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Morality -- Trotskyite vs. Christian [It's Pat]
Townhall ^ | June 24, 2008 | Pat Buchanan

Posted on 06/24/2008 3:08:57 PM PDT by Alouette

Did Hitler's crimes justify the Allies' terror-bombing of Germany?

Indeed they did, answers Christopher Hitchens in his Newsweek response to my new book, "Churchill, Hitler and the Unnecessary War": "The stark evidence of the Final Solution has ever since been enough to dispel most doubts about, say, the wisdom or morality of carpet-bombing German cities."

Atheist, Trotskyite and newborn neocon, Hitchens embraces the morality of lex talionis: an eye for an eye. If Germans murdered women and children, the British were morally justified in killing German women and children.

According to British historians, however, Churchill ordered the initial bombing of German cities on his first day in office, the very first day of the Battle of France, on May 10, 1940.

(Excerpt) Read more at townhall.com ...


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Editorial; Foreign Affairs; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: antichristian; atheistsupremacist; bigot; buchanan; churchill; dresden; duelingbigots; franzliebkind; lunatic; mullahpat; patbuchanan
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Pat hits bottom, digs.
1 posted on 06/24/2008 3:08:58 PM PDT by Alouette
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To: 1st-P-In-The-Pod; 2ndDivisionVet; A_Conservative_in_Cambridge; af_vet_rr; agrace; Aiko; ...
FReepMail to be added or removed from this pro-Israel/Judaic/Russian Jewry ping list.

Warning! This is a high-volume ping list.

2 posted on 06/24/2008 3:09:26 PM PDT by Alouette (Vicious Babushka)
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To: Alouette

How come Pat does not mention the Nazi bombing of Rotterdam and Warsaw?


3 posted on 06/24/2008 3:10:23 PM PDT by C19fan
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To: Alouette

PAt confuses debating with ingorant leftists and looking at history. Pat is revising history and assuming that we are all ignorant, again. And he is ascerbic to grow up and deal with an argument as anything but a personal attack.


4 posted on 06/24/2008 3:12:01 PM PDT by rmlew (Down with the ersatz immanentization of the eschaton known as Globalism.)
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To: All

I voted for this idiot in 92... Big mistake..


5 posted on 06/24/2008 3:16:14 PM PDT by KevinDavis (Who is Obama's Puppet Master???)
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To: Alouette
Pat hits bottom, digs.

Pat's whole campaign for a revisionist rejection of our fighting WWII is just bizarre. Our bombing wasn't justified in light of Coventry, the East End, Warsaw, Rotterdam, etc.? Nonsense.

That said, the bombing effort produced checkered results, at best. The Brits couldn't hit much of anything of strategic value, bombing at night. U.S. losses from daylight bombing outweighed what value we got, at least until losses declined after we got fighter cover all the way to and from the target.

Research after the war showed rather than demoralize civilians, bombing tended to reinforce their resolve.

6 posted on 06/24/2008 3:18:19 PM PDT by colorado tanker (Number nine, number nine, number nine . . .)
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To: Alouette; wideawake

Why did Pat call his article “Trotskyite vs. Christian” when he’s talking about Churchill’s England, Hitler’s Germany and Stalin’s Russia? Is it because he’d rather have a Jewish name representing Communism?


7 posted on 06/24/2008 3:19:14 PM PDT by Borges
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To: rmlew; All

Pat and his fellow paleos is stuck in a time warp.. Mainly in the 30’s and the 50’s.. They need to stop living in the past and live in the present..


8 posted on 06/24/2008 3:23:25 PM PDT by KevinDavis (Who is Obama's Puppet Master???)
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To: Alouette

Waiting for the sniveling PATrons to emerge from their sewers to defend him.....4....3....2....1....


9 posted on 06/24/2008 3:24:42 PM PDT by TrueKnightGalahad (When you're racing...it's life. Anything that happens before or after is just waiting.)
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To: Alouette

Not defending Buchanan, but Hitchens did leave himself open to a hell of a lot of criticism. Defeating Nazism and ending the Holocaust justified the Allied tactics in toto, beyond what would be the norm in ‘mundane warfare.’ But Hitch makes it sound as IF the raids were justified as punishment—not as a strategic objective.


10 posted on 06/24/2008 3:25:19 PM PDT by Natchez Hawk (This is Sammy Israel III filling in for DB Cooper who will be returning next week,)
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To: Alouette

War is all about success and if a tactic succeeds then it is justified. It’s all about survival and defeating the enemy. When the existence of your country and your people are on the line you don’t play by Marquis of Queensbury rules.


11 posted on 06/24/2008 3:25:51 PM PDT by elmer fudd (Fukoku kyohei)
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To: Alouette
After the war, a lone Senate voice arose to decry what was taking
place at Nuremberg as "victor's justice."


You just can't make some people happy.
It was a pretty herculean effort by the US and Brits to convince
the Soviets to have a trial and to document of the Nazis' offenses.
The Soviets just wanted to have the Nazis hung/shot.
12 posted on 06/24/2008 3:27:35 PM PDT by VOA
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To: Alouette
Photobucket
13 posted on 06/24/2008 3:28:13 PM PDT by rfp1234 (Phodopus campbelli: household ruler since July 2007.)
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To: C19fan
Or ....
14 posted on 06/24/2008 3:30:46 PM PDT by BenLurkin
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To: Alouette

“The Legend of Dresden”
a scholarly and balanced account in Air Force Magazine;
a decent antidote to some of the revisionism
http://www.afa.org/magazine/oct2004/1004dresden.asp


15 posted on 06/24/2008 3:36:17 PM PDT by VOA
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To: KevinDavis
I voted for this idiot in 92... Big mistake..

Me to....sigh

16 posted on 06/24/2008 3:36:55 PM PDT by usurper (Spelling or grammatical errors in this post can be attributed to the LA City School System)
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To: BenLurkin

Surely Mr. Buchanan knows that painting was inspired by a simple
“warm-up” by The Luftwaffe before “the big game”.


17 posted on 06/24/2008 3:37:53 PM PDT by VOA
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Comment #18 Removed by Moderator

To: Alouette
I heard, decades ago that the initial British bombing of German cities was to divert the Luftwaffe from targeting the RADAR sites on the British coast ad hit other British targets instead. Cynical but logical. If you know where the planes are you can attack them effectively with a limited force. As far as so called terror bombings of German cities were concerned. It was strategically justified to kill people who could man German factories which perpetuated the German war machine. It seems, no matter what the allies did, the krauts could rebuild factories at an amazing pace. But you can't re animate dead workers. Morality has absolutely nothing to do with it.
19 posted on 06/24/2008 3:38:18 PM PDT by isrul (Help make every day, "Disrespect a muzzie day.")
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To: colorado tanker

“Our bombing wasn’t justified in light of Coventry, the East End, Warsaw, Rotterdam, etc.? Nonsense.”

As I recall, in WWI the belligerents gassed each other without too much moral outrage, but zepplins bombing cities was a great atrocity. In WWII the morality pretty much flipped 180 degrees.

OUR trouble here is that we’re giving Pat Buchanan WAY too much credibility by even listening to what he has to say.


20 posted on 06/24/2008 3:38:56 PM PDT by Owl558 ("Those who remember George Satayana are doomed to repeat him")
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To: Alouette
Keep digging any deeper, Pat, and you'll need sunlight piped down to ya........


21 posted on 06/24/2008 3:39:01 PM PDT by Viking2002 (Barak and Michelle: The Sheik and The Freak.)
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To: dennisw; Cachelot; Nix 2; veronica; Catspaw; knighthawk; Alouette; Optimist; weikel; Lent; GregB; ..
If you'd like to be on this middle east/political ping list, please FR mail me.

High Volume. Articles on Israel can also be found by clicking on the Topic or Keyword Israel. or WOT [War on Terror]

----------------------------

In case anyone is interested in Churchill as a terrorist bomber revisionism.

As an aside, the first German bombing of England was a bit earlier, January 19, 1915, from a Zepplin. But no matter, Churchill was the WWII villan.

This clown was once lauded as the moral voice of the Republican Party. Fair to say those who looked at the GOP as a bunch of loons had something to base their mistaken opinion on.

A snap of the heels to the Pat fans.

PS-A shame GWB isn't a modern day Churchill, but it's fair to say the US sucks to this day by Pat standards. We kill civilians just like Churchill and FDR did. Kind Adolph, he did nothing other than retaliate.

Pardon me while I vomit.

22 posted on 06/24/2008 3:40:36 PM PDT by SJackson (If we win Iowa, then we can move to the world as it should be, Michelle O)
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To: Alouette

As far as bombing cities, Pat didn’t start the debate. Dresden, Tokyo, Hiroshima, and Nagasaki ring a bell? We shouldn’t second guess the people of that era, but that doesn’t mean we should forget what was done. Even now, military strategists debate the necessity of the Dresden bombing and whether such acts are ever justified. That’s a healthy debate IMHO.

Pat also makes some good points about the Soviets. We formed an alliance with Stalin, an evil dictator on par with Hitler. In the process, we sacrificed the freedom of hundreds of millions of people in Eastern Europe. What we did may have been necessary to defeat Hitler, but it resulted in something less than a great victory for western civilization.

Pat is engaged in an intellectual exercise of discussing what ifs. What’s so wrong about that? Could we have stopped Hitler earlier without resorting to a world war? Probably. Hindsight is 20/20.


23 posted on 06/24/2008 3:41:06 PM PDT by CitizenUSA (Republican Who Will NOT Vote McCain!)
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To: Alouette
Neo-Nazi, historical moron, self-promoting buffoon. Is he gonna run for anything again? He's already published his campaign book, "Mein Kampaign." It is pathetic that Townhall, MSNBC, or any other media outlet still gives him ink or time to spout his nonsense.

As long as Buchanan is still spouting in public, "liberals" can say "See. See. That's what conservatices are really like. Pathetic.

Congressman Billybob

Latest article, "Barack (Rorschach) Obama"

24 posted on 06/24/2008 3:42:13 PM PDT by Congressman Billybob ( www.ArmorforCongress.com)
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To: C19fan

“How come Pat does not mention the Nazi bombing of Rotterdam and Warsaw?”

That was Churchill’s fault, somehow.

Pat is used by the MSM to paint the false picture of Conservatives as Nazis.

We should not permit that. This little Nazi does not speak for us.


25 posted on 06/24/2008 3:44:42 PM PDT by MeanWestTexan (Kol Hakavod Mossad!)
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To: CitizenUSA
Pat is lying about history, to support his thesis. Murder of the Jews (and other "undesirables") by the hundreds of thousands, took place BEFORE his magic date of when the Final Solution was officially put in place.

This is not a logical, new analysis. It is lies based on lies.

John / Billybob

26 posted on 06/24/2008 3:48:52 PM PDT by Congressman Billybob ( www.ArmorforCongress.com)
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To: CitizenUSA
Pat is engaged in an intellectual exercise of discussing what ifs. What’s so wrong about that?

Depends on whether he still cares about current politics and wants to have credibility as a commentator.

Getting a reputation for publishing things like this week after week means his opinions about other things aren't going to be given credence by most people.

Most columnists have a way of raising interesting issues without appearing obsessed by them, but right now Pat isn't showing that talent.

Pat did a lot to bring the problems of mass immigration into the political conversation, when "mainstream" or "movement" conservatives and neocons weren't interested.

But if he keeps this up he's going to be seen as the man who helped drive that debate back underground.

27 posted on 06/24/2008 3:52:10 PM PDT by x
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To: elmer fudd

elmer fudd: “When the existence of your country and your people are on the line you don’t play by Marquis of Queensbury rules.”

War is not simply about destroying the enemy. War is about achieving your nation’s objectives at least cost. If playing by Marquis of Queensbury rules achieves those objectives, you play by the rules.


28 posted on 06/24/2008 3:52:41 PM PDT by CitizenUSA (Republican Who Will NOT Vote McCain!)
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To: Owl558
Personally, I've got Pat in the raving nutter category. Too bad he ended up like this.
29 posted on 06/24/2008 3:53:09 PM PDT by colorado tanker (Number nine, number nine, number nine . . .)
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To: Alouette; Clemenza; rmlew
I made this graphic way back in 1996. He hasn't changed a bit, always trying to justify Hitler. Pitty, he's right on so many other issues and then he screws it all up by insisting Hitler was a saint.


30 posted on 06/24/2008 3:54:09 PM PDT by Cacique (quos Deus vult perdere, prius dementat ( Islamia Delenda Est ))
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To: Alouette

Another Freep thread that ignores the fact that Communist Genocide gave rise to Hitler.

http://www.lib.ndsu.nodak.edu/grhc/order/tapes/meet_again.html


31 posted on 06/24/2008 3:54:18 PM PDT by spanalot
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To: Alouette
Pat, IMHO, continues to marginalize himself. It is bad historiography to ignore the context of the times in which momentous, terrible decisions must often be made. The Allies were convinced, I think rightly, that Hitler and Co. constituted an existential threat that demanded immediate and extremely violent attention. Stalin could wait for another day, so long as he remained useful in the struggle against Fascism.

Hitchens, the Trotskyite, may leave something to be desired in his political leanings; but he has clearly recognized the grave danger created by ignoring the madness of Islamofascism in our time. Pat has missed the mark, again.
32 posted on 06/24/2008 3:56:17 PM PDT by PerConPat (A politician is an animal which can sit on a fence and yet keep both ears to the ground.-- Mencken)
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To: CitizenUSA
"Pat is engaged in an intellectual exercise of discussing what ifs. What’s so wrong about that?

Listen to Rush Limbaugh... :) ...You'll see the danger of the whole "what if" thing, and making big decisions on "wacky" "what ifs"

33 posted on 06/24/2008 4:01:13 PM PDT by PEACE ENFORCER
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To: Congressman Billybob

Congressman Billybob: “Murder of the Jews (and other “undesirables”) by the hundreds of thousands, took place BEFORE his magic date of when the Final Solution was officially put in place.”

Agreed. It’s not so much that I support his entire analysis. It’s more that I think he makes a few good points. Could the war have been averted? Could Britain have saved its empire? Was the Yalta Conference a terrible mistake, an unfortunate necessity, or a grand strategy? Were the attacks on civilians justified? All good questions I think.


34 posted on 06/24/2008 4:02:23 PM PDT by CitizenUSA (Republican Who Will NOT Vote McCain!)
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To: SJackson

SJackson: “We kill civilians just like Churchill and FDR did.”

Actually, WWII helped shape the Laws of Armed Conflict. The three LOAC principles are military necessity, distinction, and proportionality.

http://usmilitary.about.com/cs/wars/a/loac.htm

We do not intentionally target civilians. That would be a war crime. I’m no military lawyer, but I wonder if FDR and Churchill would be considered war criminals by today’s LOAC. For example, the British nighttime bombings were incredibly inaccurate and almost certainly not able to achieve their military objectives (destruction of factories, some of minimal value to the war effort). Did this violate military necessity and proportionality? Perhaps.


35 posted on 06/24/2008 4:11:48 PM PDT by CitizenUSA (Republican Who Will NOT Vote McCain!)
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To: Alouette

For later read.

I hope Pat gets a good health screen soon.


36 posted on 06/24/2008 4:13:14 PM PDT by redgolum ("God is dead" -- Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" -- God.)
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To: colorado tanker

Terror bombing didn’t work. German industrial output continued to increase until the Ruhr was over ran.

It did however mess up the logistics.


37 posted on 06/24/2008 4:15:06 PM PDT by redgolum ("God is dead" -- Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" -- God.)
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To: CitizenUSA
The problem with yelling Stalin, is that Hitler and Stalin were operational allies from August 1939 until May 1941.
The Western powers looked at a falling USSR and Nazi Germany dominating Western and Eastern Europe and chose to support Stalin to bleed Hitler.

Had we dealt with the Nazis in 1936, this would be academic.
Personally, I blame the isolationists for World War 2 and its aftermath. That includes their current bootlickers like Patty.
38 posted on 06/24/2008 4:15:59 PM PDT by rmlew (Down with the ersatz immanentization of the eschaton known as Globalism.)
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To: redgolum
And despite the bombing the Germans were able put together the Ardennes offensive completely undetected.
39 posted on 06/24/2008 4:22:54 PM PDT by colorado tanker (Number nine, number nine, number nine . . .)
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To: Cacique

I am so sick of Pat Buchanon and his thinly-veiled Nazi support.

Pat has gone beyond annoying or worth arguing about, and needs a good solid ass-kicking.

I despise him, and I despise the Enemedia for propping up this asshole as a “conservative” voice. He’s not a conservative. He’s a Nazi.


40 posted on 06/24/2008 4:31:13 PM PDT by TheThirdRuffian (McCain is the best candidate of the Democrat party.)
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To: Alouette
Ho-hum.

Why do conservative orgs/pages like Townhall and Human Events still run pieces by this Ben `Amaleq?

PS: Despite the constant blather of the "palaeos," Trotskyites are not now and have never been Zionists. In fact, they're allied with the "palaeos" on this issue.

41 posted on 06/24/2008 4:39:15 PM PDT by Zionist Conspirator (Vatiftach ha'aretz 'et-piha vativla` 'otam ve'et-bateihem; ve'et kol-ha'adam 'asher leQorach . . .)
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To: Alouette
"Pat hits bottom, digs."

At this rate, he'll need to learn Chinese soon.

42 posted on 06/24/2008 4:42:35 PM PDT by editor-surveyor (Jimmy Carter is the skidmark in the panties of American History)
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To: rmlew; All

Personally I think had Hitler not invaded the Soviet Union, we would have been fighting Germany, Japan, and the Soviet Union at the same time. Still we would have won, but the war would have been much bloodier and the lives lost been greater. I agree had we dealt with the Nazis early on, a lot of lives could have been spared. Also, we would have been fighting the Soviet Union instead and killed off Communism early on.


43 posted on 06/24/2008 5:05:50 PM PDT by KevinDavis (Who is Obama's Puppet Master???)
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To: CitizenUSA; All

It is called the enemy of enemy is my friend. Granted not a good friend but they where our allies during the war. Sometimes you have deal with the devil to gets things done.


44 posted on 06/24/2008 5:07:42 PM PDT by KevinDavis (Who is Obama's Puppet Master???)
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To: Alouette

You’re an idiot Pat. There is no “lex talionis: an eye for an eye.”

The Brits were fighting a war, killing their enemy. The Germans were committing a genocide against their own population and those of their allies.

Link to Hitchens

http://www.newsweek.com/id/141501


45 posted on 06/24/2008 5:34:22 PM PDT by dervish (Obama's "change" - Wright, Church, Johnson, Jerusalem, Public Finance, and counting)
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To: C19fan
Because it is an inconvenient fact that actually started in the Spanish Revolution with Hitler bombing Guernica and even further back with the Germans using Zeppelins to bomb London in the First World War.

The real fact is Pat is an idiot and I personally never liked him.

46 posted on 06/24/2008 5:39:21 PM PDT by Boiler Plate ("Why be difficult, when with just a little more work, you can be impossible" Mom)
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To: KevinDavis
I voted for this idiot in 92...

So did I.

That is why I will swallow my bile, eat my vomit, put a bag over my head, wrap my self in a flag, grit my teeth, and vote for McCain.

If he pays up afterward, it is just prostitution; if he doesn't, then it is rape; but either is still better than taking it in the rear from the Big-O.

47 posted on 06/24/2008 5:57:51 PM PDT by ApplegateRanch (The Great Obamanation of Desolation, attempting to sit in the Oval Office, where he ought not..)
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To: ApplegateRanch

Now that comment was not only racist, but it was also homophobic. You, sir, will be headed to a reeducation camp. Nurse Cratchet will be happy to oversee your proper treatment.


48 posted on 06/24/2008 6:04:07 PM PDT by gathersnomoss (General George Patton had it right.)
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To: CitizenUSA
If playing by Marquis of Queensbury rules achieves those objectives, you play by the rules.

And that implies that there is an effective, fair referee & ringside judges.

Barring that, wipe them out as quickly and cheaply to self as possible, unless they unconditionally surrender.

A war IS about destroying one's ememy, unless one is engaged in an AGRESSIVE war; NOT a defensive war. When attacked, all rules & bets are off.

49 posted on 06/24/2008 7:34:16 PM PDT by ApplegateRanch (The Great Obamanation of Desolation, attempting to sit in the Oval Office, where he ought not..)
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To: gathersnomoss

Geeze, I meant to get ageist & sexist in there, too. I must be slipping!


50 posted on 06/24/2008 7:36:33 PM PDT by ApplegateRanch (The Great Obamanation of Desolation, attempting to sit in the Oval Office, where he ought not..)
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