Posted on 06/28/2008 6:04:23 AM PDT by Man50D
Loganville, GA
Dear FairTax supporters: Do you want to learn more about how you can help promote the FairTax in your community? How you can answer the objections of your friends, family, co-workers? Would you like to network with other FairTax supporters to share ideas?
Then plan to join us for our first FairTax Workshop for 2008. This event is FREE.
Saturday, July 12th, 9am - 1pm.
Covenant Christian Academy
3425 Loganville Hwy (GA 20)
Loganville, GA 30052
Click here for driving directions
We have invited Congressman Linder and Senator Chambliss to join us to give updates about the progress of the legislation and what we need to do to further its progress in D.C. These workshops have been attended by hundreds of supporters since 2006 who have learned how to go back home to their own communities and raise awareness. Thanks to these supporters we have had thousands join the membership roles. But, with the upcoming elections, there is still so much left to do. So, make plans to join us!
Please RVSP today so we can make plans with handouts and refreshments
Thank you for your support of the FairTax in Georgia!
Gene Key
Georgia Volunteer State Director
Date: Saturday, July 12, 2008
Time: 9:00 AM - 1:00 PM
(Excerpt) Read more at fairtax.org ...
Can’t they just email the “talking points” to the sad masses?
1. …believe that taxing the creation of wealth is better for the economy than taxing the wealth when it is spent.
2. …believe that returning people’s tax payments to them is welfare.
3. …have no problem with a tax code that is wordier than the Bible.
4. …believe the IRS is a good department and does a good job.
5. …believe that the worst thing you could do is tax the wealth of old geezers who are living off of the sweat of the younger workforce.
6. …love to tell everyone you see that the FairTax was created by Scientologists.
7. …believe that what Bruce Bartlett says is the gospel and that scores of other credentialed economists are only paid shills.
8. …have a habit of going to online chat rooms and posting insults about the “Fairy Taxers.”
9. …think that calculating a tax the same way as the tax it is replacing is dishonest.
10. …think the economy has always been fine under the income tax.
11. …call the FairTax a “cult” because you can’t think of anything else to say.
12. …believe that cutting one tax by 25% and raising another by the same amount is inflationary.
13. …think inflation is caused by high taxes.
14. …think Milton Friedman is an idiot.
15. …have a soft spot in your heart for European style VAT’s.
16. …wrote the ten planks to the Communist Manifesto.
17. …think the prebate is Marxist but not the Communist Manifesto.
18. …sell some sort of tax advantaged product.
19. …claim you clamor for tax reform but have no earthly idea how to do that.
20. ...howl in outrage when the BATF violates the 2nd Amendment but have no concerns when the IRS violates the 1st, 4th and 5th Amendments.
21. ...believe that having the bottom 50% of income earners pay little or nothing to the government has the best chance of limiting that government.
23. ...think that people give to charity just because there is an income tax.
24. ...believe there is nothing you can do about congress.
25. ...believe that the only reason people buy houses is to take advantage of the mortgage deduction.
Whar’s Loganville?
No magic, you're right.
Did you consider the possibility that collecting tax from sources who aren't currently paying their full share of taxes would decrease the burden on us legal folks who pay all our taxes?
The overall tax burden remains stable. However, under the nrst, it comes from places that it doesn't come from now.
Ooh, gratuitous insults make your point so much more compelling! Masterfully done! And what's even better is that almost every entry on your list is a baldfaced lie! I mean, not mere spin, but an authentic, totally untempered lie!
Truly, your rhetorical skills are unique in all the ages!
Then I suggest you start taking them apart one by one Mr. Ape. Or are you too busy writing your vanity posts to do that? If you want to step into these FairTax debates with one foot in your mouth, you certainly have accomplished that.
Who even rattled your little cage Mr Baboon?
BTW, take me off of the pinglist for your idiotic vanity posts or else I’ll nitpick through each and every dreary one of them.
I'll be glad to come back by here tomorrow and point out the numerous lies in your post. The fun part is, most of them wouldn't be lies if you weren't acting like disagreeing with you on a tax method is akin to being Bill Ayers.
BTW, if you don't want people to comment on what you have written, don't post it on an Internet forum. (Try getting a blog and turning the comments feature off.) Especially, don't post it in the top thread of the Announcements sidebar.
BTW, take me off of the pinglist for your idiotic vanity posts or else I’ll nitpick through each and every dreary one of them.
If they're so idiotic, why did you ask to be on the ping list in the first place? And is that a real request, or just a threat?
IPA: Yes I have thought of this.
Then why did you bring it up as an objection? OK, so that part of of your post you agree is wrong. No worries - you don't like the nrst but you knowingly make false objections?
If it's really black market you object to, did you know that we already have such an untaxed segment? That is not new to the nrst. The income tax has that characteristic.
If it's really "unknown" you object to, did you know 45 states run a sales tax already? Basically, sales taxes are well known.
You wouldn't feel better about the nrst if it were tested - your mind is already made up. Again, the curious thing is the number of people who oppose the measure but won't tell the real reason.
Me too. Where do I sign up? Why haven't the millions and millions of us who want to cut taxes and spending had an effect?
A major reason is that the income tax is designed to prevent such changes. That's one of the reasons that a heavy, progressive income tax is the 2nd plank of the communist manifesto.
That's one of the reasons I prefer to eliminate the income tax. I am all for cutting taxes and spending. I know the income tax we have prevents it. Different rates for different groups on different kinds of income; taxes hidden in lower wages [EE payroll]; taxes hidden in prices [ER payroll]; more taxes hidden in prices [business income tax]; hidden taxes on legal participants in the system via non-compliance [tax gap]; all prevent meaningful reductions in taxes and spending.
I applaud your efforts to reduce taxes and spending and I support you 110%. If we could only elect a republican house, senate, and president... oh... wait...
The income tax we have prevents the changes we desire. Your ignorance to that is a testament to the powerful propaganda of marxism.
I'll be waiting Mr Rhesus. (damn, spelled it wrong again.)
The fun part is, most of them wouldn't be lies if you weren't acting like disagreeing with you on a tax method is akin to being Bill Ayers.
Well the reality is that I didn't "act" in any way at all. I merely posted the list. You, OTOH, acted like the true buffoon and opened your posting by calling me a liar.
The true fun part is that I can find posts to back up each and every one of the statements. Posts made by SQL's such as you.
Don't count on me doing it though. The posters that have been debating this topic for years know that the words are true and you, well, you aren't worth the time, frankly.
BTW, if you don't want people to comment on what you have written, don't post it on an Internet forum.
I fully expect comments. And when I get really dumb comments such as "they are all lies" I respond. Although I'm beginning to wonder why.
If they're so idiotic, why did you ask to be on the ping list in the first place? And is that a real request, or just a threat?
I've been on your list for a couple of years. I want off or I will carry through with the FACT that I will nitpick your vanities to death.
You came over here and stirred this up. Just remember that.
Really? You have evidence that a Freeper wrote the first ten planks of the Communist Manifesto? You have evidence that a Freeper thinks the Commmunist Manifesto is not a Marxist document?
Don't count on me doing it though. The posters that haved been debating this topic for years know that the words are true and you, well, you aren't worth the time, frankly.
Well then, you're not worth my time. Thanks for saving me some typing.
You mistake my words - ignorance is nothing other than “unaware-ness”. I assert that you are unaware - nothing else.
That is not my intent. I wanted to know why you objected to scrapping the income tax. You told me.
Curiously, you also asserted objections you know to be false - which is a common behavior for a certain group.
As for your final comment, you are just wrong. The price difference between new and used homes will be just what it is today. The tax system won't make a change on that.
Really? You have evidence that a Freeper wrote the first ten planks of the Communist Manifesto?
I know it's a big word for you but you should try looking up "may" in the dictionary.
Well then, you're not worth my time. Thanks for saving me some typing.
I thought so. Nothing but a disruptor. Goodbye. And take me off of your damn ping list please.
The same thing it does to the automobile market.
30% on top of a modest $200,000 new house is $60,000. That’s a lot of extra money on top. I don’t think anyone knows for a fact how this will impact the market. Just some educated guesses—and with all the fervor behind this many of the guess are actually less than educated.
This doesn't even factor in the cost of compliance with a tax code of 67,000+ pages.That's a lie and you know it. The tax code isn't anywhere near 67,000. You keep lying and I'll keep calling you on it.
30% on top of a modest $200,000 new house is $60,000. That’s a lot of extra money on top. I don’t think anyone knows for a fact how this will impact the market. Just some educated guesses—and with all the fervor behind this many of the guess are actually less than educated.And then you get to pay interest on that $60,000 and then FairTax on that interest (interest is payment for a service an a portion of it would be taxable under the FairTax)!
If I pay $150000 for a house, I will recover every bit of that money when I sell, irrespective of how you categorize the components of the original buy price.
The differential between new and old will be base on the same things the differential is based on today. That a component of buy price is categorized as tax doesn't mean I'll sell the house ignoring that part of the price!
Under the nrst, I would have to earn 234k for the SAME house.
Let's see - earn 253k or earn 234k? Which is more?
What about the very significant inventory of pre-Fair Tax houses that do not have that 30% built in. All post-Fair Tax houses cost 30% more. Is that not going to screw up the housing market?
wouldn’t a $200k house cost you $260k?
The nrst is intended to tax things once and only once. Since the house built today includes taxes [ER payroll, EE payroll, income taxes, etc of the builder and his subs and the suppliers and subs of all of them], the house is taxed already. The nrst won't tax it again.
Uf a home is built under the nrst, then the cost of everything going into it [labor, nails, lumber, etc] will be less b/c tax won't be in it. So in the end, the pretax price will be less [even the most vehement anti nrst posters stipulate to a 10% reduction]. Then, add the nrst and the house is taxed.
Cost of a home will be less under the nrst though. Consider the $200k home. I have a 21% fed effective tax rate, so I'd have to earn 253k to buy the home. Note here that 200k is the PRE income tax price, 253 is the POST income tax price.
Under the nrst, the pre nrst price of making that home fall to 180k. Then add the full nrst [I'm not including effects of any rebate which would lessen the tax] and the post nrst price of the home becomes 233k. Note here that the 180k is the PRE nrst price and 233k is the POST nrst price.
Both pre and post tax prices are less under the nrst.
Things that factor into this trivial calculation are current net effecitive income tax rate and your rebate under the nrst [i didn't include any rebate calculation - I used the max possible nrst rate].
got it, the 234k is based on a 10% discount attributed to lack of embedded tax. Thanks for the “transitional inventory” tip. I’ll go search on that.
http://www.fairtax.org/site/PageServer?pagename=calculator
Go there. Play with numbers.
Consider the source and ask questions.
For my part, I’ll tell you to look at the “assumption” tab FIRST. Choose 10% for decrease in pretax price.
Enjoy.
Remember that everyone involved in the building, sale and financing of a new house will no longer be using after tax dollars for anything.
Rash would be to keep the income tax IMHO. The old system is trash. It isn't viable in a free country. Virtually anything would be an improvement, especially something as thoroughly researched as the FT:
The economic benefits of the FairTax
And you get to deduct the interest.
“Staying the course is never rash.......”
I strongly disagree with that position, popular though it may be. Maintaining the status quo with respect to our tax system ignores a number of adverse trends which are not sustainable. We have the largest trade deficit in human history and it is on track to exceed $1 trillion within the next few years. The compliance costs of the current system continue to increase. The individual savings rate, which is of grave concern to almost every serious economist, is below zero at present.
Those are just some of the trends which are unsustainable and which the current tax system contributes to. The notion that we can continue down this path and never have to pay a price is just as short sighted as the notion just a few years ago that stock prices could continue to explode P/E ratios and no correction was inevitable.
I'm not up to a semantic discussion. It was you who used the word first and I was just teeing off on it. Staying the course is a path we would only pursue "without due consideration".
Uf a home is built under the nrst, then the cost of everything going into it [labor, nails, lumber, etc] will be less b/c tax won't be in it. So in the end, the pretax price will be less [even the most vehement anti nrst posters stipulate to a 10% reduction]. Then, add the nrst and the house is taxed.
In other words, labor on construction itself, and for every product used costs less because taxes are removed.
Cost of a home will be less under the nrst though. Consider the $200k home. I have a 21% fed effective tax rate, so I'd have to earn 253k to buy the home. Note here that 200k is the PRE income tax price, 253 is the POST income tax price.
Under the nrst, the pre nrst price of making that home fall to 180k. Then add the full nrst [I'm not including effects of any rebate which would lessen the tax] and the post nrst price of the home becomes 233k. Note here that the 180k is the PRE nrst price and 233k is the POST nrst price.
What is the buyer's income once his taxes are removed?
The proposed FairTax rate and tax base make it nothing like any existing sales tax.
Whether or not you recover the full purchase price of the house, including the FairTax, depends on the market at the time of sale. Current events are instructive.
That a component of buy price is categorized as tax doesn't mean I'll sell the house ignoring that part of the price!
In other words, the FairTax would tend to increase prices.
Some of the earnings that used to go to pay income taxes go to pay the nrst. Current events are indeed instructive. Only the market controls home prices, but costs do indicate a floor.
“....how does the fair tax fix our trade deficit?”
I wouldn’t go so far as to say that it “fixes” the trade deficit, as there are undoubtedly a number of factors which contribute to it. However, our tax system is unique among these factors in that it is the only one which is 100% within our control.
Taxes become imbedded in the prices of goods as they move through the supply chain. That is true of payroll taxes, as well as income taxes and it s also true of the enormous compliance costs which are the hallmark of our overly complex system. When we ship these products with their tax burden on board, they are priced higher (both domestically and in foreign markets) than would be the case if that tax burden did not exist. VAT countries have a mechanism for crediting those taxes when they are exported. When we import goods from a VAT country, we do not levy a tax and they enjoy competitive advantage here in the US as a result. Conversely, when we ship to VAT countries, they arrive at foreign ports with our tax burden already on board and a VAT is added to them. Therefore, US produced goods have two layers of taxation in many foreign markets vs one layer for domestically produced goods or for goods brought in from other VAT countries.
The FairTax addresses this without levying a VAT by taxing all goods purchased for consumption in the same manner - regardless of origin. Unlike an import tariff, the FairTax cannot be criticized as discriminatory by our trading partners and by the WTO. IOW, the FT replaces a tax system which is biased in favor of foreign producers with one which is neutral in that regard.
With globalization being one of the biggest megatrends of the 21st century, that is a very important change. We cannot afford the luxury in this environment of a tax system which handicaps our producers in this manner.
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