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COMMENTARY: Quandry for Catholics At Election Time
Catholic online ^ | 6/7/08 | Dr. Robert Stackpole

Posted on 07/06/2008 3:32:45 PM PDT by tcg

The Catholic Bishops make it very clear in “Faithful Citizenship” that not all issues facing Americans today are of equal value. In section 37 of their document they write: “In making decisions, it is essential for Catholics to be guided by a well-formed conscience that recognizes that all issues do not carry the same moral weight,” and they specifically emphasize “the special claim on our consciences and actions” of “the moral obligation to oppose intrinsically evil acts.” Section 42 is particularly striking:

As Catholics, we are not single-issue voters. A candidate’s position on a single issue is not sufficient grounds for a voter’s support. Yet a candidate’s position on a single issue that involves an intrinsic evil such as support for legal abortion or racism may legitimately lead a voter to disqualify a candidate from receiving support.

Most of my readers will instantly recognize that, on this reckoning, Barack Obama is definitely a supporter of an intrinsic evil: the legalized killing of unborn children.

(Excerpt) Read more at catholic.org ...


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Culture/Society; News/Current Events; Politics/Elections
KEYWORDS: abrotion; catholic; mccain; obama
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To: mware

No Intelligent American can Vote for Obama(B.O. HUSSEIN).
That given, he beat Hildbeast at least for now: and We Must Pray and work as hard as we can to “ SAVE AMERICA FROM HUSSEIN!”


51 posted on 07/06/2008 5:53:42 PM PDT by True Republican Patriot (God Bless America and The Republicans)
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To: tcg
Fr. Pavone is now on EWTN is speaking of the election and abortion.

"Anyone who does not think that babies have a right to life, does not deserve your vote."

52 posted on 07/06/2008 5:56:05 PM PDT by mware (F-R-E-E, that spells free. Freerepublic.com baby)
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To: mountainbunny

My God, the difference is like day and night, good and evil!
Ask your priest for counseling, whatever, BUT dont Vote to allow the Evil of Obama:-)PLEASE!


53 posted on 07/06/2008 6:01:12 PM PDT by True Republican Patriot (God Bless America and The Republicans)
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To: mountainbunny

Hello, Earth to Mountainbunny?


54 posted on 07/06/2008 6:04:26 PM PDT by True Republican Patriot (God Bless America and The Republicans)
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To: mware

During his meeting with Catholic leaders last Friday, Sen. McCain reminded Philadelphia Catholics of his pro-life voting record and emphasized that he would “maintain that commitment” if elected president.

Deal Hudson, one of the leaders present at the meeting, informed CNA that when it came to McCain vetoing FOCA, “Nobody asked him that question. My view is that, of course, he would veto it.”

Fr. Frank Pavone of Priests for Life agreed with Hudson, saying, “I have no doubt that he would veto it.”

“Moreover, it’s so extreme, I really don’t think it would ever reach his desk, even if the Democrats increased their numbers in Congress,” Fr. Pavone said.

Barack Obama has made his position on FOCA clear by promising at a July 17, 2007 speech to the Planned Parenthood Action Fund that signing it into law would be his first act as president.

http://catholicnewsagency.com/new.php?n=13011


55 posted on 07/06/2008 6:09:29 PM PDT by flyfree
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To: buccaneer81; mware

Yep, Bob Barr is Unholy crap!


56 posted on 07/06/2008 6:11:46 PM PDT by True Republican Patriot (God Bless America and The Republicans)
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To: mountainbunny

Based both on his co-sponsorship of the Freedom of Choice Act and his comments on Roe v. Wade, Obama is committed to legal abortion at any stage of pregnancy for essentially any reason, and he wants it subsidized by taxpayers too.

http://corner.nationalreview.com/post/?q=NDhhNWRkOTdiZDAwM2RkM2JiNGY0ZjRlNGYzODkyNDA=

He is one of the most pro-abortion nominees ever.


57 posted on 07/06/2008 6:14:00 PM PDT by flyfree
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To: tcg

how ironic...my parish priest left my house literally 30 minutes ago as we had him over for an Independence Day barbacue...nice guy- Naval Academy grad, spent nine years in the Navy, most as a naval aviator before entering the priesthood...

he summed up his years in the Navy (77-85) in the following; “Carter was a nightmare- once Reagan got into office you could sense a different attitude”...

we spoke about the upcoming election, I should say I spoke about it and he listened...I said for any Catholic or Christian the choice is simple- even if abortion is not a major voting issue you CANNOT vote for hussien obama with his live birth and partial birth abortion history, with his desire for federally funded abortions, with his desire for “reproductive justice” will will be determined and handed out by a single person, in good conscience....

he simply said, “I agree”....


58 posted on 07/06/2008 6:14:32 PM PDT by God luvs America (When the silent majority speaks the earth trembles!)
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To: ardara; mountainbunny

“We just have to convince McCain on the stem-cell issue.”

I agree that is the only rational choice we have. It will take lots of logically organized grassroots emails and phone calls and it can be done. We need to clarify the incongruity of being anti abortion but pro fetal stem cell usage as it is usually being done today. Perhaps we can enlighten him and persuade McCain to support fetal stem cell research being done only with post birth umbilical cord donations. I know I would have given the cords right after childbirth so that the fetal stem cells could be extracted and I would imagine many would love to do so. Somehow this post birth method has to be made to be seen as a potential money maker to the hospital corporations too.


59 posted on 07/06/2008 6:16:24 PM PDT by Domestic Church (AMDG...)
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To: God luvs America
.my parish priest left my house literally 30 minutes ago as we had him over for an Independence Day barbacue...nice guy- Naval Academy grad, spent nine years in the Navy, most as a naval aviator before entering the priesthood...

He should write a memoir someday. I'll bet it would be enlightening.

60 posted on 07/06/2008 6:19:16 PM PDT by buccaneer81 (Bob Taft has soiled the family name for the next century.)
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To: buccaneer81

he said he was on a ship passing through the Suez Canal then over to the straits of Horuz and in 1981....they were there for a while and were going to be relieved by another US ship....it was just before Reagan was about to take over...he said all of a sudden a call came over the radio just days before Reagan was set to be President; the hostages had been released and they should ship back to Italy....


61 posted on 07/06/2008 6:25:17 PM PDT by God luvs America (When the silent majority speaks the earth trembles!)
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To: God luvs America
I hear you.

I have become pretty close to my parish priest and I think he feels comfortable enough to chat with me informally on politics.

He liked Dunkin Hunter and Mike Huckabee.

He is a bit disappointed in the choices we have but given the choices, he knows which one is the greater evil.

62 posted on 07/06/2008 7:01:33 PM PDT by mware (F-R-E-E, that spells free. Freerepublic.com baby)
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To: ncalburt

Even a moderate Republican would not vote to declare his fellow POW/MIAs dead in spite of much evidence, including aerial photos of the rescue code spelled out in rocks, to the contrary. Even a moderate Republican would not be utterly rude to wives of POW/MIAs. And even a moderate Republican would not, allegedly, make a profit off the men he purposely left to die at the bloody hands of the Communist VNs. How could you vote FOR him?


63 posted on 07/06/2008 7:08:28 PM PDT by Linden1209
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To: Linden1209
Kind of new here at FR aren't ya?

Just saying.

64 posted on 07/06/2008 7:10:45 PM PDT by mware (F-R-E-E, that spells free. Freerepublic.com baby)
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To: ncalburt

Even a moderate Republican would not vote to declare his fellow POW/MIAs dead in spite of much evidence, including aerial photos of the rescue code spelled out in rocks, to the contrary. Even a moderate Republican would not be utterly rude to wives of POW/MIAs. And even a moderate Republican would not, allegedly, make a profit off the men he purposely left to die at the bloody hands of the Communist VNs. How could you vote FOR him?


65 posted on 07/06/2008 7:14:15 PM PDT by Linden1209
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To: Glenn

Put another way; should a normal, healthy pregnancy be terminated? No. Democrats lead the word game, the media echo’s them, and it kills babies. They will use ‘safe, legal, rare’ as a mantra, but not one can defend terminating a normal, healthy babies’ life. Our terms are just, and would allow an option for a real medical emergency.


66 posted on 07/06/2008 7:29:08 PM PDT by Son House ( BMT==> Babies, Military, Taxes: Just say NO To Democrats!)
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To: Linden1209
You have lost it ! Your peddling flat out lies about McCain.
You intentionally post half truths and phony conspiracy lies to help out Obama ! I just cornered you on the Ginsberg misinformation line which has been used a dozen times . So you drag out the tired MIA conspiracy story and add the War Profiteer story. Do you realize McCain has two sons serving in Iraqi in the Marine Corp ?
Oh course you do .You ignore those facts too.
Where do you get these talking points DU or the OBama smear website ?
67 posted on 07/06/2008 7:32:56 PM PDT by ncalburt
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To: tcg
No Catholic Can Vote for Obama. If they do they are basically excommunicating themselves from the Catholic Church.

enter the Table of Contents of the Catechism of the Catholic Church here

1: CCC Search Result - Paragraph # 2271  (618 bytes )  preview document matches
1 Since the first century the Church has affirmed the moral evil of every procured abortion. This teaching has not changed and remains unchangeable. Direct abortion,
URL: http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/2271.htm
97%**********

2: CCC Search Result - Paragraph # 2272  (580 bytes )  preview document matches
2 Formal cooperation in an abortion constitutes a grave offense. The Church attaches the canonical penalty of excommunication to this crime against human life. "A
URL: http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/2272.htm
96%**********

3: CCC Search Result - Paragraph # 2322  (290 bytes )  preview document matches
2 From its conception, the child has the right to life. Direct abortion, that is, abortion willed as an end or as a means, is a "criminal" practice (GS 27 § 3),
URL: http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/2322.htm
96%**********

4: CCC Search Result - Paragraph # 2274  (554 bytes )  preview document matches
gravely opposed to the moral law when this is done with the thought of possibly inducing an abortion, depending upon the results: a diagnosis must not be the equivalent
URL: http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/2274.htm

68 posted on 07/06/2008 7:44:03 PM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: mountainbunny

McCain is anti-abortion. I really don’t think he will move on the stem cell research issue at all.


69 posted on 07/06/2008 7:46:01 PM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: tcg
COMMENTARY: Quandry for Catholics At Election Time

The Latest Refinement (Obama on Abortion)

CNN Runs Biased News Story Covering Up Barack Obama’s Pro-Abortion Record

Jill Stanek: Obama's biggest lie about supporting infanticide

The Battle for Catholic Voters

New Report Indicates Voters Most Interested in Barack Obama’s Position on Abortion

Deal Hudson: Obama and Infanticide?

Ad asks Obama: ‘If fatherhood begins at conception, when does life begin?’

Embryonic stem-cell research immoral, unnecessary, bishops say

Catholics should not vote for Obama

Catholic Caucus: It is a sin to vote/support Obama/DNC [abortion]

More Catholics leaning towards Democrats, poll reports (really not Catholics)

The Catholic-Obama Problem (Pope Benedict XVI instructs Catholics about pro-abortion candidates)

Obama's Abortion Bombshell: Unrestricted Abortion....

NARAL Catholics Line Up for Obama

Editorial: Disagreeing with Doug Kmiec One More Time

State-Funded Embryo Research "Makes Taxpayers Complicit in Killing", say Bishops

McCain Meets Privately with Fr. Pavone - Says Constitutional Right to Life Applies to Unborn

Faithful Citizenship: “Catholic Vote” is very sought after

Has Obama dissolved his Catholic advisory council?

Commentary: Faithful Citizenship and the Formed Conscience

Catholic League: Where's Obama's 'Catholic Advisory Council'? [Not to be found!]

Right-wing Christians beginning to lean left (Misleading headline)

Catholics Debate Obama Vote

US Bishops Urge Voters to Give Priority to Life [Ecumenical]

Corralling the Catholic vote: Political necessity or pipe dream?

DOUG KMIEC: Catholic Reasons for Hope in the General Election

EDITORIAL: Why This Catholic Dreads the Campaign

The Catholic-Obama Problem (Pope Benedict XVI instructs Catholics about pro-abortion candidates)

Thoughts On ‘Roman Catholics For Obama’

How Obama's Catholics Will Dodge the Infanticide Question

Catholic Pro-Life Leader Feuds With Barack Obama's "Catholic" Backers

McCain and the Pope: McCain cannot win in November without the Catholic vote (Reagan re-visited?)

Catholics Cannot Vote for Pols Who Support Abortion, Except for Morally Grave Reasons: KY Bishops

70 posted on 07/06/2008 7:46:45 PM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: mountainbunny

71 posted on 07/06/2008 7:47:22 PM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: Salvation
Salvation, I think there is a chance to turn him around on the embryonic stem cell research.

Most of the pro life folks here are well informed on the issue.

With the new procedures and discoveries of pluripotent stem cells there is no need for the use of embryonic stem cell research.

Besides the fact that there are over 70 clinical uses of adult stem cells while there are none for embryonic stem cells.

72 posted on 07/06/2008 7:50:54 PM PDT by mware (F-R-E-E, that spells free. Freerepublic.com baby)
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To: silverleaf; mountainbunny

mountainbunny must be a Obama supporter if she wants to stay home and not vote. That’s a sure fire way to get him elected.


73 posted on 07/06/2008 7:51:13 PM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: mountainbunny

3,000 schedule C appointees, providing for the common defense of this nation and appointments to the Federal Bench are only three reasons why McCain is far superior to that Commie, pro-infanticide, racist, POS Obama.


74 posted on 07/06/2008 8:04:17 PM PDT by A.A. Cunningham
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To: mware; mountainbunny; Coleus

Plus, have you seen the threads that coleus has posted about adult stem cells?

All the cures that have occurred have been because of adult stem cells; none at all from embryonic stem cells.

There’s a message from God in those facts!!!

I do think that McCain will change on this issue.


75 posted on 07/06/2008 8:05:41 PM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: browardchad
Racism is now an intrinsic evil at the same level as abortion?

Ever hear of Margaret Sanger?

76 posted on 07/06/2008 8:06:18 PM PDT by A.A. Cunningham
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To: mountainbunny
We either respect life or we do not. If we do, we don’t accept that one life is worth more or less because it is useful to kill it.

So you disagree with the teaching of the Church that the state has the right to impose capital punishment, right?

77 posted on 07/06/2008 8:12:51 PM PDT by A.A. Cunningham
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To: God luvs America
he said all of a sudden a call came over the radio just days before Reagan was set to be President; the hostages had been released

Doesn't jibe with what actually happened.

78 posted on 07/06/2008 8:51:15 PM PDT by A.A. Cunningham
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To: ncalburt
Your peddling flat out lies about McCain.

Do you realize McCain has two sons serving in Iraqi in the Marine Corp(sic) ?

If you're going to point the finger at someone else make sure all your i's are dotted and your t's are crossed. McCain has one son, Jimmy, who is a United States Marine who returned to the States from Iraq in February. McCain has a second son, Jack, who is a Midshipman at the Naval Academy, Class of 2009.

79 posted on 07/06/2008 8:59:40 PM PDT by A.A. Cunningham
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To: A.A. Cunningham
Ever hear of Margaret Sanger?

I'm quite familiar with Sanger. The article uses the word "racism" -- not eugenics. One doesn't necessarily follow from the other.

80 posted on 07/07/2008 6:18:18 AM PDT by browardchad
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To: tcg

I’m not in any quandry whatsoever. On the MOST important teachings of the Church, the Republican party is the one whose candidates most closely ‘fit’. Even if there were an individual Democrat whose views were close to those of the Church, I’d be hesitant to vote for that person, because, by doing so, that person would give the Democrat party more power in the Govt. Since that party’s stands are AGAINST what the Church teaches, I wouldn’t want to give them any more power.


81 posted on 07/07/2008 9:58:59 AM PDT by SuziQ
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To: mountainbunny
When there are but two choices, the Church teaches that we choose that person who will cause the least evil. Just because McCain thinks that embryonic stem cell research is OK, I haven't heard him talking about putting tax money into the program. And this is an issue on which he could be persuaded, if shown enough science to bolster our point that using embryonic cells are not better than using adult stem cells.

If we stay home because McCain supports embryonic stem cell research, we are, by our actions ALLOWING more babies to be killed. If Obama wins, not only will he support tax money for Embryonic stem cell research, he'll also push for tax payer funded abortions, and he'll appoint extremely liberal Justices to the Supreme Court who will wipe out ANY gains we've made over the last 15 years.

82 posted on 07/07/2008 10:05:39 AM PDT by SuziQ
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To: Conservativegreatgrandma
The title indicates there may be some reasons to vote for a Democrat. What would those be? I can’t think of a single issue that would excuse anyone to vote for a Democrat.

There are Catholics who are fixated on 'Social Justice' issues, and consider the Democrats much more compassionate on them than Republicans. These issues would include housing for the poor, food for the poor, education for poor children, etc. They can't see that Republican solutions would be better for poor people, because they're not designed to KEEP those people in poverty. Democrats declared a War on Poverty in the 60's, which they lost long ago. Democrat policies are designed to keep people poor so they'll continue to vote for Democrats, so they'll keep the gravy train going.

Those 'Social Justice' Catholics look at abortion as just one issue among many, and don't think it's any more important than taking care of folks who are already here. They also tend to be anti-war, so they use the War on Terror as a reason to vote against Republicans.

83 posted on 07/07/2008 10:12:09 AM PDT by SuziQ
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To: genxer

The Northeast and Midwest are heavily Catholic, and are also heavily UNION. These union members voted largely Democrat, because they considered the Republican party to be the party of the ‘bosses’, and the Democrat party to be that of the ‘workers’. The Democrats, being for the ‘little guy’, would always protect them. This attitude is hard to shake, because there have been generations of union workers, and their party loyalty was passed down through their families. Also, since John F. Kennedy was the first Catholic president, and he was a Democrat, that only cemented that attitude in peoples’ minds.


84 posted on 07/07/2008 10:15:57 AM PDT by SuziQ
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To: Son House; Glenn

If white Catholics voted like white Baptists, Rhode Island, Connecticut, Massholechusetts, and New Jersey would be solidly Republican states in presidential elections.


85 posted on 07/07/2008 10:19:17 AM PDT by Clemenza (You Shoot Me in a Dream, You Better Wake Up and Apologize)
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To: genxer
About 40-45% of New Jersey is Catholic, followed by non-believers (like me) at 15%, followed by Baptists at 9%.

When you combine union members, ditzy soccer moms, government employees, immigrants from all over, and morons who still refer to themselves by their ethnic heritage even if they don't speak their ancestral language, you have a Democratic leaning state.

86 posted on 07/07/2008 10:22:10 AM PDT by Clemenza (You Shoot Me in a Dream, You Better Wake Up and Apologize)
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To: flyfree

Is Deal Hudson still trying to seduce interns?


87 posted on 07/07/2008 10:23:05 AM PDT by Clemenza (You Shoot Me in a Dream, You Better Wake Up and Apologize)
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To: Linden1209

The American POWs are dead. We have been recovering many remains as of late. I feel bad for you if your family member was not recovered yet, and all my sympathy is with those who have yet to recover a loved one from SE Asia. Nevertheless, the probability that American POWs are still alive in Nam is slim to none.


88 posted on 07/07/2008 10:25:10 AM PDT by Clemenza (You Shoot Me in a Dream, You Better Wake Up and Apologize)
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To: Clemenza

Tacky. Do you believe in repentance and forgiveness?


89 posted on 07/07/2008 10:29:18 AM PDT by SuziQ
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To: Salvation; Canticle_of_Deborah
No Catholic Can Vote for Obama. If they do they are basically excommunicating themselves from the Catholic Church

someone needs to clue doug kmiec in on that truth!

90 posted on 07/07/2008 10:30:21 AM PDT by xsmommy
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To: SuziQ

I’ve done things just as bad as Mr. Hudson, but I never put myself forward as the spokesman for moral propriety.


91 posted on 07/07/2008 10:32:40 AM PDT by Clemenza (You Shoot Me in a Dream, You Better Wake Up and Apologize)
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To: Clemenza

I refer you to, “POW/MIA’s - Report of the Select Committee on POW/MIA Affairs United States Senate, January 13, 1993 -Ordered to be printed. Filed pursuant to Senate Resolution 10. 103d Congress 1st Session, Report 103-1.” It has an olive green cover. Also, the hearings were on CSPAN.
Our people, military and civilian were not only held in S/E Asia (Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia) but also taken to the Soviet Union, see pps. 426 and 427 among others.


92 posted on 07/07/2008 11:22:45 AM PDT by Linden1209
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To: ncalburt

I refer you to, “POW/MIA’s - Report of the Select Committee on POW/MIA Affairs United States Senate, January 13, 1993 -Ordered to be printed. Filed pursuant to Senate Resolution 10. 103d Congress 1st Session, Report 103-1.” It has an olive green cover. Also, the hearings were on CSPAN.
Our people, military and civilian were not only held in S/E Asia (Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia) but also taken to the Soviet Union, see pps. 426 and 427 among others.


93 posted on 07/07/2008 11:24:36 AM PDT by Linden1209
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To: mountainbunny

“How is killing a fetus for abortion wrong but killing it for research is fine?
Please explain”

I’ll take a stab. It isn’t.
However, how many millions of unborn babies pay the price because we don’t do the political math. That is not negotiating at all. There are different levels of evils in the Church...If there are 5 life issues and McCain is correct on 4 outof 5, that is clearly an ethical and Catholic vote.


94 posted on 07/07/2008 11:31:19 AM PDT by rbmillerjr ("bigger government means constricting freedom"....................RWR)
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To: SuziQ

I agree with you and the premise of the title is absurd. There is NO issue on which the Democrat solution is preferable to the Republican solution. Therefore, the author has little credility. He is telling Catholic voters that he understands that Democrats are correct on many issues but they’re wrong on abortion and therefore they should vote against the Democrats.


95 posted on 07/07/2008 11:56:15 AM PDT by Conservativegreatgrandma
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To: SuziQ
there have been generations of union workers, and their party loyalty was passed down through their families.

What they don't understand is that union bosses are all about extracting wealth from the union and care just about as much for the workers as the Democrats, which is nothing. They want the power.

96 posted on 07/07/2008 12:14:49 PM PDT by Conservativegreatgrandma
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To: Clemenza

I wouldn’t say he’s put himself forward as a spokesman for moral propriety lately. He’s just trying to educate Catholics about their place in the ‘public square’.


97 posted on 07/07/2008 2:56:45 PM PDT by SuziQ
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To: Conservativegreatgrandma

So true. I grew up in the South, but the only prejudice I ever had was against Unions, because some union thugs came to our house when my Daddy was at work, and tried to ‘convince’ my 8 months pregnant Mama to talk my Daddy into voting for the union that wanted to ‘represent’ the workers at his place of employment. The vote happened to be that evening, so he and a few friends went, they made sure everyone was in the room, then his friends stood in front of the doors while he went to the front of the room, and told everyone what had happened. Needless to say, the union wasn’t allowed in, and I don’t think they ever got in.


98 posted on 07/07/2008 3:12:29 PM PDT by SuziQ
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To: Conservativegreatgrandma

Later in the article, he repeats the silly mantra about the Iraq war being a ‘war for oil’, and saying that since McCain supports it, that’s a mark against him as far as Catholic teaching is concerned, so he lost credibility with me, even if he recognizes that Obama is worse than McCain.


99 posted on 07/07/2008 3:21:28 PM PDT by SuziQ
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To: xsmommy

**someone needs to clue doug kmiec in on that truth!**

That’s the truth!


100 posted on 07/07/2008 3:41:51 PM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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