PDT by Stegall Tx (I didn't leave the Republicans, the Republicans left me.)
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To: Wonder Warthog
Although the device cost $500,000 to construct, and it is unlikely it will ever pay off financially (even with today's skyrocketing oil and gas prices), the civil engineer says it is priceless in terms of what it does buy: freedom from ever paying another heating or electric bill, not to mention keeping a lid on pollution, because water is its only by-product.

I like the logic. Pay $500,000 now to avoid paying around $150,000 in utility bills later.

9 posted on 06/21/2008 4:12:21 AM PDT by Mr Ramsbotham (Barack Obama--the first black Jimmy Carter.)
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To: Wonder Warthog
Oh boy, something for nothing! Where do we sign up?

Will this elixir also cure warts, rheumatoid arthritis, genital herpes, improve memory and make a good car polish?

10 posted on 06/21/2008 4:14:46 AM PDT by Mark was here (The earth is bipolar.)
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To: SampleMan
So what makes photovoltaic cells so expensive, and is it feasible to drop the price by 90-95%

The new efficiencies they are discovering and manufacturing are doing just that, compared to earlier pricing. Consider the cost PER WATT, not per panel!

PV still has a way to go, but water heating is quite viable TODAY...

11 posted on 06/21/2008 4:14:57 AM PDT by WVKayaker ( "Life is pleasant. Death is peaceful. It's the transition that's troublesome..." I. Asimov)
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To: Wonder Warthog
One good lightning strike will turn his expensive toys back into sand and ore. Setups like this require a substantial investment in spare parts, and I bet he doesn't have a single critical spare for anything. Having your life support depend on computerized gadgets everywhere is really asking for it. A good lightning strike could shut him down for weeks, and he may not be able to personally afford to get it all up and running again.

< /2 cents >

12 posted on 06/21/2008 4:24:06 AM PDT by Dumpster Baby (Real men drink mercury)
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To: AntiKev

Here you go, ping.


13 posted on 06/21/2008 4:25:51 AM PDT by Former Proud Canadian (How do I change my screen name after Harper's election?)
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To: Wonder Warthog

In the commercials for the Honda FCX this statement is made at the end, “...[it] emits no greenhouse gases...only water vapor.”

Think about that for a minute.


14 posted on 06/21/2008 4:26:16 AM PDT by Roccus (Someday it'll all make sense.....maybe.)
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To: Soliton

i guess fect checking is optional for ‘global warming’ stories

check this one:
“In fact, Strizki’s quarter-inch thick propane tanks weigh less when filled with hydrogen than when depleted”

um.... yeah...


15 posted on 06/21/2008 4:39:25 AM PDT by Mr. K (Some days even my lucky rocketship underpants don't help)
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To: highlander_UW

you weren’t supposed to notice!

/s


16 posted on 06/21/2008 4:46:51 AM PDT by ken21 ( people die + you never hear from them again.)
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To: Mr. K
In fact, Strizki’s quarter-inch thick propane tanks weigh less when filled with hydrogen than when depleted”

Anti-gravity too? This guy is a genius!

17 posted on 06/21/2008 4:51:58 AM PDT by Soliton (Investigate, educate, then opinionate.)
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To: Wonder Warthog
"not to mention keeping a lid on pollution, because water is its only by-product."

I suppose those worn out batteries self destruct into hydrogen? I have lost all remaining respect for Scientific American for printing this drivel. The tanks get lighter as they fill with hydrogen? I can see a reporter falling for this, but the editor must have flunked eight grade science.

18 posted on 06/21/2008 4:58:46 AM PDT by norwaypinesavage (Planting trees to offset carbon emissions is like drinking water to offset rising ocean levels)
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To: Mr Ramsbotham
Typical liberal claptrap for sure. Bring down the break even cost and we'll talk. At this stage this is nothing more than a pipe dream for the general public. As an aside, East Amwell, N.J. is believe it or not, one of the most beautiful areas of the country, bar none.
19 posted on 06/21/2008 5:01:14 AM PDT by RU88 (The false messiah can not change water into wine any more than he can get unity from diversity.)
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To: norwaypinesavage
I don't know about you but I damned sure wouldn't be driving around with a large tank of compressed hydrogen gas, nor would I have several old propane tanks full of it on my property....

Talk about a match in a chinese fireworks factory.......

20 posted on 06/21/2008 5:02:46 AM PDT by Gaffer
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To: Wonder Warthog
Obviously economics wasn't one of this guy's strong points...

It only cost taxpayers $400,000 so he could be “self sufficient”... Brilliant!

21 posted on 06/21/2008 5:14:23 AM PDT by DB
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To: Wonder Warthog; All

Scientific American or FreeRepublic? Propaganda vs. Debate?

GRRRREAT thread! Thanks to all commentators.


22 posted on 06/21/2008 5:17:10 AM PDT by PGalt
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To: Stegall Tx

This is priceless.


23 posted on 06/21/2008 5:25:04 AM PDT by Eric in the Ozarks
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To: Wonder Warthog

This guy needs to contact Al Gore and sell him his system since Gore seems incapable of conserving anything - he is just capable of selling his phony philosophy to the gullible..


24 posted on 06/21/2008 5:28:19 AM PDT by hgro (Jerry Riversd)
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To: SampleMan
"So what makes photovoltaic cells so expensive, and is it feasible to drop the price by 90-95%"

I suspect that the solar cells this guy used are relatively old technology. And yes, it is feasible to drop the price drastically---Nanosolar has already developed the necessary technology.

25 posted on 06/21/2008 5:29:12 AM PDT by Wonder Warthog (The Hog of Steel-NRA)
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To: Soliton

it is either contained in a vessel or it is combined with other atoms into compounds...like dihydrogen monoxide, for example...


26 posted on 06/21/2008 5:29:13 AM PDT by stefanbatory
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To: WVKayaker
PV still has a way to go, but water heating is quite viable TODAY...

Yep. I have a solar water heater. The only problem I see is that the pump takes a lot of energy and produces a lot of heat, yet they did not design it to capture that heat. The pump should be inside the insulation jacket and designed to run at up to 200 degrees.

27 posted on 06/21/2008 5:31:21 AM PDT by SampleMan (We are a free and industrious people, socialist nannies do not become us.)
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To: stefanbatory

dihydrogen monoxide gas is the number one greenhouse gas. Much worse than CO2. Here in Pittsburgh, we have clouds of the stuff.


28 posted on 06/21/2008 5:31:40 AM PDT by Soliton (Investigate, educate, then opinionate.)
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To: Gaffer
Even at 10,000 psi, hydrogen occupies seven times the volume of gasoline that contains an equivalent amount of energy. Old propane tanks shouldn't be pressurized to more than 100 psi. If you do the math, he's carrying so little hydrogen that when the tanks blow, he's probably the only one to get killed. Darwin award candidate?
29 posted on 06/21/2008 5:33:22 AM PDT by norwaypinesavage (Planting trees to offset carbon emissions is like drinking water to offset rising ocean levels)
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To: Mr Ramsbotham
"I like the logic. Pay $500,000 now to avoid paying around $150,000 in utility bills later."

Obviously, you fail to understand the benefits of mass production. This guy built a "first prototype" system. Note that the second system he is being asked to build will only cost $140,000. And I'd wager that the third will be even less.

Now, imagine what the cost of the engine in your car would be if it was a one-off, first prototype. I'd bet it would be in the same cost region as his first system.

30 posted on 06/21/2008 5:36:01 AM PDT by Wonder Warthog (The Hog of Steel-NRA)
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To: WVKayaker
Not sure that's true any longer, given Nanosolar's success in "printing" CIGS solar cells that are project to sell for $1/watt.
31 posted on 06/21/2008 5:37:09 AM PDT by Wonder Warthog (The Hog of Steel-NRA)
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To: Mr. K
"“In fact, Strizki’s quarter-inch thick propane tanks weigh less when filled with hydrogen than when depleted”

Yeah, the reporter (and his editor) need to work harder.

32 posted on 06/21/2008 5:38:16 AM PDT by Wonder Warthog (The Hog of Steel-NRA)
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To: Dumpster Baby
"Having your life support depend on computerized gadgets everywhere is really asking for it. A good lightning strike could shut him down for weeks, and he may not be able to personally afford to get it all up and running again."

Ye gods--what a ridiculous argument. Protection against lightening strikes is well developed---starting with Ben Franklin and on to today's surge protection solid-state devices.

33 posted on 06/21/2008 5:40:17 AM PDT by Wonder Warthog (The Hog of Steel-NRA)
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To: Wonder Warthog
...given Nanosolar's success in "printing" CIGS solar cells that are project to sell for $1/watt.

I think you meant "projected", which is true. As of now, they are not proven, and being manufactured. I have often thought that slick sand wasn't the only path!

I use whale oil, seal oil, and devastate forests for my energy needs!


34 posted on 06/21/2008 5:58:00 AM PDT by WVKayaker ( "Life is pleasant. Death is peaceful. It's the transition that's troublesome..." I. Asimov)
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To: Wonder Warthog

I didn’t see two items addressed in the article (maybe I missed them). How does he store H2. Hydrogen gas will leak out through any valve that I know about. As I recall, about 15%/day finds its way out. That is why they are looking for other methods of storing hydrogen, such as hydrides.

The other point is how does he compress the hydrogen before putting it into tanks? (I presume it is compressed.)

Articles like this are “interesting” in that one can develop many novel widgets if one has the money and the time.

May the Force be with him (and continue to provide gobs of dinero!)


35 posted on 06/21/2008 6:17:38 AM PDT by Citizen Tom Paine (Swift as the wind; Calmly majestic as a forest; Steady as the mountains.)
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To: Wonder Warthog

“I suspect that the solar cells this guy used are relatively old technology. And yes, it is feasible to drop the price drastically-—Nanosolar has already developed the necessary technology.”

I wonder how those panels will fare after a good hailstorm.


36 posted on 06/21/2008 6:19:57 AM PDT by antisocial (Texas SCV - Deo Vindice)
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To: Wonder Warthog

If we could put a man on the moon in less than 10 years, we could also become energy independent...just need the vision and the will.


37 posted on 06/21/2008 6:30:01 AM PDT by Amelia
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To: Wonder Warthog

“its quick escape eases Strizki’s fears that it might ignite or explode”

That won’t always prevent him from becoming a Hindenburger.


38 posted on 06/21/2008 6:36:19 AM PDT by A Strict Constructionist (We have become an oligarchy not a Republic.)
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To: Wonder Warthog

FINALLY! The magic solution to perpetual motion and energy!

Every home in America, sitting on a Hydrogen reactor, a highly volatile gas that does not need a flame or spark to ignite. Oh yes, the American public is highly capable of handling this dangerous kind of strict technology.

Like Kermit the Frog said, “Someday I’ll find it; The Rainbow connection. The Lovers, the dreamers and me.”


39 posted on 06/21/2008 6:36:40 AM PDT by PSYCHO-FREEP (Juan McCain....The lesser of Three Liberals.")
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To: Mr. K

check this one:
“In fact, Strizki’s quarter-inch thick propane tanks weigh less when filled with hydrogen than when depleted”

um.... yeah...


I imagine that the reporter assumed that “depleted” means purged with air, as opposed to filled with hydrogen at one atmosphere.


40 posted on 06/21/2008 6:37:18 AM PDT by Beelzebubba (Guns don't kill people, criminals and the governments that create them do.)
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To: Beelzebubba

I have a question; Did the Hindenberg weigh less before or after it went down in flames?


41 posted on 06/21/2008 6:43:03 AM PDT by PSYCHO-FREEP (Juan McCain....The lesser of Three Liberals.")
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To: Amelia

“If we could put a man on the moon in less than 10 years, we could also become energy independent...just need the vision and the will.”

The political will is not likely as I see it. It will hurt Wall Steet (the oil commodity traders) and the oil companies (making your own fuel) and loss of tax revenue from heating oil and gas. Now if a true conservative was to explain that to the public...not likely they’re all politicians first it seems.


42 posted on 06/21/2008 6:45:54 AM PDT by A Strict Constructionist (We have become an oligarchy not a Republic.)
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To: antisocial
I wonder how those panels will fare after a good hailstorm.

Homeowners' insurance covers solar panels. You can also build parabolic solar collectors with reflective lexan and copper tubing, way cheaper than flat panels, thus not a big problem to replace.

43 posted on 06/21/2008 6:47:39 AM PDT by Marauder (Damn the Bolsheviks to hell.)
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To: PSYCHO-FREEP

Less


44 posted on 06/21/2008 6:50:59 AM PDT by Beelzebubba (Guns don't kill people, criminals and the governments that create them do.)
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To: SampleMan

Was just reading baout this. Right now the tech for mass viability is being mass produced.

Nanosolar is using a new production method called CIGS that can produce 33-100 times more panel at 14% solar efficiency in the same timeframe and cost as traditional panels. The old standard used to be you’d figure 4$ per watt of electricity produce but the new method could possibly drop it down to 1$ because the ability to make them faster and more efficiently. To give it some perspective, my house consumes an estimated 5-15kW of power depending on what’s running. For me to panel to provide the peak I’d need (keeping in mind this is a rough sketch of demand)$60k just for panels. Which would only save me around 150$ a month.

This new method would cut my panel cost to $15k and the rest of the system would probably ding me 4-5k. So at $150 per month that means it’d pay for itself in just over a decade. All clear after that with a lifespan of about 15-20 years. That makes it actually feasible for me and a lot of other Americans if they want total energy independence.


45 posted on 06/21/2008 6:59:25 AM PDT by Bogey78O (Don't call them jihadis. Call them irhabis. Tick them off, don't entertain their delusion.)
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To: PSYCHO-FREEP

The interesting thing about weight is it’s dependent upon gravity and displacement. We’re literally in an ocean of air. the Hindenburg when fully fueled had more mass but because it’s area was so large the air rushed under it to displace it. Now if only vacuum buoyancy was possible...


46 posted on 06/21/2008 7:09:05 AM PDT by Bogey78O (Don't call them jihadis. Call them irhabis. Tick them off, don't entertain their delusion.)
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To: A Strict Constructionist
The political will is not likely as I see it.

Precisely. After the OPEC oil embargo in 1973, it would have been a great time to begin such a project. So would have been right after 9/11.

I don't see any political or collective will for this, but I do think we need the leadership toward such a will.

47 posted on 06/21/2008 7:26:02 AM PDT by Amelia
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To: Amelia

Chevy is producing a hybrid car that runs exclusively on electricity for the first 40 miles than uses gas after that. Tesla Motors is coming out soon with their all electric...then there’s the ZAP-X.

Really if we can just hold the line now on fuel prices, we’d be in excellent shape when these cars hit the market in a year or 2.


48 posted on 06/21/2008 7:34:44 AM PDT by Bogey78O (Don't call them jihadis. Call them irhabis. Tick them off, don't entertain their delusion.)
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To: Bogey78O
What are we going to plug these all electric cars into?

Without more power plants, particularly nuclear ones, you still need a source of electricity. If the power plants are running on gas or oil, that's a problem. Coal or hydroelectric, not as much.

49 posted on 06/21/2008 7:50:39 AM PDT by Amelia
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To: Amelia; Fishtalk

We need a planner with a vision and a desire to do the will of the people, not just the connected. I see little chance at present.

Whats a little rain among friends, especially when we put up with the water logged brains in congress.


50 posted on 06/21/2008 8:29:54 AM PDT by A Strict Constructionist (We have become an oligarchy not a Republic.)
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