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COMMENTARY: Quandry for Catholics At Election Time
Catholic online ^ | 6/7/08 | Dr. Robert Stackpole

Posted on 07/06/2008 3:32:45 PM PDT by tcg

The Catholic Bishops make it very clear in “Faithful Citizenship” that not all issues facing Americans today are of equal value. In section 37 of their document they write: “In making decisions, it is essential for Catholics to be guided by a well-formed conscience that recognizes that all issues do not carry the same moral weight,” and they specifically emphasize “the special claim on our consciences and actions” of “the moral obligation to oppose intrinsically evil acts.” Section 42 is particularly striking:

As Catholics, we are not single-issue voters. A candidate’s position on a single issue is not sufficient grounds for a voter’s support. Yet a candidate’s position on a single issue that involves an intrinsic evil such as support for legal abortion or racism may legitimately lead a voter to disqualify a candidate from receiving support.

Most of my readers will instantly recognize that, on this reckoning, Barack Obama is definitely a supporter of an intrinsic evil: the legalized killing of unborn children.

(Excerpt) Read more at catholic.org ...


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Culture/Society; News/Current Events; Politics/Elections
KEYWORDS: abrotion; catholic; mccain; obama
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To make a prudent judgement, we have to weigh and balance the candidates’ stated positions on the issues of the day, and see whose policies seem to match the principles of Catholic Social Teaching more closely.
1 posted on 07/06/2008 3:32:46 PM PDT by tcg
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To: tcg

Voter’s Guide for Serious Catholics

http://www.caaction.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=81&Itemid=72


2 posted on 07/06/2008 3:39:42 PM PDT by flyfree
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To: tcg

John McCain supports fetal stem cell research. That is not one single iota better, and is in no way “closer” to the teachings of the Church.

http://www.ontheissues.org/Social/John_McCain_Abortion.htm

Neither candidate is worthy of a Catholic’s vote this year.


3 posted on 07/06/2008 3:39:54 PM PDT by mountainbunny
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To: mountainbunny
Neither candidate is worthy of a Catholic’s vote this year.

Nonsense. Obama has a 100% rating with NARAL.

Do you have any idea what 4 years of Democratic control of the Executive, Legislative and Judicial Branches would do to the life-movement?

4 posted on 07/06/2008 3:45:32 PM PDT by mware (F-R-E-E, that spells free. Freerepublic.com baby)
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To: mountainbunny

Less Democrats = More Babies

Simple math for this Catholic


5 posted on 07/06/2008 3:48:09 PM PDT by Son House ( BMT==> Babies, Military, Taxes: Just say NO To Democrats!)
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To: mountainbunny

Obama just today came out again for late term abortions... no they are not the same.


6 posted on 07/06/2008 3:51:52 PM PDT by flyfree
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To: tcg
an intrinsic evil such as support for legal abortion or racism may legitimately lead a voter to disqualify a candidate from receiving support.

Racism is now an intrinsic evil at the same level as abortion? By whose authority, and by what definition of racism?

7 posted on 07/06/2008 3:52:32 PM PDT by browardchad
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To: Son House
Less Democrats = More Babies

Why has that message never gotten through to the western euro descendants who became union members? My FIL drives me nuts with his hatred of republicans, embracement of democrats, and a complete and total dedication to his parish.

8 posted on 07/06/2008 3:58:31 PM PDT by Glenn (Free Venezuela!)
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To: mware
According to the Catholic Voter's Guide thoughtfully posted in post #2, on page 7, item #3, “Embryonic Stem Cell Research” is listed as one of “The Five Non-Negotiable Issues”.

So tell me what there is to negotiate?
McCain supports fetal stem cell research. It seems very simple to me.

Being against most abortions is not the same as being pro-life. Please don't pretend that it is.

9 posted on 07/06/2008 3:59:03 PM PDT by mountainbunny
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To: mountainbunny

I am sure you know there is a HUGE difference between McCain and Obama on the pro-life issues.McCain has an outstanding pro-life record on abortion.We just have to convince McCain on the stem-cell issue.Obama is the darling of Planned Parenthood.Obama’s voting record is Wrong on every abortion and stem-cell issue.In Illinois Obama led the fight to deny medical help to babies who survived an abortion.McCain is not perfect on pro-life issues but he is a FAR SUPERIOR choice to Obama.


10 posted on 07/06/2008 3:59:26 PM PDT by ardara
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To: mountainbunny
Mountain, for the love of God, Obama would not even support the born alive act.

I will not sit back and let my vote count for nothing when innocent life is at stake.

11 posted on 07/06/2008 4:03:37 PM PDT by mware (F-R-E-E, that spells free. Freerepublic.com baby)
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To: mountainbunny

Didn’t the stem cells already come from aborted fetes’ and he is against aborting more for this or any other reason? Wouldn’t be the same as getting an eye transplant from a murdered person while being against murder? What am I missing here?


12 posted on 07/06/2008 4:06:01 PM PDT by flyfree
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To: mware

I will ask again: Which part of non-negotiable is not clear?

Sadly, sometimes there is no good choice. When we are taught that Fetal Stem Cell Research is a non-negotiable issue, how can we set it aside and say that it is?

This is something I have struggled greatly with. I do not even pretend to have the answers, but I know that choosing one great wrong over the other is never the correct thing to do.


13 posted on 07/06/2008 4:08:44 PM PDT by mountainbunny
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To: mountainbunny
Your reading too much into this. Read my reply in #12

McCain isn't in favor or aborting embryos for harvesting cells or for other reasons. He is in favor of using already dead embryonic cells if they will do any good. Same as using cells from your body when you have died.

14 posted on 07/06/2008 4:12:30 PM PDT by flyfree
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To: mountainbunny
Please stop the lame spin . Your comparing OBama ,a pro abortion, pro partial birth and an evil man who killed a billed in the Ill senate that would supported medical care for babies that survived an abortion . McCain is prolife and anti partial birth. There is a huge difference.
15 posted on 07/06/2008 4:14:23 PM PDT by ncalburt
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To: mountainbunny
Last week after scripture study a group of us hung around to shoot the breeze.

We were talking about the presidential election. One person said that they were going to vote for Obama.

Our priest became very upset telling him about Obama's record on life issues.

When she mentioned McCain's record on stem cell research, he told her given the two records, the choice was clear.

16 posted on 07/06/2008 4:14:51 PM PDT by mware (F-R-E-E, that spells free. Freerepublic.com baby)
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To: mountainbunny

so bunny,
stay home
don’t vote
and let the rest of society choose between candidates
stem cells or partial birth abortion?
Obama to pick the next 2 supreme court justices, or McCain?
stay home
leave it to the rest of us to choose for you


17 posted on 07/06/2008 4:18:59 PM PDT by silverleaf (Fasten your seat belts- it's going to be a BUMPY ride.)
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To: tcg

Hopefully the Catholics will learn from the tragic mistake of the Episcopalians, that if you nurture a poisonous liberal viper, and hold it to your breast, do not be surprised when it bites you.

There is no room in the faith for the faithless and evil. They do not want redemption, they seek damnation for themselves and any they can take with them. They crave the corruption of the body and the spirit, and their lord is not God, but Ba’al Zebub. And their gift to their god is the lives of as many innocents as they can sacrifice.


18 posted on 07/06/2008 4:19:55 PM PDT by yefragetuwrabrumuy
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To: ncalburt

How is killing a fetus for abortion wrong but killing it for research is fine?

Please explain.


19 posted on 07/06/2008 4:22:33 PM PDT by mountainbunny
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To: flyfree
McCain isn't in favor or aborting embryos for harvesting cells or for other reasons. He is in favor of using already dead embryonic cells if they will do any good. Same as using cells from your body when you have died.

That is clearly not true. McCain voted to expand research to more embryonic stem cell lines.

See: http://www.ontheissues.org/2008/John_McCain_Abortion.htm

Stem Cell Research Enhancement Act; Bill S.5 & H.R.3 ; vote number 2007-127 on Apr 11, 2007

The bill:
Allows federal funding for research that utilizes human embryonic stem cells, regardless of the date on which the stem cells were derived from a human embryo, provided such embryos:
have been donated from in vitro fertilization clinics;
were created for the purposes of fertility treatment;
were in excess of the needs of the individuals seeking such treatment and would otherwise be discarded; and
were donated by such individuals with written informed consent and without any financial or other inducements.

Those are fetuses. Not dead cells. Fetuses created for the purposes of fertility treatment" are not dead.

20 posted on 07/06/2008 4:31:58 PM PDT by mountainbunny
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To: mountainbunny

It isn’t right and McCain never said it was, at least I can’t find where he did, can you? McCain said that using cells from the already dead embryo he thought was OK. Like taking the eye from a dead person and giving it to someone else is OK.


21 posted on 07/06/2008 4:32:38 PM PDT by flyfree
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To: mountainbunny
Neither candidate is worthy of a Catholic’s vote this year.

Yet, Osamabama will get the vast majority.

BTW, I am with you on fetal stem cell research being wrong, but to proclaim it "not one iota" more heinous than partial-birth abortion is silly.

22 posted on 07/06/2008 4:32:43 PM PDT by j_tull (Massachusetts, the Gay State. Once leader of the American Revolution, now leading its demise.)
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To: silverleaf
I plan to vote. Just not for either of the candidates for whom killing fetuses for any reason is acceptable.
23 posted on 07/06/2008 4:33:08 PM PDT by mountainbunny
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To: mountainbunny

OK but these cells would be either kept frozen indefinately or discarded... that is what he thought he was voting for anyway.


24 posted on 07/06/2008 4:34:30 PM PDT by flyfree
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To: mountainbunny

OK, a guess:

Your voting for Ron Paul, right?


25 posted on 07/06/2008 4:35:31 PM PDT by flyfree
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To: j_tull

I see the wisdom of the Church at play here. They have consistently opposed Fetal Stem Cell Research and I see why.

We either respect life or we do not. If we do, we don’t accept that one life is worth more or less because it is useful to kill it.


26 posted on 07/06/2008 4:36:43 PM PDT by mountainbunny
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To: flyfree

::snort::

No.


27 posted on 07/06/2008 4:37:04 PM PDT by mountainbunny
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To: mountainbunny

LOL! I like the snort!


28 posted on 07/06/2008 4:37:49 PM PDT by flyfree
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To: browardchad
By whose authority, and by what definition of racism?

If the Democrat, or anyone who supports the Democrat, says the Republican candidate is racist, then he's racist.

29 posted on 07/06/2008 4:37:52 PM PDT by Arthur McGowan
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To: mountainbunny

To answer your question I refer you to the editorial in the3/2/08 editon of the Weekly Catholic Newspaper which endorses McCain over Obama on the pro-life issues. That same editorial goes on to say if Obama is elected we will get:2 more Supreme Court justices who consider abortion a right
federally funded abortion on demand
abortion in military hospitals
federally funded abortion overseas
vicious regulatory attacks on pro-life doctors,nurses and clinics
eforts to reclassify churches and pro-life activities threatening their tax-exempt status
“the Freedom of Choice Act” a federal law mandating abor
tion on demand in every state
the end of abstinence education
THE CHICE FOR MCCAIN IS VERY CLEAR


30 posted on 07/06/2008 4:39:08 PM PDT by ardara
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To: tcg

This Catholic has no quandry, NOBAMA


31 posted on 07/06/2008 4:40:07 PM PDT by Lion Den Dan
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To: mountainbunny
::snort:: No.

Well Bob Barr is just as nutty. And his three marriages certainly should make a Catholic blanch.

32 posted on 07/06/2008 4:40:56 PM PDT by buccaneer81 (Bob Taft has soiled the family name for the next century.)
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To: flyfree
OK but these cells would be either kept frozen indefinately or discarded... that is what he thought he was voting for anyway.

So, they are "cells" when people want to killed them and experiment on them, and "fetuses" when individuals want to destroy them?

Wow. Just... wow.

33 posted on 07/06/2008 4:40:57 PM PDT by mountainbunny
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To: Lion Den Dan

Nobrainer, Nobama.


34 posted on 07/06/2008 4:41:14 PM PDT by johniegrad
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To: tcg
Most of my readers will instantly recognize that, on this reckoning, Barack Obama is definitely a supporter of an intrinsic evil: the legalized killing of unborn children.

And born children, too.

35 posted on 07/06/2008 4:41:22 PM PDT by BlessedBeGod
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To: mountainbunny
Actually, I think your talking about embryos, not fetuses. They talk about getting stem cells from embryos, and in the case of McCain he was talking about embryos that would have been frozen indefinitely or discarded anyway. This is the same discussion we had with G.W.Bush. Same policy as far as I can tell except Bush listed certain lines, and McCain hasn't.

However if you don't vote for McCain, then it is one more vote not countered for Obama. You might as well write Obama a check.

36 posted on 07/06/2008 4:44:56 PM PDT by flyfree
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To: mountainbunny
Your full of it . Other posters have already corrected you on McCain stance on stem cell research . Obama is the PRO ABORTION and PRO PARTIAL BIRTH candidate. The fact you trying to Peddle misinformation for OBama is the WEIRD PART. OBama supports denying Emergency care for babies that survive abortions.Obama want them to DIE UNTREATED in Abortion clinics and you peddle misinformation about McCain. Shame on YOU.
37 posted on 07/06/2008 4:45:20 PM PDT by ncalburt
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To: buccaneer81

Bob Barr also drove his wife to an abortionist.


38 posted on 07/06/2008 4:55:57 PM PDT by mware (F-R-E-E, that spells free. Freerepublic.com baby)
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To: All
This is from the most recent National Right To Life News.

Roe v. Wade.

McCain ...opposed

Obama...supports

Partial Birth Abortion Ban

McCain...supports

Obama...opposes.

Taxpayer Funding of Abortion

McCain...opposes

Obama...supports

Parental Notification,B>

McCain...supports

Obama...opposes

Protecting Abortion Survivors

McCain...supported

Obama...OPPOSED

Embryonic Stem Cell Research

McCain...supports

Obama...supports

Human Cloning.

McCain...opposes

Obama...supports.

39 posted on 07/06/2008 5:07:24 PM PDT by mware (F-R-E-E, that spells free. Freerepublic.com baby)
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To: ardara

McClain voted for Ginsberg. I am also not voting for either of the two fronts for One World Gov’t forced upon us.


40 posted on 07/06/2008 5:14:41 PM PDT by Linden1209
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To: tcg

There really isn’t any issue on which Obama has been more clear and consistent than abortion. He’s in favor of it.


41 posted on 07/06/2008 5:14:55 PM PDT by Brilliant
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To: browardchad
"Racism is now an intrinsic evil at the same level as abortion? By whose authority, and by what definition of racism?"

No, actually it is not. Abortion deprives a human being of life. Racism merely makes some people uncomfortable.

42 posted on 07/06/2008 5:17:13 PM PDT by Wonder Warthog (The Hog of Steel-NRA)
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To: tcg

The title indicates there may be some reasons to vote for a Democrat. What would those be? I can’t think of a single issue that would excuse anyone to vote for a Democrat.


43 posted on 07/06/2008 5:18:23 PM PDT by Conservativegreatgrandma
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To: Linden1209

If you think he’s going to nominate someone like Ginsberg to the Supreme Court, think again. Obama might. Obama will probably nominate Hillery, who is probably the most partisan person in America, and who was instrumental in putting Ginsberg on the Court in the first instance.

McCain might appoint some mealy moderate to get him by the liberal Democrats who control the Senate, but there is no way he’s going to nominate an extremist nutcase like Ginsberg or Hillary.


44 posted on 07/06/2008 5:18:54 PM PDT by Brilliant
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To: mware
Bob Barr also drove his wife to an abortionist.

Holy crap. I had no idea.

45 posted on 07/06/2008 5:20:18 PM PDT by buccaneer81 (Bob Taft has soiled the family name for the next century.)
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To: Conservativegreatgrandma

Fr. Corapi is talking about the abortion issue right now.


46 posted on 07/06/2008 5:25:37 PM PDT by mware (F-R-E-E, that spells free. Freerepublic.com baby)
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To: Linden1209

Everyone voted for her.
The SENATE voted for Ginsberg 98 to 0 ! That was back in 1994 before the 2000 election. With that logic that means you would not vote for any Repub in the senate ! How can you compare a radical Marxist named Obama with a camp full of radical Marxists/ pro terrorist supporters to a moderate Repub ?


47 posted on 07/06/2008 5:35:19 PM PDT by ncalburt
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To: mware

Then what is the quandry?


48 posted on 07/06/2008 5:44:53 PM PDT by Conservativegreatgrandma
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To: Conservativegreatgrandma
I see no quandry,

What needs to be done is someone like Fr Pavone has to sit down and explain just what stem cell research entails.

So many people do not really understand the difference between adult stem cell research and embryonic stem cell research.

There are over 72 clinical treatments using adult stem cells, and not one clinical use for embryonic stem cells.

It is a matter of learning the facts.

49 posted on 07/06/2008 5:51:14 PM PDT by mware (F-R-E-E, that spells free. Freerepublic.com baby)
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To: Lion Den Dan

Im Catholic too and no obama here either but i grew up in NJ, the whole state is catholic. I don’t get how it can be so BLue...followed by new York and the rest of the east coast...How how how. I just dont’ get it. Inner Cities maybe but i still can’t imaging it canceling out the suburbs. Only thing i can think of it that they just don’t get it.


50 posted on 07/06/2008 5:52:28 PM PDT by genxer
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