Skip to comments.Obama - Not Born in the USA?
Posted on 07/01/2008 1:03:52 PM PDT by Red Steel
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I think you are right about the “proviso applicable” etc. at the end of subsection (g.) Which brings us back to whether there is any compelling reason to believe he was not born in Hawaii. So far, I haven’t seen it, but will follow the threads to see if anything comes up...
Well I looked at Obama's entry in Wikipedia and that says Kapiolani Medical Center. I looked at the hospital's website and it appears that it was named after Queen Kapi'olani so Queens and Kapiolani might well be one and the same.
And what are they waiting for? I'm sure we'd all like to see them.
He simply isn't eligible to act as President under Article II, Sec. 1, Par. 4.
Yes he is. Even if he happened to be born in Kenya, his mother was a U.S. citizen and he is a natural born U.S. citizen through her.
Unless there is an attorney on this thread who can correct my reading of 8 USC § 1401, I believe that he would be a natural born citizen even if he were born in Kenya.
I'm still wondering why some seem to think he may have been born in Kenya, though.
Well Phat I am an attorney and I am admitted to practice before the Supreme Court of the United States. And your reading of 8 USC Sec. 1401 is dead wrong. The law is set forth in #148 above in this thread and I encourage you to read it.
Summary of the evidence that he was born in Kenya is set out here in a number of posts. The ultimate point is that there is a fair amount of evidence in support of the proposition that he was born in Kenya; the only evidence he was born in Hawaii is a forged birth certificate. So to me, the line of inquiry seems pretty clear.
Really? Kapiolani Medical Center opened in 1989. The Kapiolani woman and children center in 1890s.
Google lists them as two different hospitals...
That's yesterday's news. McCain is a natural born U.S. citizen for the same reason Obama would be had he been overseas - McCain's parents were citizens. The whole circus of McCain's constitutional qualifications is a non-issue.
That is one of the biggest reasons the alleged birth certificate is suspect—where, pray tell, is there verification of the seal and signature on the back of the KOS scan?
Yes, thanks, I read your other post. As far as the birth in Kenya, all I have seen is references to various rumors. I’ll be very interested to see if they turn into something more. If there is anything to it, it sure makes the legal challenges to McCain’s eligibility look like a set-up, no? With Obama’s enthusiastic support of the legislation backing McCain?
As to McCain's legal capacity to act as president under Article II, Sec. 1, Par. 4 of the U S Constitution, that is not correct.
First place, according to a post above, McCain was born in a Panamanian hospital 460 yards from the base. That's probably correct since in 1936 when McCain was born, there was no hospital on the base. So he wasn't born in the US even under the Congressional fiction that bases are US territory.
Further, even if he had been born on the base, in my opinion, the Supreme Court would still hold he was not eligible to hold the office of President because the Constitutional test cannot be resolved by Congressional citizenship legislation.
McCain is clearly a citizen. But I think he flunks the Constitutional eligibility test to be president.
I apparently snuck in before the paranoia requirement was put in place.
Sec. 1401(g) is the applicable statute. In 1961 when Obama was born, the five and two year rules and the 14 year age rule were ten, five and 21 respectively. Sec. 1401(g) was modified by Pub. L. 99-653 which was effective with respect "to persons born on or after November 14, 1986." So the modification doesn't apply to Obama.
I can't seem to find when that clause was put into place. From what I've been able to find, the last revision to the Immigration and Naturalization Law prior to Obama's birth was the McCarran-Walter Act of 1952. That act does not contain the clause you quote. Section 301 (g) reads, " a person born outside the geographical limits of the United States and its outlying possessions of parents one of whom is an alien, and the other a citizen of the United States who, prior to the birth of such person, was physically present in the United States or its outlying possessions for a period or periods totaling not less than five years, at least two of which were after attaining the age of fourteen years..." By that, Obama is a natural born citizen. Link . There is a second link at the bottom of the page that leads to the actual legislation.
Being born in Hawaii is not enough to make him a natural born citizen by then extant US statute if only one parent is a US citizen. Naturalized maybe. Natural Born, no.
But I think it all starts by learning where the man was born, and NOT to take his autobio at its word....
I agree. Since it is one of only TWO constitutional requirements, than it is incumbent upon HIM to furnish irrefutable proof. I would drop it if he does. One would think that if he is legit, than he would be eager to make this dust up go away. Were he to take the oath of office, and have it be discovered that he is not a natural born citizen, and he would refuse to resign, then we might have a civil war on our hands.
I’m watching Hannity...and that imbecile Colms.. I used to think Colms was intelligent, now he’s simply talking like he’s ot of it..
Anyway, they shoot to Harry Reid and talking about coal, and there’s Dick “I support the troops not the war” Durbin earing an over coat.... I mean what is that all about?
This is true. But in Kenya, he would be his father’s son - not only Kenyan but Muslim.
Rat talking point style. Hmmm.
i.e. Anchor babies. This is a matter in dispute yet to be settled, I predict not in my lifetime, maybe never.
Sorry, I was about to write you a nasty note.
Look, the legal is clearly set out in #148 which is below here but above where I wrote you to tell you where it is located.
This is a simple statutory proposition. Other lawyers won't read it differently--it is just a simple read the statute issue.
Well, if my understanding of the statute is correct, it really makes no difference where he was born. I'll keep following the threads here, but I just don't see anything compelling right now to suggest that Obama is not a natural born citizen.
Just so everybody else gets it the provision that says that the law applies to persons born December 24, 1952 and later is applicable only to "this proviso" which is the provision relating to persons serving in the military. As to the general provisions of (g), the effective date is set out below and it doesn't apply to Obama.
Read the legal in #148.
So the effect of the statute is that he is not a citizen under applicable law.
A secondary point is that even if he were a citizen under applicable law, that would not control operation of Article II, Sec. 1, Par. 4 of the Constitution as to which the Court would apply general principles of Constitutional construction which end up with a geographical US test--Obama flunks that test also.
Wouldn't military records have details on where's McCain's family lived when he was born?
Obviously McCain and his team understood the importance regarding the legality of his run for the Presidency.
Not so to most of that. The McCain people never thought this was a threat. And to be fair, it was probably not a threat until it became an Obama problem. Now, it is a threat because there will be a real successful attack on Obama's eligibility to serve as president and McCain will suffer collateral damage.
The opinion McCain's people got was political. It is neither real nor correct. McCain has a problem because he was not a "natural born" citizen under Article II, Sec. 1, Par. 4 of the Constitution.
Whatever the merit of the legal fiction that the Panama base was US territory, he wasn't born there anyway; he was born in a hospital off base that was not part of the U S Lease.
That's not the import of the California litigation--it is part of a much more significant event.
Suits have been started in every state where McCain won the primary seeking to decertify his delegation on the theory that McCain is not eligible to election as President. Anyone who doesn't immediately grasp why that has been done and by whom has never been on the credentials committee of a national convention.
It's really good that you think I am right--it might occur to you that there is law about how this stuff gets interpreted; about which there really isn't room to argue.
If you haven't seen any compelling reason to believe he was not born in Hawaii, you haven't read the material.
His grandmother and two half siblings say they were there in Kenya when he was born. Wayne Madsen reported the end of last week that birth documents from official records in Kenya have been found and are in DC now. The Birth Certificate in Hawaii is a fraud--why do you suppose that is?
What about the US Ambassador powers?
(personally, I’m all for starting over with new candidates. My issue with McCain has always been the POW/MIAs left behind, not his citizenship status)
Might try looking at the effective date clause at the end of Sec. 1401 which tells you when the amendments were effective by reference to the public law by which they were adopted.
The amendment reducing the ten and five year requirements to five and two were adopted by Public Law 99-653 which was effective with respect "to persons born on or after November 14, 1986." So the modification doesn't apply to Obama.
To look for the ten and five year statute, you need to look for 8 USCA Sec. 1401(7) (the subparagraphs were renumbered so that 7 became g). I believe the period in which Obama was born was subject to an interim statute in which the 10-5 year rules were applicable with respect to age 21--I don't have a copy of the old statute and it is not available on line. But it doesn't make any difference because even if the rule were age 14, Ann (his mother) still didn't make it because to have five years after 14, she would have needed to be at least 19 and she was only 18 when he was born.
Thus you know that if he was born outside the US, he isn't a citizen under Sec. 1401(g), absent a naturalization proceeding. (And a naturalization proceeding would prove he flunks the Article II, Sec. 1, Par. 4 test of eligibility to serve as President.)
I apologize for being abrupt with you. As to the statutory issue, there isn't room for argument; all you need to do is read the statutory material carefully which you are obviously capable of doing.
The bottom line is that if he was born in Kenya which I believe he clearly was, he just isn't a citizen under the statute--period. Further, the Supreme Court isn't going to let Congress define the Constitutional provision with the citizenship statute--otherwise, Congress would have the power to amend the Constitution without complying with the Amendment provisions.
Where's Obama's boyhood home? His Grandmother is still alive, and she doesn't appear to have Alzheimer's. There hasn't been a recent picture of B Hussein and his typical white racist Grandmother in decades. So what gives? We memorialize our President's home towns and early years...yet B Hussein's early years lacks any detail other than an Indonesian upbringing. Such a shame that we have to give up on our tradition of documenting each of our President's early years if B Hussein doesn't lose the next election in November.
I don’t even understand how Obama could have gotten security clearance as CIC. The Luo tribe was/is the controlling stronghold of Mombasa and controlls all the smuggling routes for Al Qaeda. Mombasa was the base for the base for the 1998 embassy bombings.
And now the U.S. Department of the Treasury froze the assests of Revival of Islamic Heritage Society for providing financial and material support to al Qaida and al Qaida affiliates. And Harvard was a grant recipient for funding the Harvard Islamic Society, and Obama went to Harvard?
Just how on earth did this guy think he could hold office?
I recreated the FReeper Polarik test using the image software GIMP.
A week ago, I downloaded from the official Obama website "Fight the Smears" Obama's birth certificate. The 'Edge Detect' filter did not show the "embossed seal" on the BC.
Today, I downloaded the Obama birth certificate from the KOS webite, I used the same image filter test to the KOS BC as I did with the one from the Obama campaign website, and walla, the image of the seal pops into view.
Conclusion: the image of the "embossed seal" on the KOS BC is fake.
The "grandmother" who counts and who was purportedly present when he was born in Kenya is not his grandmother at all but was one of the other wives of his father. It is her that the campaign has made off limits for the obvious reason that she knows facts that the campaign does not want revealed.
IIRC, the KOS one never showed the seal. The one from Obama’s site always did.
Interesting point. I don't think the Commander in Chief needs a security clearance but on the other hand, his position would involve significant conflicts of interest.
I oppose Obama on the whole list of substantive grounds. I oppose all of his policies from tax to foreign policy and national security and I am concerned about his anti-Judeao/Christian ethical background--and his fundamental beliefs are at best Socialist.
But as a pro-Constitution lawyer, I observe that violating inconvenient Constitutional provisions on political grounds is the slippery slope down which our Constitutional rights and privileges will slide.
The KOS site BC only shows the hidden seal found by filtering. The BC from the Obama campaign website did not.
And it was KOS who originally sent the Obama birth certificate to the Obama campaign website, and the Obama people embraced it as "genuine."
No, Madelyn Dunham is 85 and living in Honolulu, reportedly in the same apartment high-rise building where she raised Obama from age 11 to 18. She has kept totally out of the campaign limelight and refused virtually all interview requests, whether by her preference or not.... certainly the Obama campaign has been determined to run him entirely as a “black” candidate and not as a true bi-racial candidate.
Madelyn Dunham is really the only grandma he ever knew, but the campaign has trotted out a bogus Kenyan grandmother to fill out his fictional stories.
In 1986 this was changed to 5 years before the age of 14 and 2 years after the age of 14. (So some may say he fits in this, but I don't see anywhere where it says it was retroactive back to any previous years.
The only time I remember where it indicated any of the changes was retroactive was when it finally included the mother as being one of the citizens where before it only applied to the father being a citizen.
Do you think this web site is a good source?
There is definitely something fishy going on here.
Where do you see an embossed seal on the certificate from this website you just posted?
Here goes . . .
Even giving Obama every benefit of doubt to include maybe having a cheap scanner and/or saying that not a one of his folks can scan at higher resolution is slightly plausible to a degree. Wrong, as these folks triple check what the send/post.
I would think providing the real birth certificate would help him. So, why not provide it? The real birth cerificate and/or a decent scan of the current one could not hurt him?
If a cheap scanner and/or worn out copy is the problem- why not use a better scanner and/or get a new birth certificate copy certified and/or snail mail it to a credible source?
The copy he provided is lame. If I used a DD-214 like that for VA benefits or any Vet organization for membership, I would be asked for a better copy.
Why not provide evidence that Obama signed up for Selective Service, too? Heck, there was no draft then. Why not provide that, too.?
Why put out any document that appears poorly copied at best from the DNC?
There was no question as to where they were born.
Here is the letter I wrote to the U.S. Attorney General:
Most Honerable Michael Mukasey,
There has been considerable frustration among a huge number of citizens about Presidental Candidate Barack H. Obama’s true place of birth. We have word that he may have been born in Kenya.
If Barack Obama’s mother gave birth to Barack in Kenya she did not meet the 5 year residency in the U.S. after the age of 16 because she was 18 when she gave birth. The bottom line is that if he was born in Kenya, which I believe he clearly was, he just is not a citizen under the statute Sec. 1401(g) and he is not eligible to serve as President under Article II, Sec. 1, Par. 4.
How can we get the State of Hawaii to release the official birth certificate of Barack Obama? We are told he was born in Kapliolani Medical Center (according to Wikipedia) in Honolulu, Hawaii. However, Obama’s brother, sister and Kenyan grandmother all insist he was born in Kenya!
It is time we have answers and that they be released to the press.
(My Name and Address)
Good for you!
Obama may or may not have known where he had been born as a child but its quite obvious that he does now and the fact that he’s lending his support to fraudulent documentation about his birth gives a pretty good indication that it wasn’t in the U.S.
>>>>I don’t think the Commander in Chief needs a security clearance....
I never knew that. Thanks.
This was posted on another thread, tuckrdout talks about Obama’s name change.
As a matter of fact, Mr. Obama did change his name..went by the name, Barry Soetoro until college. Then he had some kind of conversion that made him want to suddenly go by his muslim name. And shortly after that, he travelled to Karachi, and spent 3 weeks there. What red blooded American College kid, besides John Walker Lindh, goes to Pakistan, for a vacation? There are no movie theaters, no booze, no bars, no music...and the girls are all covered up! This is where Osama Bin Ladens #2 man was found and killed. Al Qaeda has a big foot hold in this city...after being there for 3 weeks, Obama then went over to Hyderabad, the large Muslim stronghold in India, for another week. These are not vacation hot spots! Why did he go there; to where the terror cells were born?
I am not seeing a Christians denunciation of Islam, in Obama, and a strong witness to the changing power of Jesus Christ, in his life.
Part of the Muslim Jihad, is that it is okay to lie, to pretend not to be Muslim, when trying to bring Islam to Christians. It is called, Hudaibiyah Treatywhich means, kiss the hand of your enemy until you can cut it off!
If a Muslim is on Jihad to destroy the great satan America, from within, and knew that he had to be a Christian to be elected President of the United States, what kind of church would he join? He couldnt stand to hear about Jesus being the only way, week after week. Seems he would want to join a church that instead praises muslim leaders from Libya and the Nation of Islam, and spouts curses on the United States.
I would have to hear Obama renounce Islam, personally. Say that he does NOT believe that allah is the only God, and muhammad is his only prophet, to believe that he is not an undercover muslim on jihad. That is what it is going to take. If he is a believer in Jesus Christ as the son of God; who lived and died for our sins, and was raised again from the dead...if he will say these things, I would feel much better about him. I will not worry that he is really out to finish the job started on 9-11.
But, all his associations point to deception and anti American sentiment. I do not believe that he has the best interest of our Country at heart. I believe that the man wants to destroy our nation, as we know it. He is telling us flat out that he is going to Change our nation. We dont want his kind of change!
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