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Obama - Not Born in the USA?
MacRanger Radio Show ^ | Jun 29, 2008 | Jack Moss

Posted on 07/01/2008 1:03:52 PM PDT by Red Steel

Fellow Blog Talk Radio compadre David Zublick over at Heading Right says, “Maybe Not“.

I noted back here that when Kos produced - not a birth certificate - but a certificate of live birth there were several discrepancies noted that pointed to the fact - aside from the convenience - that the document was most likely forged. Since Obama has failed to produce a birth certificate, in-spite of several calls to do so, is telling indeed.

I was born in 1958 in the State of Florida and I can get a birth certificate for ten bucks. I doubt Hawaii was so backward in 1961 that it cannot produce a copy that he could show.

The news orgs are NOT looking into this, but some of us can snoop where others cannot. We’ll see what we can find. Fellow Blog Talk Radio compadre David Zublick over at Heading Right says, “Maybe Not“.

I noted back here that when Kos produced - not a birth certificate - but a certificate of live birth there were several discrepancies noted that pointed to the fact - aside from the convenience - that the document was most likely forged. Since Obama has failed to produce a birth certificate, in-spite of several calls to do so, is telling indeed.

I was born in 1958 in the State of Florida and I can get a birth certificate for ten bucks. I doubt Hawaii was so backward in 1961 that it cannot produce a copy that he could show.

The news orgs are NOT looking into this, but some of us can snoop where others cannot. We’ll see what we can find.

UPDATE: Looks like some have filed the ole FOIA request to force the issue. Meanwhile Doug Ross thinks it’s legit.

One note, Certificates of Live Birth are NOT considered proof of citizenship in many states including Florida, while in other states it is.

Again, why not then just produce the damn certificate, it clears up the whole thing. Until we see that, the issue isn’t closed.


TOPICS: News/Current Events; Politics/Elections
KEYWORDS: 2008election; ajntsa; birthcertificate; certifigate; demagogues; democrats; dnc; election; letitgo; media; msm; noiwont; notarealissue; obama; obamatruthfile; obamsaloverdefend; rats; redherring; yesitis
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To: nikos1121
ny, Wikipedia now says he was born at Queens Hospital. Last week before this broke out they listed Kapliolani.

It is very unlikely that the Wikipedia entry was added or changed by the Obama campaign. If you want to look at the history, and the users who edited it, go to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Queen’s_Medical_Center

101 posted on 07/01/2008 3:19:41 PM PDT by libravoter (Live from the People's Republic of Cambridge)
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To: dan1123

The US born argument doesn’t apply to McCain. Children born to military personnel stationed overseas are waivered those born on base are automatic American citizens. All US bases are American soil. Those born in route are waivered by US Ambassadors.


102 posted on 07/01/2008 3:24:27 PM PDT by Calpernia (Hunters Rangers - Raising the Bar of Integrity http://www.barofintegrity.us)
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To: nikos1121
I'm not trying to argue.

 

1. There is nothing private about the certificate number. The Decosta BC shows the year she was born, and perhaps the number of births up to that time. What is private about that. It comes that the document is traceable. Just an observation based on the Hawaiian statute, a lawyer I'm not.. Possibly the lady left hers on, where another person might black it out if he/she were going to put it on the internet or other public presentation.

2. McCain produced everything, and I’m sure this was vetted when he ran four years ago. Why are we pulling teeth here with the Obama Camp, and why did he wait until Hillary was out of the picture? Then why did it crop up again on Free Republic and other places in the last 60-90 days. Some will never be satisfied.

3. Everything that we know about Obama is from his own auto-bio. Conspicuously lacking are eye witnesses of his early life and his family here in the USA. True. As I said earlier I was never voting for him I don't give a crap about his Bio.

4. The grandmother is sequestered. Why? Your asking the wrong people. Those you need to ask most likely will not answer, unless a court of law forces them to.

5. I would think providing proof that you qualify to run for the office of president is determined by Congress? or is the courts? Has this process taken place? It must have in Illinois, but what does the elecction board do there?

6. The KOS BC is a certificate of live birth, it is NOT the original birth certificate. Where is the original birth certificate? I would think it’s on microfiche. Only the State of Hawaii and the individual know ... evidently neither is talking.

7. I have searched using pay sites such as Ancestry.com and have found NO listing for Obama or his mother’s marriage. True, this doesn’t prove anything, but it seems odd doesn’t it? His parent may have been married overseas in a foreign country, say Indonesia. Just speculation.

8. Why is it that two hospitals are listed as his place of birth. Wikipedia lists Kapliolani Medical Center, and other sites list Queens Hospital. Information is only as good as the provider.

9. I’ve seen posts, and I think this is also on The ObamaFile website, where it is “rumored” that Kenyan family members told media early on that Obama was born there. Libya’s Kaddafi says he was born in Kenya and that Obama is lying about it. Only way to force this issue is in the courts ... which court and judge will accept jurisdiction?

10. I would think that as we speak the FBI or Homeland Security or someone has agents on this subject. As a law enforcement officer what say you? I would think a federal law enforcement agency would be involved if a statute they enforce was thought to be broken or a US Attorney is investigating. Otherwise they would not verify the the Birth Cetrificate just to verify it or detemine fraud. I don't believe we have an Grand Jury indictment or an investigation.

 

I'm not 'sticking up for him' or brushing aside you questions. Much of what you as is outside the realm of the general population answering, they just add fuel to the fire. As evidenced by the McCain 'haters' who will do anyhting to get a candidate other than him in the GOP. That said, Obama has the ability to stop all this by personnally releasing any documents requested, also the State of Hawaii could release a certified copy, as I would also think its on microfische, with Obama's permission. See how well that worked with Kerry.

Also, this all pre-supposes that he was born in Hawaii and not brought there soon after his birth. There are rumors as you stated. I don't follow him and his family regularly, I thought his Mother and Father had passed away. So I'd say that his grandmother and grandfather would know and could say as I think they are still alive and they could talk even if he said not to ... then again they may remain silent if he asks. If not, it's up to Obama and theState of Hawaii. I don't believe any federal law enforcement ageny would open an investigation nor would any US Attorney's Office. For sure, Congress will not hold hearings. A news organization may be able to force the issue under a Freedom Of Information suit, federally or under Hawaiian statute and force it's issuance. Again a lawyer needs to weigh in.

 This may be an issue that will forever hang fire and not be resolved.

103 posted on 07/01/2008 3:25:29 PM PDT by K-oneTexas (I'm not a judge and there ain't enough of me to be a jury. (Zell Miller, A National Party No More))
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To: All

Sorry, I added my comments in read for #1 thru #10 but it didn’t come through.


104 posted on 07/01/2008 3:26:59 PM PDT by K-oneTexas (I'm not a judge and there ain't enough of me to be a jury. (Zell Miller, A National Party No More))
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To: Calpernia
The US born argument doesn’t apply to McCain. Children born to military personnel stationed overseas are waivered those born on base are automatic American citizens. All US bases are American soil. Those born in route are waivered by US Ambassadors.

McCain wasn't born on the base. It had no hospital. He was born off-base in a Panamanian hospital.

105 posted on 07/01/2008 3:30:47 PM PDT by libravoter (Live from the People's Republic of Cambridge)
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To: ltc8k6
Is a xeroxed $100 bill also perfectly acceptable to you? I promise that somewhere I have the real one and will may someday pony it up. Maybe. I mean the real one is a family heirloom. It's really private.

That's the equivalent of the certificates so far presented.

106 posted on 07/01/2008 3:32:30 PM PDT by bvw
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To: dan1123

People have brought the argument against McCain, as I understand it is being pursued in the courts.


107 posted on 07/01/2008 3:33:31 PM PDT by bvw
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To: smoothsailing
Yes, I have seen that quoted before as the law of the land in 1961. Now it may well conflict with many assumptions about what a "natural born" citizen is, but it appears that according to the law prevailing in 1961 that even if Obama WAS born in Hawaii or any other US state, he was not a US citizen at birth because his father was not a citizen and with only one parent (his mother) as citizen she needed to have resided in the USA for "minimum ten years, five of which must be after the age of 16"..... it may be a very strange way for the law to have been written, to say that an natural born US citizen who is under the age of 21 may not give birth to a natural born US citizen if the father is not a US citizen, but isn't that what the text of this law implies???? Are there any FReeper lawyers who care to give their analysis of the law prevailing in 1961 on the citizenship status of a baby born to a US citizen mother and a foreign citizen father??

"US Law very clearly states: ‘. . . If only one parent is a U.S. Citizen at the time of one’s birth, that parent must have resided in the United States for minimum ten years, five of which must be after the age of 16.’ Barack Obama’s father was not a U.S. Citizen is a fact.

Obama’s mother was only 18 when Obama was born. This means even though she had been a U.S. Citizen for 10 years, (or citizen of Hawaii being a territory), his mother fails the test for at-least-5-years- prior-to Barack Obama’s birth, but-after-age-16."

108 posted on 07/01/2008 3:44:32 PM PDT by Enchante (OBAMA: "That's not the Wesley Clark I knew!")
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To: PhatHead
I'm still wondering why some seem to think he may have been born in Kenya, though.

Don't jackals come from Africa? Also, some have heard that mom was delayed in flying out of Kenya, trying to rush back to the U.S.A. to give birth; birth happened in Kenya and they arrived in Hawaii and lied about birth origins.

109 posted on 07/01/2008 3:50:30 PM PDT by roadcat
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To: Enchante
US Law very clearly states: ‘. . . If only one parent is a U.S. Citizen at the time of one’s birth, that parent must have resided in the United States for minimum ten years, five of which must be after the age of 16.’ Barack Obama’s father was not a U.S. Citizen is a fact.

That statute only applies to births outside the U.S. If Obama was born in Hawaii, his parents' citizenship is irrelevant; under another clause of that statute-- and the 14th Amendment-- anyone born in the U.S. is automatically a citizen.

110 posted on 07/01/2008 3:51:10 PM PDT by Lurking Libertarian (Non sub homine, sed sub Deo et lege)
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To: All

Hey, all, for a moment leaving aside the issue of the birth certificate itself, please consider what Smoothsailing has quoted (see #108 above) — EVEN IF Barack Obama were to produce a perfectly valid birth certificate that didn’t raise any other problems, how is he construed as a “natural born” citizen under the US law that prevailed in 1961 if it is indeed what Smoothsailing and others have quoted??

I don’t know how the legal and constitutional issues are settled on this, but the text of the law quoted in #108 and above seems to be unequivocal that “Stanley Dunham” (Barack’s mother) at the tender age of 18 could not give birth to a “natural born” US citizen with the father as a foreign national????

If that is the correct understanding of the law prevailing at that time, how has this not already become an huge issue?

If that is not what the law said in 1961, has someone explained this issue adequately?

I am not a lawyer, obviously, just a mystified citizen.

Is Barack Obama a natural born US citizen or not???

[fwiw, I think that would be a strange outcome, at variance with most citizens’ expectations and assumptions, but the law is not about what we expect or assume - there should be a FACT of the matter about whether or not Barack Obama was/is a natural born US citizen - it seems that the law of that time did not allow a US citizen mother UNDER THE AGE OF 21 to give birth to a natural born citizen baby if conceived with a foreign national father?? Considering that most all/rights and privileges of adulthood in those days did not start until age 21 this may have been quite intentional with those who drafted and passed this law?]


111 posted on 07/01/2008 3:57:06 PM PDT by Enchante (OBAMA: "That's not the Wesley Clark I knew!")
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To: libravoter

Those born in route are waivered by US Ambassadors.


112 posted on 07/01/2008 3:59:12 PM PDT by Calpernia (Hunters Rangers - Raising the Bar of Integrity http://www.barofintegrity.us)
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To: Lurking Libertarian
"That statute only applies to births outside the U.S. If Obama was born in Hawaii, his parents' citizenship is irrelevant; under another clause of that statute-- and the 14th Amendment-- anyone born in the U.S. is automatically a citizen."

OK, thank you, then it seems that the key issue does get back to whether there really is any question about whether Obama was born in Hawaii (or in any other US state) and that producing a valid, verified birth certificate really is what it's all about. But if somehow it were the case that Obama were born outside of the USA then in fact under that statute he would NOT be a natural born US citizen.
113 posted on 07/01/2008 4:00:24 PM PDT by Enchante (OBAMA: "That's not the Wesley Clark I knew!")
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To: bvw; dan1123

>>>as I understand it is being pursued in the courts.

I have the New Hampshire case posted here if anyone wants to download it. It is actually an interesting read.

http://blog.barofintegrity.us/2008/06/29/john-mccains-citizenship-status—court-documents.aspx


114 posted on 07/01/2008 4:01:35 PM PDT by Calpernia (Hunters Rangers - Raising the Bar of Integrity http://www.barofintegrity.us)
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To: Enchante

You could write an email to the US Attorney General and ask him to investigate. Copy your US Senators, your US Representative and your own State’s Department of State and Governor’s Office. It’s a legitimate question, as is the question about John McCain. The grounded truth found after an honest investigation may not be pretty, but one should not fight the truth. In any case as citizens we have a duty to ask and to be vigilant as to the process, to make sure it is full, and that it is what is due and correct. We should not expect a wave of a wisp of some “looks good enough” — but we will get what we will allow.


115 posted on 07/01/2008 4:07:59 PM PDT by bvw
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To: Calpernia
Thank you. I have heard that their also is a case in the US Court Western District of PA. There probably are others. These are challenges to McCain.

Where the heck, in any sense of fairness, are the cases challenging Obama? That posted "Cert of Birth" is a red flag, if only that it is such a poor presentation of an "official" certification. It begs the issue to be questioned, as does Obama's own tale of his childhood. He wasn't born in Detroit and lived there all his life, after all. His own mother ...

It's like the opposite of Elian Gonzales, refugee, in a way. Well, a twist. In both cases, Obama and Elian -- we see the wild effect that an absence of a Dad can cause.

Dads arise!

116 posted on 07/01/2008 4:16:30 PM PDT by bvw
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To: Red Steel

Almost bigger than the birth certificate is whether he registers for the draft. If he did not, he is disqualified to be POTUS. Period. See: http://noquarterusa.net/blog/2008/07/01/selective-service-required-did-obama-register/


117 posted on 07/01/2008 4:21:00 PM PDT by Proud2BeRight
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To: Enchante
...but it appears that according to the law prevailing in 1961 that even if Obama WAS born in Hawaii or any other US state, he was not a US citizen at birth...

That is not correct. The subsection of the law to which you refer was (and is) applicable only to persons born outside of the United States, and it has since been amended to change the "physical presence" requirement, and to make it applicable to births from December 24, 1952 forward.

In other words, under the law as it was in 1961, BHO would be a natural born citizen if born in Hawaii. Under current law (which appears applicable to him) he is a natural born citizen regardless where he was born.

118 posted on 07/01/2008 4:22:43 PM PDT by PhatHead
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To: Enchante
None of this may matter, I just want the law governing eligibility to matter. If Obama is eligible, that's fine by me. We will just have to clean his clock on election day. No way in my mind should he be the next CIC.
119 posted on 07/01/2008 4:25:53 PM PDT by smoothsailing
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To: Proud2BeRight

Disallowed from a Federal job, but not an elected office I would think. Statute can’t override the Constitution.


120 posted on 07/01/2008 4:25:58 PM PDT by bvw
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To: PhatHead
"Under current law (which appears applicable to him) he is a natural born citizen regardless where he was born."

OK, thanks - then there does not appear to be any issue here. Obama is a natural born citizen. Too bad, it would have been fun to watch the Demagogue meltdown, but I have been wondering how a Harvard-trained lawyer would not be on top of this stuff. There does not seem to be any issue left except whether his real BC might have something embarrassing that he does not want to public to know.
121 posted on 07/01/2008 4:30:05 PM PDT by Enchante (OBAMA: "That's not the Wesley Clark I knew!")
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To: Enchante; PhatHead

Actually, current law reads the same except the age was dropped from 16 to 14. The immigration laws have been linked directly to FR on many of these previous threads.


122 posted on 07/01/2008 4:34:01 PM PDT by Calpernia (Hunters Rangers - Raising the Bar of Integrity http://www.barofintegrity.us)
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To: Enchante

Quite a number of schools take students for the grant funding. A number of these programs are under investigation because the students will pass and not even attend class just so the monies are collected. It would be real interesting to find out of Harvard had been a recipient of any type of repackaged/laundered funds from the Revival of Islamic Heritage Society.


123 posted on 07/01/2008 4:39:10 PM PDT by Calpernia (Hunters Rangers - Raising the Bar of Integrity http://www.barofintegrity.us)
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To: Aria
"There's no doubt his mother was a citizen, so does it even matter where he was born?"

Yes it does matter. There were/are laws governing this. It depends on which year you were born.

Obama was born in 1961 and the below was the law covering that year.

4. December 24, 1952 to November 13, 1986
If, at the time of your birth, both your parents were U.S. citizens and at least one had a prior residence in the United States, you automatically acquired U.S. citizenship with no conditions for retaining it.

If only one parent was a U.S. citizen at the time of your birth, that parent must have resided in the United States for at least ten years, at least five of which had to be after the age of 16. There are no conditions placed on retaining this type of citizenship. If your one U.S. citizen parent is your father and you were born outside of marriage, the same rules apply if your father legally legitimated you before your 21st birthday and you were unmarried at the time. If legitimation occurred after November 14, 1986, your father must have established paternity prior to your 18th birthday, either by acknowledgment or by court order, and must have stated in writing that he would support you financially until your 18th birthday.

If by chance Barack Obama's mother gave birth to him in Kenya she did not meet the 5 year residency in the U.S. after the age of 16 because she was 18 when she gave birth.

For reading the other years click on the below link.
Citizenship laws

124 posted on 07/01/2008 4:41:32 PM PDT by Spunky (You are free to make choices, but not free from the consequences)
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Re: to posts 121 and 123

Revival of Islamic Heritage Society (Al Qaeda Flagged)

I’m shocked. Harvard has a grant funded program!

The Harvard Islamic Society!


125 posted on 07/01/2008 4:45:21 PM PDT by Calpernia (Hunters Rangers - Raising the Bar of Integrity http://www.barofintegrity.us)
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To: Slapshot68
"I’m aware of that. But do they have to prove they were naturalized before running?"

Being a citizen as a result of a naturalization proceeding per se eliminates the prospect that you are eligible to serve as President under Article II, Sec. 1, Par. 4, because one of the elements of a naturalization proceeding is that you are not a natural born citizen.

126 posted on 07/01/2008 4:46:05 PM PDT by David (...)
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To: K-oneTexas

You know that I’ve been talking about this for going on three weeks now. I sent my findings to Geraghty, Michelle Malkin, Hannity, Daily Kos, Obama and HIllary sites. Geraghty was the only one answering and he thinks we’re wasting our time.

I think the issue is integrity. I went to Dixon Illinois last Summer. Reagan is everywhere. Where he went to school, worked as a life guard, his house etc etc.

I live in Illinois, and LIncoln is everywhere.

I want to know where my president came from and walk in his or her shoes...

Obama? Who is this guy? Where did he come from?

My guess, he doesn’t even know.

My gut tells me he wasn’t even born here. Either way, we have a right to know.

nick


127 posted on 07/01/2008 4:46:54 PM PDT by nikos1121 (The first black president of the US should be a Jackie Robinson, not a Jackie come lately.)
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To: PhatHead

It now appears that (gasp) my information may have been incorrect on requirements for natural born citizen status. The reason some think he may have been born in Kenya is that some in Kenya apparently have said as much in the past but don’t want to talk about it now.
I personally suspect that almost everything about him is fake in view of the fact that he is trying to pass himself off as a Christian on the basis of his past attendance at a church which is Christian in name only. If Trinity United is a Christian church then most churches in the Bible belt must not be Christian because they don’t resemble Trinity in any meaningful way. Real Christians are not full of hate. I grew up in South Carolina at a time when racism was openly acknowledged by most whites but I never heard a preacher in any church rant against black people the way Wright ranted against white people at Trinity, not even back in the fifties did I ever hear anything like that from a minister of the Gospel. I never heard it from my white school teachers either.


128 posted on 07/01/2008 4:48:29 PM PDT by RipSawyer (Does anyone still believe this is a free country?)
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To: Calpernia; Enchante
Actually, current law reads the same except the age was dropped from 16 to 14. The immigration laws have been linked directly to FR on many of these previous threads.

Please see my post #95. When USC § 1401 was amended in 1986, the age was changed from 16 to 14, the physical presence requirement was changed from "ten years, five after" to "five years, two after" that age, and the law was made to apply to those born after December 24, 1952. My previous post links to the actual statutes.

I'd be glad to learn if I have read that statute wrong, but in any case, I still have yet to read any compelling reason to suspect that Obama was not born in Hawaii, and that subsection applies only to persons born outside of the United States.

129 posted on 07/01/2008 4:50:21 PM PDT by PhatHead
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To: Crystal Cove

I thought the term was “natural” born citizen, which would be different than “native” born citizen.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I probably used the wrong term, I should have said natural born citizen. It would only affect Schwartzenegger if Obama is ruled a naturalized citizen and still allowed to run. It appears that I may well have had the wrong information on requirements for being considered a natural born citizen.

I think we can be fairly certain of one thing though, Obama is a “natural born” Marxist.


130 posted on 07/01/2008 4:53:34 PM PDT by RipSawyer (Does anyone still believe this is a free country?)
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To: Non-Sequitur
Another simple way to quell all this crap is to provide any evidence at all that Obama was born outside of the U.S.

Well, there is a Wayne Madsen report Saturday that his original birth records recording his birth in Kenya have been located and copies are in the hands of interested parties in DC.

There are now a couple of news reports, one in an Israel newspaper; one in an Israel newsmagazine; reporting that his grandmother and two of his siblings have stated in news interviews that they were present at his birth in Kenya.

Against that backdrop, there are no records of his birth in Hawaii--the local newspapers reported Vital Statistics in August of 1961; he doesn't appear under either the name he now uses nor any of the historical variables (Barry Dunham, etc.); nor does his mother appear in Vital Statistics reports.

The birth certificate is not a birth certificate. And they don't produce one because they can't get one for the reason that he was not born in Hawaii.

He simply isn't eligible to act as President under Article II, Sec. 1, Par. 4. If they proceed to allow him to be nominated and stand for election; if he gets elected and installed; his acts won't be legal; legal challenge will be available every time he acts. I tend to doubt that the establishment is likely to let this get that far.

131 posted on 07/01/2008 4:54:33 PM PDT by David (...)
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To: Aria

Please disregard my former statement, it may have been based on incorrect information. I will now go and hang my head for awhile.


132 posted on 07/01/2008 4:54:48 PM PDT by RipSawyer (Does anyone still believe this is a free country?)
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To: RipSawyer
I personally suspect that almost everything about him is fake...

I'm with you on that.

133 posted on 07/01/2008 4:55:51 PM PDT by PhatHead
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To: RipSawyer

Been there....done that..... :-)


134 posted on 07/01/2008 4:57:02 PM PDT by Aria (Obama: Potluck for President! "I serve as a blank screen on which people..project their own views")
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To: JohnnyP
Good luck finding forty eight year old documents in a third world country.

Actually turned out to be less of a problem than anyone expected. See he was born in a place in Kenya governed by British colonial authorities who kept good records.

135 posted on 07/01/2008 4:59:15 PM PDT by David (...)
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To: David

That would be very interesting, if true. My reading (Post #95) of the relevant statute (if correct) would seem to indicate that he is a natural born citizen even if he was born in Kenya. I’d be interested to know if any lawyers on FR read that statute differently.


136 posted on 07/01/2008 4:59:48 PM PDT by PhatHead
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To: PhatHead

I saw your post. The links we had, which doesn’t cite the 5 after change you mention was not on the immigration site that we were referencing. That site was a gov site showing current law being followed.

>>I still have yet to read any compelling reason to suspect that Obama was not born in Hawaii

Did you try asking Obama that question directly?


137 posted on 07/01/2008 5:00:08 PM PDT by Calpernia (Hunters Rangers - Raising the Bar of Integrity http://www.barofintegrity.us)
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To: RipSawyer

They have done more than ‘said’. They published all through out their news wire, “Kenyan born Obama” this, “Kenyan born Obama” that. Then, they were told to shut up.

So, feet on the ground were sent to Kenya. And a birth certificate was found. (of course, that is just rumor...until they present it).


138 posted on 07/01/2008 5:03:55 PM PDT by Calpernia (Hunters Rangers - Raising the Bar of Integrity http://www.barofintegrity.us)
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To: Calpernia; PhatHead

Legal questions aside, IF Obama turned out to be verifiably born in Kenya, then the “cover up” questions would also kick in, even if he does turn out to be a “natural born” US citizen due to his mother.

What did he know and when did he know it? Surely a Haaahvahd lawyer might have been able to find out the true circumstances of his birth. Did he already know or not know, care or not care? If it’s just some big family secret that was withheld from him then enough of the public might overlook it, but if he knew and deceived America then that might well be (surely ought to be) a major electoral problem, even if the Demagogue Party tries to rally around him.

So, we really need to know the facts of his birth, even if they might not affect the “natural born” citizenship issue.


139 posted on 07/01/2008 5:07:36 PM PDT by Enchante (OBAMA: "That's not the Wesley Clark I knew!")
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To: Calpernia
I saw your post. The links we had, which doesn’t cite the 5 after change you mention was not on the immigration site that we were referencing. That site was a gov site showing current law being followed.

I understand that. The current law also says that it applies to persons born December 24, 1952 and later just as if it had been in effect at the time of their birth.

Did you try asking Obama that question directly?

Well, if my understanding of the statute is correct, it really makes no difference where he was born. I'll keep following the threads here, but I just don't see anything compelling right now to suggest that Obama is not a natural born citizen.

140 posted on 07/01/2008 5:09:33 PM PDT by PhatHead
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To: Enchante; Calpernia
Well, "legal questions aside," the story is still interesting, but it drops to the level of "I was named after Sir Edmund Hilary," don't you think? Lies told for no apparent reason? It says something about character, but, by itself, is mostly just weird.

I have plenty of far more serious concerns about people and events in Obama's history.

141 posted on 07/01/2008 5:14:05 PM PDT by PhatHead
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To: PhatHead

Are you talking about being a citizen, or natural born citizen? That is the difference according to the Constitution.


142 posted on 07/01/2008 5:17:20 PM PDT by FMBass ("Now that I'm sober I watch a lot of news"- Garofalo from Coulter's "Treason")
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To: PhatHead

Then it becomes the deception that matters most, and I do think that is a big issue. Yes, I have plenty of other weightier reasons that I think Obama should not be President, but if someone lies about their birth all the way to this point in a Presidential campaign then that is very disturbing.

Or perhaps it will be found that Obama never explicitly lied about his “birth” and merely said he grew up in Hawaii, then Indonesia, then Hawaii?

I don’t know whether or not he is “on the record” about his place of birth, but it sure would be very very strange to have someone within (possibly) months of being elected President and the public knows so little about him.


143 posted on 07/01/2008 5:20:09 PM PDT by Enchante (OBAMA: "That's not the Wesley Clark I knew!")
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To: nikos1121
I would like to see the birth certificate not a certificate of live birth. IN ADDITION, I would like to see proof from the hospital that Obama was born there.

The fact too, that one can discern a faint seal is meaningless. Could the document been originally someelse’s that was doctored? Why is the serial number blacked out?

Well we haven't talked about the birth certificate itself for a while.

A birth certificate is a certificate by the authorities who have custody of the official records of what those records show. So a "certificate of live birth" would be fine--that is what a birth certificate is.

The official records will in fact show a bunch of stuff that is not usually on the certificate and it would be nice to get a look at what those records show but the threshold issue is just a certificate.

My photoshop guys tell me that there is no seal on the certificate period--so I don't believe the fairy tale about bleed through.

There is evidence, you should review the several daily threads on this issue, of where the birth certificate the campaign is using came from. It was in fact created with Photoshop from someone else's Birth Certificate.

It is posted in a photobucket of screen name Opendna whose real name is probably Jay McKinnon with a reference name of I. B. Aphorgerie. And photoedit demonstrates that this form was used to produce the document published as obama's BC.

The serial number was a problem for them. They didn't know and couldn't find out enough about the numbering system to get a number that would have been credible. If they had been able to guess, that would have been a problem because a guess that was wrong wouldn't fit the date and time they chose (August 21, 7:42 PM); a guess that was correct would have been a problem because it would be the true number of a certificate of someone else's birth. So they were stuck.

They won't produce a certificate because they can't. Reason they can't is because he was born in Kenya and not in Hawaii.

144 posted on 07/01/2008 5:20:51 PM PDT by David (...)
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To: FMBass

Natural born. See my post #95.


145 posted on 07/01/2008 5:21:06 PM PDT by PhatHead
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To: Ratblaster

Don’t have an opinion if he was born out of wedlock. But if he’s LYING about it, that’s a problem. If his parents weren’t married, he just needs to be upfront about it. But if he’s been lying all this time about his past, how can we trust anything that comes out of his mouth?


146 posted on 07/01/2008 5:21:34 PM PDT by hollister23
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To: Non-Sequitur
A federal judge in California has been asked to determine whether McCain meets the legal test to hold the nation’s highest office. Although McCain has called questions about his eligibility nonsense, his campaign, as it did in his first White House run in 2000, sought a review from legal experts to put the issue to rest.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23841816/

Wouldn't military records have details on where's McCain's family lived when he was born?

How about the legality of Hussein's run? Are any of his former neigher’s still alive to give anecdotal details on his infant-toddler years? Obviously McCain and his team understood the importance regarding the legality of his run for the Presidency.

Hussein and his team on the other hand defend his ability to run for President via fightthesmears.com. lol

147 posted on 07/01/2008 5:21:37 PM PDT by hollister23
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To: Non-Sequitur
'a person born outside the geographical limits of the United States and its outlying possessions of parents one of whom is an alien, and the other a citizen of the United States who, prior to the birth of such person, was physically present in the United States or its outlying possessions for a period or periods totaling not less than five years, at least two of which were after attaining the age of fourteen years...'

OK. So Obama's mother was 18 when he was born and had lived in the U.S. for more than 5 years prior to his birth, at least two of which were after she turned 14. In other words Obama could have been born on Mars and he still would be a natural born citizen.

There have been times I have been tempted to wonder if you are a troll although you have been around for a while. This specific issue has been addressed several times the last few days while you have been around and you should be presumed to have read the material.

Your description above is clearly wrong. Here again is the actual legal:

("If Obama was born in Kenya or Canada, with a US citizen as a mother, then under section G and possibly E, he’d be a citizen, as long as Stanley had been in the USA for at least a year. So even if his BC showed he was born on Ganymede or the Mars Colony, he’d be considered a “natural born citizen”.")

No sir, I don't think so.

Sec. 1401(e) is applicable only to "a person born in an outlying possession of the United States". Kenya is not an outlying possession of the United States and (e) is therefore not applicable.

Sec. 1401(g) is the applicable statute. In 1961 when Obama was born, the five and two year rules and the 14 year age rule were ten, five and 21 respectively. Sec. 1401(g) was modified by Pub. L. 99-653 which was effective with respect "to persons born on or after November 14, 1986." So the modification doesn't apply to Obama.

The flush language at the end of (g) ("[t]his proviso shall be applicable to persons born on or after December 24, 1952, to the same extent as if it had become effective in its present form on that date") is applicable only to that part of (g) beginning "Provided, That any periods of honorable service in the Armed Forces of the United States. . . . " which has no application to the present situation.

Thus if he was born in Kenya, absent a naturalization proceeding, he isn't a citizen at all.

I want to point out again, that the citizenship statute is not determinative of the question of whether he is a "natural born" citizen for purposes of determining whether or not he is eligible to serve as President under Article II, Sec. 1, Par. 4. That's a separate question determined by reference to Constitutional law and not Congressional legislation.

But under the statute, he flunks the citizenship test also.

148 posted on 07/01/2008 5:31:14 PM PDT by David (...)
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To: Slapshot68
I don’t think it matters...if you read it closely, the entire law is premised on those born outside of US territories and possessions. Hawaii was a possession. “a person born outside the geographical limits of the United States and its outlying possessions” According to that, he’s a citizen...period. Now we come back around to the birth certificate fiasco.

No. If he was born in Kenya, he is clearly not a citizen absent a naturalization proceeding. See the law above.

149 posted on 07/01/2008 5:34:23 PM PDT by David (...)
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To: Kozak
Look, NONE of this matters. The guy WILL be the nominee of the Democratic party. If you produced a ton of documents, the OB doctor, and a video of Obama being delivered in Mecca, he would still be the nominee. The amount of energy being wasted on this is amazing.

This keeps coming up also. And maybe you are correct but I think that less than likely.

He gets elected and installed. Then, his every official act gets challenged in court by someone who doesn't like the provisions. I tend to doubt the establishment is likely to let it get that far.

And in fact, there are individuals with a much greater investment in the issue than you and I have who are looking at it tonight. So likely we will ultimately hear about it.

150 posted on 07/01/2008 5:38:04 PM PDT by David (...)
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