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Forget the Birth Certificate. There Are More Relevant Records. (Obama)
National Review ^ | June 26, 2008 | Jim Geraghty

Posted on 06/26/2008 12:22:15 PM PDT by Shermy

More than a few readers have asked me what I think of this article from a publication called the Israel Insider, particularly a section which suggests a Hawaiian state official has doubts about the birth certificate posted on Daily Kos and Obama’s StopTheSmears site:

Janice Okubo, Director of Communications of the State of Hawaii Department of Health, told Israel Insider: "At this time there are no circumstances in which the State of Hawaii Department of Health would issue a birth certification or certification of live birth only electronically." And, she added, "In the State of Hawaii all certified copies of certificates of live birth have the embossed seal and registrar signature on the back of the document."

I spoke to Ms. Okubo late Wednesday afternoon, and she said she had seen the version of Obama’s certificate of live birth posted on the sites. While her office cannot verify the information on a form without the permission of the certificate holder (Obama), she said "the form is exactly the same" and it has "all the components of a birth certificate" record issued by the state. In other words, she sees no reason to think the version posted on Obama's web site and Daily Kos is not genuine.

The “embossed seal” in question is, she said, probably on the back of the document provided to Daily Kos, but not visible (as in another certificate posted on Israel Insider for contrast). She thinks the difference in visibility can be attributed to the pressure used when applying the seal.

I know I was one of the guys who wondered if there was something there when Obama initially refused to provide his birth certificate to PolitiFact. It seems many people continue to think that they will uncover something that will prove Obama was born in Kenya and is therefore ineligible for office of the presidency. As I wrote in the initial post, this scenario is “rather unlikely, as it would require everyone in his family to lie about this in every interview and discussion with those outside the family since young Obama appeared on the scene.” I would add this would require Obama to lie about his birthplace in every interview going back to Harvard Law.

There are, however, other documents in the past of the Democratic nominee that would be worth a close examination. For example, they may not even exist anymore – a convenient destruction – but Obama’s office records from his service in the state legislature, particularly the correspondence, would be an interesting resource in learning more about his efforts in state government.

The Illinois State Archives told Judicial Watch that they never received any request from Senator Obama to archive any records in his possession. Similarly, in 2007, Obama said to Tim Russert that his records were “not kept.”

< snip >


TOPICS: Editorial; News/Current Events; Politics/Elections; US: Hawaii
KEYWORDS: 2008; birthcertificate; certifigate; obama; obamafamily; obamatruthfile
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1 posted on 06/26/2008 12:22:15 PM PDT by Shermy
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To: Grampa Dave; okie01

The “embossed seal” in question is, she said, probably on the back of the document provided to Daily Kos, but not visible (as in another certificate posted on Israel Insider for contrast). She thinks the difference in visibility can be attributed to the pressure used when applying the seal. “

OK..but,

“And, she added, “In the State of Hawaii all certified copies of certificates of live birth have the embossed seal and registrar signature on the back of the document.””

The writer fails to pick up on the registrar signature issue. In both documents the ink from the date on the back of the documents is plainly visible. So is the signature block on the Decosta document. However, the ink from a signature block on the Obama document is not visible. Therefore, most likely not present. If it is present, the Obama camp should be pressured to show it.


2 posted on 06/26/2008 12:26:11 PM PDT by Shermy (Handlebars, Flobots. A prophecy about egomania, megalomania and Obama.)
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To: Shermy

Geraghty misses the point altogether.


3 posted on 06/26/2008 12:27:19 PM PDT by pissant (THE Conservative party: www.falconparty.com)
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To: Grampa Dave; okie01

P.S. I stand by my assertion that being born in Kenya is a red herring. Obama wants to hide the fact that his birth certificate name was Barry Harry Obama. ;)


4 posted on 06/26/2008 12:28:08 PM PDT by Shermy (Handlebars, Flobots. A prophecy about egomania, megalomania and Obama.)
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To: Shermy
The “embossed seal” in question is, she said, probably on the back of the document provided to Daily Kos, but not visible (as in another certificate posted on Israel Insider for contrast). She thinks the difference in visibility can be attributed to the pressure used when applying the seal.

How does one emboss only one side of a piece of paper?

-PJ

5 posted on 06/26/2008 12:29:15 PM PDT by Political Junkie Too (Repeal the 17th amendment -- it's the "Fairness Doctrine" for Congress!)
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To: pissant

The paper wasn’t photoshopped.

It shows, in ink, the date stampping from the reverse side.

No forger would forge the ink dating but forget the more important ink signature block.

The document really comes from the Department of Health.

The path of its creation is the issue.

Which can be simply resolved by Obama’s people letting others take a hands-on look at it.


6 posted on 06/26/2008 12:31:33 PM PDT by Shermy (Handlebars, Flobots. A prophecy about egomania, megalomania and Obama.)
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To: Shermy
The “embossed seal” in question is, she said, probably on the back of the document provided to Daily Kos, but not visible (as in another certificate posted on Israel Insider for contrast). She thinks the difference in visibility can be attributed to the pressure used when applying the seal.

AN easy fix. smear something like pencil lead to bring out the embossed seal, And then re-image and repost the BC document online. Are the Kos kids and Obama supporters incompetent or are they just deceptive?

7 posted on 06/26/2008 12:32:30 PM PDT by Red Steel
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To: Shermy

Why is the certificate # blacked out?

African is not a race! In 1961, wouldn't Negro or Negroid have been used to describe his Father's race instead of African?

Where is the indentation of the official seal and the folded marks, the rest of us have on our valid birth certificate copies?

Last but not least: What are the reverse purple lettering past the last entry line on the lower middle right? What do they mean, and why are they there?

Did Dan Blather's liar, Mary Mapes create this bs?

Is this phoney birth certificate just another example of the Real but Fake Hussein ObamaMessiaHamas, the Islamofacist Manchurian Candidate for Changing America?

We probably have as much chance of seeing a real copy of his birth certificate as seeing John Kerry’s full military record. Kerry refused to release his military records, and Hussein ObamaMessiaHamas, the Islamofacist Manchurian Candidate will probably not show his BC. We will be labeled as racists for daring to question his birth.

8 posted on 06/26/2008 12:35:14 PM PDT by Grampa Dave ( Kerry was a Uber Liberal, Hussein ObamaMessiaHamas makes Kerry look like Jesse Helms!)
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To: pissant

The point is that Obama was born in Hawaii and postulating otherwise is a waste of time.

http://no-bama.blogspot.com/ - NObama, stop the Hype and Chains candidate


9 posted on 06/26/2008 12:36:21 PM PDT by WOSG (http://no-bama.blogspot.com/ - NObama, stop the Hype and Chains candidate)
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To: Political Junkie Too

“In other words, she sees no reason to think the version posted on Obama’s web site and Daily Kos is not genuine.”

How does one come to that certain conclusion given the spokeswoman’s actual reported words?

Some knowledgeable people here have said the embossing indentation might not show up due to the way the document was scanned. I’ve seen no explanation why the ink would show up on one document but not the other. Did the 2007 signature block use a lighter ink than years prior? Don’t know until Obama lets someone examine it.


10 posted on 06/26/2008 12:37:27 PM PDT by Shermy (Handlebars, Flobots. A prophecy about egomania, megalomania and Obama.)
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To: Shermy
The Illinois State Archives told Judicial Watch that they never received any request from Senator Obama to archive any records in his possession. Similarly, in 2007, Obama said to Tim Russert that his records were “not kept.”

You gotta love the hypocricy. Obama:

1) had sealed divorce records of his Democrat primary opponent Blair Hull exposed, revealing accusations of wife-beating and forcing Hull out of the primary, and

2) had sealed divorce records of his Republican opponent Jack Ryan exposed, revealing accusations of wanting to perform public sex acts and forcing Ryan out of the general election.

It seems that Obama can't win without destroying his opponent by exposing sealed private records. So now, people want Obama's records exposed, and there aren't any, anwhere?

-PJ

11 posted on 06/26/2008 12:39:48 PM PDT by Political Junkie Too (Repeal the 17th amendment -- it's the "Fairness Doctrine" for Congress!)
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To: WOSG

No, he posted a forgery on his official site. THAT is the point.


12 posted on 06/26/2008 12:40:16 PM PDT by pissant (THE Conservative party: www.falconparty.com)
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To: Shermy

You would see the embossing from the back...that lady is BSing... in a previous life her name was Rose Mary Woods!


13 posted on 06/26/2008 12:42:57 PM PDT by Bulwinkle
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To: Shermy
We need an answer as to why other known legitimate docs say “Date Accepted by Registrar” and Obama’s says “Date Filed By Registrar”.

WHAT IS THE SIGNIFICANCE OF THE TWO???

I think one means it is officially “accepted/approved” and the other one just says “someone has filed a BC app with the state”.

14 posted on 06/26/2008 12:43:41 PM PDT by AmericaUnited
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To: Shermy

It most certainly was photoshopped. Otherwise they Obama webiste version would match the KOS website version.


15 posted on 06/26/2008 12:43:48 PM PDT by pissant (THE Conservative party: www.falconparty.com)
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To: Shermy
Geraghty says that Janice Okubo, Director of Communications of the State of Hawaii Department of Health told him the the document could be genuine. Geesh!

She doesn't know?

How can that be? The standard and good practice is that official vital records are released and the release is logged -- the certificate, after all, has some serial number! That is part of her official duty, imo. Has she not performed her duty?

Is she running a Keystone Cops outfit, or maybe she models her office to a Chicago model?

16 posted on 06/26/2008 12:44:23 PM PDT by bvw
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To: Shermy
Some knowledgeable people here have said the embossing indentation might not show up due to the way the document was scanned.

I'm not sure I believe that, now that I think about it. How does the way it's scanned have anything to do with the way a raised seal reflects light and casts shadows? There is absolutely no evidence of a disruption in the paper, a displacement of the pattern, or anything to suggest anything other than a totally flat sheet of paper.

On the DeCosta certification, not only is the bleed-through of the signature visible, but I thought the impression of the signature on the paper is also visible. You'd think that would be visible on the Obama certificate also.

-PJ

17 posted on 06/26/2008 12:44:54 PM PDT by Political Junkie Too (Repeal the 17th amendment -- it's the "Fairness Doctrine" for Congress!)
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To: Grampa Dave

18 posted on 06/26/2008 12:45:25 PM PDT by Shermy (Handlebars, Flobots. A prophecy about egomania, megalomania and Obama.)
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To: Shermy
The “embossed seal” in question is, she said, probably on the back of the document provided to Daily Kos, but not visible (as in another certificate posted on Israel Insider for contrast). She thinks the difference in visibility can be attributed to the pressure used when applying the seal.

Ans also Ms. Okubo, where is the official signature from your office on Obama's Birth Certificate sport? You guys hand-out genuine BC documents without signing them? I believe you told Israeli Insider that your office signs each official BC document.

19 posted on 06/26/2008 12:45:32 PM PDT by Red Steel
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To: Shermy

you can see the embossing from the back...just not on o’bama’s http://www.valeehill.net/genealogy/documents/doc_decosta_pat_birth.jpg


20 posted on 06/26/2008 12:46:07 PM PDT by Bulwinkle
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To: pissant

So you say, making a claim that is extremely dubious, probably irrelevent to any real issue of qualification (Obama is certainly an natural born citizen of the US), and certainly unproven to even this die-hard opponent of Obama.

http://no-bama.blogspot.com/ - NObama, stop the Hype and Chains candidate


21 posted on 06/26/2008 12:46:39 PM PDT by WOSG (http://no-bama.blogspot.com/ - NObama, stop the Hype and Chains candidate)
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To: Political Junkie Too

See #18.

Ink from signature block + date stampping clearly visible.


22 posted on 06/26/2008 12:48:14 PM PDT by Shermy (Handlebars, Flobots. A prophecy about egomania, megalomania and Obama.)
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To: Political Junkie Too

Amazing, ain’t it?


23 posted on 06/26/2008 12:48:17 PM PDT by bvw
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To: WOSG

The claim is not dubious. It is amply demonstrated.


24 posted on 06/26/2008 12:48:38 PM PDT by pissant (THE Conservative party: www.falconparty.com)
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To: Political Junkie Too

Lets add:

3) Used legal tricks to keep Alice Palmer off the ballot in 1996 so he could win his first race.

4) ... who knows, maybe he will get the North Vietnamese commies to release the POW records on McCain to prove he was broken by the torture.


25 posted on 06/26/2008 12:49:18 PM PDT by WOSG (http://no-bama.blogspot.com/ - NObama, stop the Hype and Chains candidate)
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To: Shermy

.


26 posted on 06/26/2008 12:50:41 PM PDT by Jaded ("I have a mustard- seed; and I am not afraid to use it."- Joseph Ratzinger)
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To: Bulwinkle

What do you expect her to do?
HI is a Democrat stronghold.
Most likely all the people at the DOH are Democrats.

In Illinois....we elect our public officals to take care of our birth certificates in our county.

If she knew the truth...the guys with black bow ties will be at her door.


27 posted on 06/26/2008 12:52:33 PM PDT by Milligan (w)
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To: Shermy

This green form is what is issued today. BUT, my official birth certificate from the Territory of Hawaii (1957) and I beleive also into the 60s looks absolutely nothing like this. Thsi form simply takes information on file and puts it on a new form then “certifies” it by the registrar. The original is something completely different. I have both my adopted birth certificate and later filed one for live birth. Totally different from teh modern form and also has a lot more information like place of birth, doctor, etc.

I thought the rub here was he did not want to highlight his middle name Hussein?!?


28 posted on 06/26/2008 12:53:06 PM PDT by Liberals are Evil Socialists!
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To: Political Junkie Too
Geraghty says that Janice Okubo, Director of Communications of the State of Hawaii Department of Health told him the the document could be genuine. Geesh!

She doesn't know?

She's a knucklehead.

She could do a two-second document search through Hawaii's data base to find Obama's birth records. Obama could speed that up by given her the BC document number that is blacked out if he really knows what it is.

29 posted on 06/26/2008 12:53:23 PM PDT by Red Steel
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To: Shermy

...worth a thousand words.


30 posted on 06/26/2008 12:55:51 PM PDT by Stentor (Obama supporters. Letting the little void do the thinking for the big void.)
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To: pissant

Not to me. We have no reason to believe its not real. I’ve read the commentary on why its not. Its simply not convincing and not relevant even if it might be true.

Of you want to prove Obama a liar, it’s a lot easier to point to his brazen broken promise on campaign financing. Obama is starting to tell lies with great rapidity. Just not about where he was born.


31 posted on 06/26/2008 12:56:23 PM PDT by WOSG (http://no-bama.blogspot.com/ - NObama, stop the Hype and Chains candidate)
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To: Red Steel; okie01; Grampa Dave

“Ans also Ms. Okubo, where is the official signature from your office on Obama’s Birth Certificate sport?”

The author didn’t ask that question. Probably thought because it was on the back side it wouldn’t be visible.

Simple solution: pressure the Obama camp to allow others to personally examine it.

Another scenario: the document is “not regulation”, he obtained it illegally with an insider in the Dept. of Health in 2007 in order to test the waters—see what it would look like. Satisfied, in June 2008 he ordered one on the up and up, but one of his minions posted the wrong document.


32 posted on 06/26/2008 12:56:26 PM PDT by Shermy (Handlebars, Flobots. A prophecy about egomania, megalomania and Obama.)
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To: Shermy

Unfortunately there is no way to guarantee that copies of the front and back are from the same document. He could present the back ANY copied Hawaii birth certificate and claim it was his.


33 posted on 06/26/2008 12:57:37 PM PDT by Blood of Tyrants (G-d is not a Republican. But Satan is definitely a Democrat.)
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To: Shermy
LOL

I find too much overemphasis on trivial points about Obama and Michelle while important issues are ignored. I would like to have his questioned, among many other issues, on
*Kosovo - Does he agree with Clinton/Bush/McCain?
*his position on amnesty and an explanation for his vote against the Cronyn amendment

34 posted on 06/26/2008 1:06:48 PM PDT by Dante3
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To: Shermy

Hey, why not? It seems to have worked for Jerry Rivera.


35 posted on 06/26/2008 1:07:17 PM PDT by Clioman
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To: Dante3

Affirmative action is another issues he should clarify.


36 posted on 06/26/2008 1:08:10 PM PDT by Dante3
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To: WOSG

“We have no reason to believe....”

You may have no reason to believe it is a forgery, I have multiple reasons why I know it is.

Starting with

1) the FACT that the Obama website document and the KOS version have different alignments on the borders. They are supposed to be the same document, but they are not.....meaning that one or both had this electronically and altered it.

2) Multiple experts in graphic programs have declared it to be a fraud due to the critical info (names, dates) having been photoshopped into the document. All of the analyzes have been posted on FR.

3) The blackout of the cert number is computer generated. So OBVIOUSLY someone doctored the document. It did not come that way from Hawaii.

4) The border hatch grid is at odds with all of the other samples of HAwaii certifications of live birth that have been produced. How could that be?

5) The document is a computer generated jpg, without a doubt. Meaning that it was not a hard copy that was scanned. Hawaii does not release these electronically, according to their own spokeswoman, so how could it have been a jpg created directly from the computer?

And since it is a forgery, and Obama is posting it caliming it as legit, there better damn well be a heavy price to pay for this fraudulence, even if the info contained in it is accurate.


37 posted on 06/26/2008 1:09:49 PM PDT by pissant (THE Conservative party: www.falconparty.com)
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To: Shermy
The author didn’t ask that question. Probably thought because it was on the back side it wouldn’t be visible.

Simple solution: pressure the Obama camp to allow others to personally examine it.

Simple, apparently not for Obama.

The Kos clowns or Obama clowns can scan the back side and publish it online if the signature is there.

Another scenario: the document is “not regulation”, he obtained it illegally with an insider in the Dept. of Health in 2007 in order to test the waters—see what it would look like. Satisfied, in June 2008 he ordered one on the up and up, but one of his minions posted the wrong document.

Yes, many government docs are online, on CDs. Now Gov forms and documents are an open electronic file cabinet, but without official signatures and other certifying marks they are not valid. So you are saying that the Obama people are either incompetent or deceptive. I'd say they are both incompetent and deceptive.

38 posted on 06/26/2008 1:09:50 PM PDT by Red Steel
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To: WOSG
. We have no reason to believe its not real. I’ve read the commentary on why its not. Its simply not convincing and not relevant even if it might be true.

Well, speak for yourself ... we do have reasons and we've given them.

Could you do me a favor, could you post in your own words the reasons you've heard that we have to claim the cert is a forgery?

39 posted on 06/26/2008 1:11:16 PM PDT by bvw
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To: Shermy
"P.S. I stand by my assertion that being born in Kenya is a red herring."

Especially since Kenya didn't even exist in 1961.  From 1856 until 1963 it was British East Africa and included the present countries of Kenya, Uganda and Tanganyika.

A lot of people keep squawking about Obama showing documentation.  I suggest these same people show documentation that he was born elsewhere. BTW, blog & forum entries no matter how well reasoned are NOT documentation.  A birth certificate from another country would be documentation.  A passenger manifest with his mother's name on it would be documentation.  A copy of his naturalization records to become a U.S. citizen would be documentation. 

The Obama campaign has been extraordinarily intelligent to get him to where he is today.  To think that they would present a document to the public with this many points of interest on it is ridiculous.  They saw what happened to Dan Rather & I can guarantee that a perfect document can be produced with the money his campaign has available to spend.

Asking 'why doesn't he do so and so' isn't proof of squat.  "Where's the bleed through from the back?"  Isn't proof of anything either.  One would have to evaluate thousands of Hawai'ian birth certificates to even get to a point of statistical significance.  How does one prove that what is believed to be 'bleed through' isn't in fact 'cast off' from another document.

"the certificate, after all, has some serial number! That is part of her official duty, imo. Has she not performed her duty? Has she not performed her duty?"  ... someone writes.  Get serious! Show me in her job description where it says she is to respond to bloggers and phone calls about a subject she is sworn NOT to discuss with anyone without a need to know.  BTW Jim Geraghty is not on a need to know basis.

These threads are nuttier than tilting at windmills.

 

40 posted on 06/26/2008 1:14:44 PM PDT by HawaiianGecko
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To: bvw; pissant

Those reasons have already been summarized in #37 by Pissant.
Pissant, thanks for summarizing the case for the doubts.
I’ll let that be the last word on it.
I’m not interested in debating it further, since I believe its a dead-end rabbit trail anyway.


41 posted on 06/26/2008 1:15:22 PM PDT by WOSG (http://no-bama.blogspot.com/ - NObama, stop the Hype and Chains candidate)
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To: Grampa Dave
Why is the certificate # blacked out? African is not a race! In 1961, wouldn't Negro or Negroid have been used to describe his Father's race instead of African?

Why IS the certificat number blacked out?? Anyone ask that yet?

42 posted on 06/26/2008 1:15:34 PM PDT by Ann Archy (Abortion.....The Human Sacrifice to the god of Convenience.)
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To: Shermy

Here is an animation I created of the two certificates overlaid and faded:

http://www.members.cox.net/gmay2/birth_cert_fade2.gif

WARNING: It’s a 3.2 meg file but I wanted to keep it large enough to examine details. Let it load fully and it will cycle between the two images.

I simply overlaid the two images and scaled one to fit the outside border of the other as closely as possible, then faded one into another.


43 posted on 06/26/2008 1:19:43 PM PDT by cj2a (When you're pathetic, but you don't know you're pathetic, that's really pathetic.)
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To: HawaiianGecko
Why come to quell the tempest in a teapot then? Why bother? If we are just tilting at windmills, why the bolded italics? I know! Someone hath joineth the windmill joust!

Let's ring Dan Rather and ask him for his advice. You call him, will you? My cellphone's battery is dead or something.

44 posted on 06/26/2008 1:22:42 PM PDT by bvw
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To: HawaiianGecko

The proof is here. Read em.

http://polarik.blogtownhall.com/2008/06/20/was_obamas_certificate_of_birth_manufactured.thtml

http://web.israelinsider.com/Articles/Politics/12939.htm


45 posted on 06/26/2008 1:32:17 PM PDT by pissant (THE Conservative party: www.falconparty.com)
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To: bvw
"Why come to quell the tempest in a teapot then?"   You're right, I should keep my nose out of other people's hysteria.   Thanks for reminding me, and the bold italics are what 'others' are typing, not me.
46 posted on 06/26/2008 1:32:47 PM PDT by HawaiianGecko
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To: HawaiianGecko
It's okay. Most human to human communication -- as you probably already well know -- carries multiple messages, and some of them may be at odds with each other.

We all sort it through as best we can.

47 posted on 06/26/2008 1:36:09 PM PDT by bvw
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To: HawaiianGecko
A lot of people keep squawking about Obama showing documentation.

He has and it does not stand up to scrutiny.

The Obama campaign has been extraordinarily intelligent to get him to where he is today. To think that they would present a document to the public with this many points of interest on it is ridiculous.

Extraordinarily deceptive.

asking 'why doesn't he do so and so' isn't proof of squat. "Where's the bleed through from the back?" Isn't proof of anything either.

The Obama clowns can rescan the back side of the Birth Certificate and place the image online. Makes people wonder why they have not.

Show me in her job description where it says she is to respond to bloggers and phone calls about a subject she is sworn NOT to discuss with anyone without a need to know.

Nonsense. She's a public official. She could do a public courtesy and look up Obama on her little computer to see if Obama was born in the Hawaii. It's not a national secret.

The guy IS running for president.

48 posted on 06/26/2008 1:36:11 PM PDT by Red Steel
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To: Grampa Dave
African is not a race! In 1961, wouldn't Negro or Negroid have been used to describe his Father's race instead of African?

You know, ever since this thing began, I had that same question.
49 posted on 06/26/2008 1:43:28 PM PDT by no dems (B. Hussein is an Obamanation)
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To: Ann Archy

I have asked all of your questions.


50 posted on 06/26/2008 1:43:52 PM PDT by Grampa Dave ( Kerry was a Uber Liberal, Hussein ObamaMessiaHamas makes Kerry look like Jesse Helms!)
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