Department of Veterans Affairs Prepares to Strip John McCain of Vietnam Veteran Title

Blue Water Navy Vietnam Vetarans Association ^ | 26 June 08 | Site Admin - Blue Water Navy Organization

[Right Winged American]

Department of Veterans Affairs Prepares to Strip John McCain of Vietnam Veteran Title

News Release
Date: 26 June, 2008
From: website, www.BlueWaterNavy.org 

Note: This article refers to proposed changes to the rules defining 'Service in Vietnam' set forth by the Department of Veterans Affairs in response to the 'Haas vs. Peake' decision in the Federal Circuit Court of Appeals.

---

By the implementation of changes as set forth in the Federal Register, April 16, 2008, regarding "Definition of Service in the Republic of Vietnam," for the purpose of clarifying eligibility for presumption of exposure to herbicides status, the DVA very clearly states and reiterates its stance that "38 CFR 2.307(e)(6)(iii) does not provide a presumption of herbicide exposure to a Vietnam Era veteran who never set foot on land in the Republic of Vietnam and did not service on its inland waterways." What this action accomplishes, in addition to the relationship to herbicide exposure, is a re-designation of all veterans into two clearly distinct categories: Vietnam War veterans and Vietnam Era veterans. The VA is careful to keep this distinction of Vietnam Era veterans when referring to veterans who "never set foot on land in the Republic of Vietnam."

This re-writing of history began at least 4 years ago and can be seen quite clearly in a presentation made by Dan Brown, Director of the Environmental Agents Service, in November, 2004 in the "Science for Judges" Symposium, held annually at Brooklyn Law School. In that presentation, Brown says that those veterans not covered by the Agent Orange Act of 1991 are "non-Vietnam veterans" and "non-Vietnam War veterans." These are not typographical errors on the part of the VA. They are well thought out titles developed in their new emphasis on who is covered by the Agent Orange Act and who is not. They are titles meant to separate "boots-on-the-ground veterans" (often referred to as in-country veterans) from all other Armed Forces participants in that Southeast Asian War. Read this carefully. It is the creation of a very well-defined rift, a division, within the ranks of Vietnam War veterans. It is part of a campaign to "divide and conquer" which will have immense negative impact on these veterans as well as all present and future veterans. It gives the DVA the power to segment groups of veterans for the purpose of withholding or bestowing VA benefits on selected groups from any current or future armed conflict.

All aircraft pilots who flew off aircraft carriers during the time of the Vietnam War, as stipulated by the DVA to be January 9, 1962 to May 7, 1975, are therefore Vietnam Era veterans, as they are all Blue Water Navy veterans. They are also non-Vietnam War veterans. All jet fighter pilots who may have flown in the "airspace above" the Republic of Vietnam, or above North Vietnam or any of the surrounding countries, are also exempt from herbicide coverage and therefore are titled Vietnam Era veterans. Furthermore, all US Navy pilots who were shot down over North Vietnam, who landed by parachute in North Vietnam, and were not fortunate to have landed in the Republic of Vietnam, fall under this re-written definition of Vietnam Era veterans. A pilot from an aircraft carrier who became a POW and was kept in captivity anywhere but on the soil of the Republic of Vietnam, is now officially referred to as non-Vietnam War veterans. All POWs who spent time in the prison called the Hanoi Hilton, or any other place not located in South Vietnam, receive this new title as well.

John McCain, Jim Stockdale and all others in this predicament have been re-classified by the Department of Veterans Affairs as Vietnam Era veterans. Public reference to them as Vietnam War veterans is incorrect, per the new re-written history presented by the Department of Veterans Affairs. Our Presidential Candidate should no longer refer to himself as a veteran of the Vietnam War. This title is being stripped from him by the DVA. And just imagine the embarrassment of having to remove names chiseled in the stone the Vietnam Memorial Wall.

 

---

An Analysis

The DVA issued a Notice of Proposed Rule Making (NPRM) on April 16, 2008 to change the "definition of Service in the Republic of Vietnam". The Public Response period on that NPRM ended June 18. A copy of that entire Federal Register Notice is here --> http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/2008/pdf/E8-8091.pdf . At this point in time, it is projected that this rule will be published and become DVA doctrine before the end of the month of July and probably be back dated to 6/19/2008 - unless some special intervention takes place.

In the Federal Register NPRM of April 16, (link given above) in the middle of the first paragraph of the section "Supplementary Information" you will find reference to "...a Vietnam Era veteran who never set foot on land...." The language is very specific of a pattern that has been showing itself over recent years. The DVA has been moving in this direction since it "illegally" removed Blue Water Navy veterans (Navy, Coast Guard, Marine and some Air Force veterans) from eligibility for receipt of service-connected VA Health Care as well as from receipt of any service-connected compensation for disabilities from the "presumptive eligibility" status for effects of dioxin, which is found in Agent Orange. The initial withdrawal of that presumptive eligibility status for a specific class of Vietnam veteran actually occurred in February, 2002. This was done despite the fact that several studies, including one by the CDC, indicated that water-born veterans had a higher incidence of dioxin-caused disease and disability by a factor in excess of 20%.

Both the latest VA NPRM on the "definition of service in the Republic of Vietnam" and a 2004 presentation of VA Director Dan Brown specifically indicate that, upon implementation of the Proposed Rule, the DVA will also be puting into play a nomenclature change of great significance.

According to the Brown presentation of 2004, only individuals who served with "boots on the ground" in South Vietnam would be referred to as "Vietnam War veterans." All others in the Vietnam War, between 1962 and 1975, would be referred to as Vietnam Era veterans or non-Vietnam War veterans.

Click the hyper link in the discussion of Dan Brown's paper found at http://www.bluewaternavy.org/brownpaper.htm and then find and click on the following statement, below the bulleted paragraph, which contains the name of his presentation:

"The Role of Science in Department of Veterans Affairs Disability Compensation Policies for Environmental and Occupational Illnesses and Injuries. It appears in Vol. XIII No. 2 Journal of Law & Policy (2005). "

You will be taken to a copy of Brown's paper. On Page 604 (Journal of Law and Policy) you will find his explanation for usage of this distinctive new name for two classes of veterans. This language has been carefully crafted to be in lock step with their Master Plan which has unfolded over the past six years.

It strips everyone whose feet did not touch the soil of "the Republic of Vietnam," which refers to South Vietnam, of the title of a War veteran as well as strips them of the benefits of a War veteran.

[Right Winged American]

Note: I am a Blue Water Navy Vietnam Veteran. So is John McCain.

Further, while this whole process of excluding BWN Vietnam Veterans from receiving veterans benefits began under Togo West under the second Clinton Administration, it was implemented by the VA under the current Bush Administration.

For other Vietnam Veterans related reasons, I cannot vote for McCain; but I d*mn sure cannot support stripping him of his Vietnam War Veteran status.

Now you know how we got the name "The Stupid Party."

Sigh.

For more Blue Water Navy Vietnam Veterans/Agent Orange Info, go here:

http://bluewaternavy.org

Discussions/Forum about Blue Water Navy Vets, Here:

http://bluewaternavy.org/phpBB2/index.php

FreepMail me to join the Blue Water Navy ping list.

 

 

Blue Water Navy
Vietnam Veterans
of America

[Earthdweller]

That’s a pretty wordy joke there...

[GreyFriar]

ping

[ClearCase_guy]

The VA is careful to keep this distinction of Vietnam Era veterans when referring to veterans who "never set foot on land in the Republic of Vietnam."

I thought McCain spent some time in Hanoi?

[frankiep]

What a disgrace.

Sounds about right though for the disgusting bureaucrats that make up the VA. I hate dealing with them.

[lainie]

Is this thing for real? Even people who can’t stomach McCain (and haven’t been able to for years) agree there’s one die hard fact about the guy: he’s a Vietnam Veteran. wth is this?

[frankiep]

The define the “Republic of Vietnam” as being SOUTH Vietnam, whereas McCain was a POW held in NORTH Vietnam.

I’m speechless.

[visualops]

What unmitigated crap. It was a fracking WAR whether you were on land or in the air or whatever. Vietnam ERA my ass!

[cryptical]

I thought McCain spent some time in Hanoi?

Hanoi was North Vietnam, the Republic of Vietnam was South.

[Right Winged American]

That’s a pretty wordy joke there...

No Joke. Trust me...

[Grunthor]

“Sounds about right though for the disgusting bureaucrats that make up the VA.”

Agree

“I hate dealing with them.”

Me too.

[McGruff]

McCain’s gains 20 points with conservatives in they try this smear.

[FMBass]

Geez, and all this time I thought I was Viet Nam veteran. Man was I fooled. Who knew? I guess those loud noises were just sound effects and all that steaming up and down the coast was just part of a luxury cruise.

I wonder if the those in Navy during WWII are no longer WWII veterans or those now serving off the coast of Iraq are not now not Iraq war veterans?

[usmcobra]

This is sick.

Tonk is doing about 60 rpm right about now.

[Tzimisce]

Hm...

Well if it isn’t a joke, I’m sure it’s not political....

[Enchante]

This is not merely about John McCain, this is about ALL US Navy pilots and others who fought in the war zone from ships and aircraft but who did not “set foot” in the Republic of Vietnam. Plenty of other Naval Aviators plus Air Force pilots flying from bases in Thailand, etc. flew into deadly combat without setting foot in the RVN. Sounds like this is being driven by the potential herbicide exposure issue but it’s still an idiotic distinction when it throws A-4 and so many other combat pilots into the same category as the lying Tom Harkin who served in Japan during the Vietnam Era but did not serve in combat.

[Enchante]

fwiw, my post above was not for you, who obviously know these issues far more thoroughly than I do..... I was just babbling to other FReepers and lurkers.... :^)

[AU72]

Obama says he doesn’t want his war record questioned.

[OneLoyalAmerican]

Greetings Right Winged American:

Let me get this straight, if a Vietnam Era soldier/sailor/airman handled the herbicide Agent Orange at an air facility outside of South Vietnam, the soldier/sailor/airman is now ineligible for compensation?

Say it isn’t so,
OLA

[Blood of Tyrants]

What a crock of crap. Being a POW in N Vietnam for 5 years and he doesn’t qualify as a Vietnam War Veteran? People, contact your Congressmen and Senators about this and get it fixed.

[frankiep]

Are they next going to say that McCain was not a Prisoner of War? Because since the VA now says that he is not a veteran of the Vietnam WAR. So how can they say that he was a POW when, according to their twisted logic, he is not even the veteran of the war?

God, I detest the VA.

[mnehrling]

This would be a slap in the face to every Vietnam Vet who was a pilot like McCain. Whomever is trying to push this has major McCain Derangement Syndrome.

[Cinnamon Girl]

I don’t get it. Can you explain this out? How does a veteran become not a veteran?

[FMBass]

Now I’m wondering if I have to give my combat action ribbon back.

[em2vn]

Remember this sad fact. It was “W” who launched the war against veterans with the anti-veteran appointments he made.

[Thrownatbirth]

only individuals who served with "boots on the ground" in South Vietnam

No "boots treading water slightly offshore but well within AK-47 range"? No? How about if I claimed to have touched bottom during swim call?

This could be an exercise of futility.

[Justa]

Geesh, calm down, it's a provisional definition.

...regarding "Definition of Service in the Republic of Vietnam," for the purpose of clarifying eligibility for presumption of exposure to herbicides status....

[Snickersnee]

This headline is complete cr@p. I feel bad for the Freepers, esp. the VN vets, who fall for it. The VA is doing no such thing. And if you read the whole thing, you’ll see that.

[Spok]

“Sounds like this is being driven by the potential herbicide”

It sounds like the VA is trying to distinguish the potentially exposed vets from those who weren’t, but they’re making the distinction with what looks like political motives. One of the biggest errors of the GWB presidency is his failure to de-louse the bureaucracy of the Clinton vermin.

[Cyber Liberty]

If this story is true, and McQueeg is stripped of the title, then it will be true for a lot of the residents of the Hanoi Hilton.

I smell the mother of all blow-backs if the VA tries this.

[Condor51]

*** I thought McCain spent some time in Hanoi? ***

Yep, but he and all the others are now exempt (doesn't count). Plus all Air Force pilots and crew who were out of Thailand.

Now a 'Vietnam War Veteran' is only one who was 'in country', boots on the ground in South Vietnam. (That's all in the article.) Ergo, war hero Kerry (sarc) IS a Vietnam Vet, McCain or Adm William Stockdale (tortured the most) are not. They're just Vietnam 'Era' Vets.

[montag813]

Anyone who does this should be pelted with eggs wherever they go. Their houses should be found and picketed day and night, and harrassed every moment until this decision is reversed. My God what this man suffered and what an insult to the FIVE generations of his family’s military service to America.

[Liberty Valance]

I see that. And I thought only AP headlines were misleading ...

[beezdotcom]

Are they next going to say that McCain was not a Prisoner of War?

Yes, using this logic, he would be merely a Prisoner of Era. (Which I guess is different than being a Prisoner of ERA, but not much better....)

[Cyber Liberty]

Judging from what Jay Rockefeller had to say recently about McQueeg’s murder of innocent civilians via fighter plane, watch for a claim that he was “an illegal combatant, not subject to the terms of the Geneva Convention.”

[Right Winged American]

Let me get this straight, if a Vietnam Era soldier/sailor/airman handled the herbicide Agent Orange at an air facility outside of South Vietnam, the soldier/sailor/airman is now ineligible for compensation?

Say it isn’t so,

I wish I cold. But I can't.

I've been banging this drum for two years now. (Search: Blue Water Navy on this site...)

Further: McCain gets about 50k in veterans benefits. I do not know how much, if any, is due to Agent Orange exposure due to drinking TCDD contaminated evaporator water aboard the Forestall, but if this passes, he will have to return all of it, from the date he began receiving it.

I know, some of my shipmates who received it in the '90s had to do so!

And No, I'm not kidding...

[frankiep]

From the article:

All aircraft pilots who flew off aircraft carriers during the time of the Vietnam War, as stipulated by the DVA to be January 9, 1962 to May 7, 1975, are therefore Vietnam Era veterans, as they are all Blue Water Navy veterans. They are also non-Vietnam War veterans. All jet fighter pilots who may have flown in the "airspace above" the Republic of Vietnam, or above North Vietnam or any of the surrounding countries, are also exempt from herbicide coverage and therefore are titled Vietnam Era veterans. Furthermore, all US Navy pilots who were shot down over North Vietnam, who landed by parachute in North Vietnam, and were not fortunate to have landed in the Republic of Vietnam, fall under this re-written definition of Vietnam Era veterans. A pilot from an aircraft carrier who became a POW and was kept in captivity anywhere but on the soil of the Republic of Vietnam, is now officially referred to as non-Vietnam War veterans. All POWs who spent time in the prison called the Hanoi Hilton, or any other place not located in South Vietnam, receive this new title as well. John McCain, Jim Stockdale and all others in this predicament have been re-classified by the Department of Veterans Affairs as Vietnam Era veterans. Public reference to them as Vietnam War veterans is incorrect, per the new re-written history presented by the Department of Veterans Affairs. Our Presidential Candidate should no longer refer to himself as a veteran of the Vietnam War. This title is being stripped from him by the DVA. And just imagine the embarrassment of having to remove names chiseled in the stone the Vietnam Memorial Wall.

Now what exactly are we misinterpreting?

[silver charm]

Good thing J F’ing Kerry jumped off his boat to kill that wounded Vietcong kid.......he can still be a Viet Nam vet.

(heavy sarcasm)

[Right Winged American]

Geesh, calm down, it's a provisional definition.

Exactly. So?

If this is adopted, (and there is no reason to believe it won't, it did before!) it excludes an entire group of veterans from receiving benefits from exposure to Agent Orange depending on where they were standing, not how they were exposed. (see reports relating to AO contaminants and shipboard evaporator distillers. Pay particular attention to the reports of concentration and enhancement of the Dioxins by copper during the distilling process.

Then note the facts found by the National Academy of Science's Institute of Medicine and Center for Disease Control's reports. There are MORE Dioxin related diseases found in Navy Vietnam veterans than were found in land based services.

This can of worms is gonna blow-back. I hope I survive my Leukemia long enough to see us acknowledged.

But I probably won't.

[Terry Mross]

I’ve always referred to myself as a “Viet Nam Era” Veteran because I never “served” in Viet Nam. But, in 1973 I was sitting on the tarmac in Saigon when the pilot announced the cease fire would take place at midnight that night. So, I guess that makes me a “Viet Nam” veteran. Then again, I never got off the plane so I never “set foot” in Viet Nam. I’m so confused.

[Vetvoice]

Someone on here is smoking dope. What ocean is McCain’s prison in? It is in Vietvan you twerp. The title is Vietnam veteran - not North or South Vietnam.

[pabianice]

What a laugh! The veteran’s Vietnam Service Medal and Vietnam Campaign Medal are unalterable proof and unassailable documentation of being a Vietnam veteran.

[rockinqsranch]

“Further, while this whole process of excluding BWN Vietnam Veterans from receiving veterans benefits began under Togo West under the second Clinton Administration, it was implemented by the VA under the current Bush Administration.”

This action therefore is another shining example of why it is important to eliminate previous opposition party cadre from ones new administration at the outset.

This action should be unceremoniously tossed onto the table before President G.W. Bush with demands this performance of the opposition be stopped, reversed immediately.

I haven’t a problem with telling people that “I am a Viet Nam ERA Vet”, because that is what I am. I served in South Korea 1966-1968. A man or woman that served in the Viet Nam Theater is a Viet Nam Vet period.

[fatima]

GRRRRRRR.I am so mad right now.

[pabianice]

Strange. This site is unreachable.

[VOA]

Plenty of other Naval Aviators plus Air Force pilots flying from
bases in Thailand, etc. flew into deadly combat without setting foot
in the RVN.

In-Freakin-Credible! (in the words of the eloquent Andrew Dice Clay).

I hope they aren't going to diss guys like Robin Olds and others
that flew out of Thailand.
(as seen on The History Channel's "Dogfights")

[Fundamentally Fair]

Your understanding of the issue doesn't match the inflammatory title....

[river rat]

Let me see if I have this right....

All those Blue Water Flag Officers - who came ashore to visit the whore houses of South Vietnam are therefore eligible to be Vietnam War Veterans since their feet and other body parts touched South Vietnamese “property” ——— but the Marine/Navy Carrier Pilots who overflew our positions and attacked forces opposed to us are merely “Vietnam Era Veterans”!!! Is there no depth to which the freaking imbeciles in Washington won’t stoop to?

Recent events involving Murtha, Reid, Pelosi, Kerry, Kennedy, Delahunt, Durbin and then Obama’s selection by the DNC to run for President -— makes a very convincing argument that a lot of folks in our Government are Fxxking Insane.

[Right Winged American]

I don’t get it. Can you explain this out? How does a veteran become not a veteran?

Simple. When the Department of Veterans Affairs takes a law like the Agent Orange Act of 1991, and 'interprets' the legislation as it makes the rules for implementing it.

This is new; it was begun during 2nd Clinton as part of the 'Peace Dividend', and implemented during GW's. This is indeed new. But not surprising, considering the abysmal choices for VA Secretary perpetrated by men trusted by the President.

Regrettably, GW was and is too loyal to nail them when they screwed the pooch.

Again, sigh.

[cake_crumb]

This qualifies for a HUGE “WTF?!?!” Thank God Tonk didn’t live to see this...it’d kill him.