Posted on 07/05/2008 4:29:05 PM PDT by bruinbirdman
Senior Church of England bishops have held secret talks with Vatican officials to discuss the crisis in the Anglican communion over gays and women bishops.
They met senior advisers of the Pope in an attempt to build closer ties with the Roman Catholic Church, The Telegraph learnt.
Dr Rowan Williams, the Archbishop of Canterbury, was not told of the talks and the disclosure will be a fresh blow to his efforts to prevent a major split in the Church of England.
In highly confidential discussions, a group of conservative bishops expressed their dismay at the liberal direction of the Church of England and their fear for its future.
They met members of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, the most powerful of the Vatican's departments, which enforces doctrine, and was headed by Pope Benedict XVI before his election.
The names of the bishops are known to The Sunday Telegraph, but they have asked for anonymity because the talks are of such a sensitive and potentially explosive nature.
The disclosure comes on the eve of a critical vote as members of the General Synod – the Church's parliament – prepare to decide whether to allow women to be bishops without giving concessions to staunch opponents.
Up to 600 clergy gave warning in a letter to Dr Williams that they may leave the Church unless they receive a legal right to havens within the Church free of women bishops.
In separate developments, three diocesan bishops wrote to the archbishop supporting the threat and two other bishops have said they are preparing to leave the Church. The letter from the Bishops of Chichester, Blackburn and Europe – seen by The Telegraph – argues that traditionalist clergy will not be able to "maintain an honoured place" in the Church without sufficient legislation.
(Excerpt) Read more at telegraph.co.uk ...
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Like every other “secret” in this world, I guess! Secret until it’s strategically leaked.
Well, of COURSE they would not invite the Very Rectum Abp. of Canterbury.
The freaky weirdo has completely creeped out an entire denomination, and very nearly destroyed it.
Ping
LOL, almost. "Ungracious behaviour" is so unAnglican. But the unraveling of the Elizabethan compromise continues, it would seem.
Sigh
This is not a surprising development.
Traditional Anglicans have been drawn increasingly towards the Roman Catholic Church, especially in the era of the papacy of John Paul II.
The moment of truth is coming for the Anglican Communion.
A change may also be coming for the Roman Catholic Church and its relationship to the liberal Protestant churches.
Archbishops and bishops are appointed by The Queen on the advice of the Prime Minister, who considers the names selected by a Church Commission. They take an oath of allegiance to The Queen on appointment and may not resign without Royal authority.So I'm guessing that the real power to appoint the Archbishop of Canterbury rests with the Prime Minister and the current church hierarchy
It would be interesting to see what would happen if Elizabeth made a proclamation firing the Archbishop.
Rowan Williams would stop the liberals if he were sincerely trying to prevent a split.
Instead he facilitates their advance and one must assume that he is one with them.
Does this mean an Anglican Right in the Roman Catholic Church, similar to the Eastern Right?
Do you mean “Rite”?
The founder of the Traditional Anglican Ping List, FReeper ahadams2, didn't care one bit for "Rowan the Fuzzy," but I doubt he'd have laid the full blame for this at Williams' doorstep -- Williams is to blame for allowing the liberal infection to proceed, but the infection well preceded his term as AoC.
IMHO the split is now inevitable. Going forward we will see:
- departures to R.C., Orthodox and Protestant churches
- Anglo-Protestants (led by the Africans, Asians and Southern Cone),and
- Anglo-Catholics (including us in most of the Continuing Churches -- no good idea what's ahead, but I'll have our Archbishop's ear next week)
There already is an Anglican Use for ex=Episcopalians
Oops.
This is great news. Quibbles over doctrinal differences should not stand in the way of Christian unity, especially now when we are facing a mortal threat from Islam.
I think a real Anglican Rite in communion with Rome is where I’d be most comfortable. I love the liturgy of the 1928 Prayer Book.
Will this continue with B16?
I will note too a smaller wave towards Orthodoxy, one that would probably be larger if they were as encouraging as Rome. But even without that I have seen priests transfer, and am closely watching an Episcopal (TEC) parish I know that looks & acts very Orthodox (from my perspective) already.
The moment of truth is coming for the Anglican Communion.
The Anglican Communion as we knew it is (IMHO) ended. It was a relatively recent construct in Anglican history, anyway. There will be new sortings-out, and some will be messy, but I have no doubt that in most of our landings we'll find a way to sprout and continue to spread the Gospel (even here in the spiritually poisoned desert of the Pacific Northwet).
A change may also be coming for the Roman Catholic Church and its relationship to the liberal Protestant churches.
All I can say is, "Be very, very careful." Liberalism is a nasty, persistent and destructive disease, for all the good intentions of its followers.
As someone else pointed out, the word is Rite.
I remember about ten years ago, going to Mass at Our Lady of Walsingham, an Anglican Use Church in Houston.
It was a beautiful liturgy.
Lines are being drawn in the world, what they mean will emerge as the struggle between the various forces continues.
Humanistic Western governments will be forced in the end to respond to Islamofascists.
Christians may not be spared since humanists will say “ extreme religion is the problem” so as to not offend Muslims. They will keep preaching “inclusion” and “multiculturalism.”
Then “hate crimes” laws will be used to justify a crackdown on anyone who is classified as an “extremist.”
The Moribund Mainline has been systematically burning any remaining bridges to the mother Church. By the same token, they have been inspiring traditionalist movements to whom the RC communion begins to seem downright Christian compared to their apostate co-religionists.
“Traditional Anglicans have been drawn increasingly towards the Roman Catholic Church, especially in the era of the Papacy of John Paull II.”
These Anglo-Catholics are not Anglican Traditionalists. Anglcan Traditionalists are the Conservatives of the Evangelical Wing of the Anglican Communion who adhere to the Theology of Thomas Cranmer and the other English Reformers.
Being strictly unbias when it comes to this subject, but, nevertheless, very interested in a culture under assault, one would come to that conclusion.
yitbos
Thank you for you explanation. I have not studied the factions in depth, so I used a generic term to describe matters. I apologize for any confusion.
Anglo-Catholics are a distinct group.
I would add that some evangelical Christians saw Pope John Paul II and Mother Teresa as moral leaders they drew inspiration from.
“Quibbles over doctrinal differences should not stand in the way of Christian unity, especially now when we are facing a mortal threat from Islam.”
Quibbles they are not! Frankly, failure to “quibble” over doctrine would appear to be precisely what has lead to the destruction of the Episcopal Church and the pending demise of the C Of E, not Mohammedanism. Rome will welcome Anglicans with open arms, but it will be on Rome’s terms and with acceptance of Rome’s doctrine. I can guarantee that’s what will be found in response to any overtures to Orthodoxy.
I think protestants will remain separate. Not to offend, but the RCC is not my “mother church” and never will be. There are some protestant churches (like the LCMS of which I am a part) that hold the doctrinal line firmly against the creeping (and sometimes galloping) apostacy overtaking the liberal churches.
I would like to see a return to doctrinal purity, but do not think “all roads lead to Rome” While Christians need to stand together, unity at the cost of doctrine is not a good thing and will lead to the one world religion - you can see it happening already.
Run, don’t walk to the nearest ‘Anglican Use’ parish and jump right in...
Why do so many protestants see it to be their duty to discuss their own theological differences with this or that religion ad infinitum? (Catholicism in particular) What we know at 10 or 20 or 30 years of age is not always what we believe at 40 or 50 or 60. The time and energy spent regurgitating ones inner-most presentments of 'religion' might be better spent supporting the body of Christ against assailants - those who wish to destroy the Peace of Christ ar any cost by denying his divinity...
Catholicism has more Followers in England than The Church of the Queen... That Happens to Man made Churches.. that are founded on Pride!
my kids went to non catholic parochial schools - they exist as well
I am pleased that there are solid Christians of all forms, but I do get a little weary of the world view that Catholics speak for all Christians, and that when we protestants all come to our senses we will be catholics
The body of Christ must indeed be defended against attack, but when we gloss over our differences for the sake of unity, we fall to the lowest common denominator, which serves noone.
There are real theological differences among Christians, and none of us have a total lock on the truth - we see through a glass darkly. But when we say the differences do not matter and we should just all get along, we tend to arrive at the least we can agree on, not the most. The Bible warns against the coming one world religion, and I suspect this final form of apostacy will consider itself at least nominally CHristian. It will not be - it will have forsaken all sound doctrine to achieve unity.
Would please translate this for me, what is a legal haven?
Perhaps he is just facilitating the inevitable in a passive Anglican way
Could you make peace with an Anglican Use Rite?
bttt
. . . speaking as a former "High Church" Episcopalian, crossing the Tiber for a High Churcher is far less traumatic than anyone had led us to believe.
The only doctrinal distinctions we encountered were the questions of the validity of Anglican orders and the supremacy of the Pope. Since 'by your fruits ye shall know them', it was plain that the Episcopal Church USA (by supporting the fruit of the moment) had finally disclosed its utter lack of Christianity. And, frankly, I find Adult Leadership refreshing after the rootless, rudderless thuggery of 815.
Now, for Evangelical Episcopalians it would be a whole different story. It seems to me that they would have a very difficult transition to Rome. Too many liturgical and doctrinal differences.
But for the High Church (Anglo-Catholic) wing, all I can say is I wish we had made the change years ago.
Who leaked this not so secret meeting?
What is Western-Rite Orthodoxy?
My money is on "senior advisers of the Pope".
yitbos
Interestingly enough, the Archbishop of Canterbury is now one of the least relevant people in the Anglican Communion. And if Williams doesn't like this fact, he should realize that it was his own inability/unwillingness to lead that destroyed the prestige of his office.
That would be nice. I always wanted to hear Jerusalem in person. The music for the Catholic liturgy can be pretty bad (I am a RC) especially when it's the Bob Hurd type crap as I have to deal with at my local parish
“...no good idea what’s ahead, but I’ll have our Archbishop’s ear next week...”
I’ll pray for you and your Archbishop. I hope this article is true and bears fruit.
Freegards
I went to the Daily Telegraph link which you provided. As I read, I noticed a cute little discrepancy between the article posted here and what's on The Telegraph's web site.
On this thread it says :
They met members of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, the most powerful of the Vatican's departments, which enforces doctrine, and was headed by Pope Benedict XVI before his election.
However on the web site it says:
They met members of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, the most powerful of the Vatican's departments, the successor to the medieval Inquisition, which enforces doctrine and was headed by Pope Benedict XVI before his election. (bolded emphasis mine).
Did some copy editor with an axe to grind, go through the original version of the article and add the nice little touch about the Inquisition as an afterthought? Probably.
Y'all get the picture now? These silly Anglican clergymen are actually talking to the successors of those responsible for the Inquisition. Y'all want the Inquisition to knock on your doors?
I wonder which side The Telegraph is on here? It's so difficult to tell isn't it?
That Martin Luther? He wasn’t so bad, says Pope
Richard Owen
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article3492299.ece
How MOSES is getting ready to part the waters around Venice
Richard Owen in Venice
Vatican faces EU - INQUISION on tax
Richard Owen Rome
Italian media play down the importance of ‘REVELATIONS’
Richard Owen in Rome
Pope is warned of a green ANTICHRIST
by Richard Owen, Times Online
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article1459003.ece...
They all seem to have an axe to grind and pointed directly at Rome. I pointed out the same thing on another thread - as above. I would expect a check on this one would produce the same thing. They’re so busy weeding other people’s gardens while conveniently forgetting their own history which was worse than anything Rome produced by a long shot. The Reformation was totally devastating not only in Britain but Ireland.
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