Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

Senate Aides now think they know more about military firearms than do our senior military leadership.
1 posted on 07/11/2008 5:24:57 AM PDT by DJ Taylor
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies ]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-2021-31 last
To: DJ Taylor
The idea that replacing the M16 family solely because it is not “ideal” or “perfect” is a serious mistake.

Even if there was a significantly better system out there, regardless of caliber or even “reliability”, the cost alone would likely kill most other needed systems in the pipeline-yes the pipeline. The acquisition process is not just a guy writing a check-the bigger picture requires testing of commonalities, capabilities and interaction with all other related systems.

Say a new rifle is about the same cost, does it use the same magazines? We have about 20 million M16 mag in the inventory in the army alone), does it use the same optics platforms? Tools? Is it compatible with the load bearing equipment? Cleaning gear? Range limitations? Does our ammunition plant (LC AAP) have the ability to ramp up and produce scads of ammo rapidly? Is it patented and therefore royalty driven? (Ask the US Army about the 1903 Springfield-the US Army was found in violation of Paul Mauser's patents and only the First WW stopped the payments to FN/Mauser....)

All of you “quick change” specialists need to look past a one gun, several magazines and a case of ammo mentality to make any switch.

As a retired combat infantryman, I do agree that our troops need the best equipment-but the “best” is an elusive idea.

I want my son to carry a 100% percent effective, unlimited capacity, pinpoint accurate and near weightless system-but alas, the laws of physics and economy dictate otherwise. he too, will tote a 14+ pound small arm that requires lots of professional knowledge and training to employ. As it should be.

I do think that a partial upgrade to the 6.8 SPC is a viable idea-a simple barrel and bolt change out by unit armorers is reasonable. LC AAP can ramp up production and phase back 556 as the main round while units gradually upgrade.

Finally, let not anyone think the 6.8 SPC is the equivalent of the 762x51 NATO-it is not anywhere near the level of energy and range. (115 grn at 2600 vice 147 grn at 2800) Plus it will bump recoil up to about 150% of the 556.

Remember-NO FREE LUNCHES FOR THE DOGS OF WAR.

God Bless

33 posted on 07/11/2008 9:42:14 AM PDT by Manly Warrior (US ARMY (Ret) "No Free Lunches for the Dogs of War")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies ]

To: DJ Taylor

Truthfully, how much do generals really know about bullet wound characteristics, penetrating power, kill/disable ability, etc. There are too many retired generals working for arms manufacturers to leave the choice up to them.

In many categories the M4 falls short of other rifles. For one, the M4 has such close fitting parts and tight tolerances that dirt will foul it much easier than their competitors. The “perceived lack of stopping power” is real. At distances over 100 yards, the bullet lacks the velocity to yaw and cause a larger, more debilitating wound than other rounds. Many, many soldiers tell of shooting an enemy combatant and watching them run off as the bullet zips right through them causing only a tiny hole and little damage.


34 posted on 07/11/2008 10:03:06 AM PDT by Blood of Tyrants (G-d is not a Republican. But Satan is definitely a Democrat.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies ]

To: DJ Taylor; archy; Joe Brower; Squantos

“The Brown Bess musket was good enough for your grandpa, and it’s good enough for you! Besides, we have tens of thousands in the inventory, and it’s too costly to switch to a new, unproven design.”


35 posted on 07/11/2008 10:13:06 AM PDT by Travis McGee (--- www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com ---)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies ]

To: DJ Taylor
The DoD has already developed and is currently fielding a new rifle. We'll soon find out if there's any competition for the M16.


36 posted on 07/11/2008 10:41:08 AM PDT by xsrdx (Diligentia, Vis, Celeritas)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies ]

To: DJ Taylor
Bring back the XM8!

XM8 Assault Rifle

43 posted on 07/11/2008 12:01:57 PM PDT by GunRunner
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies ]

To: DJ Taylor
Hill Aides to Test M4 Alternatives

After the headline, the article is something of a let-down.
I thought this might be news about some of Hillary's posse getting
really serious about some "payback" for all the perceived slights
from the Obama camp during the primaries.
(/sarc)
53 posted on 07/11/2008 2:55:00 PM PDT by VOA
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies ]

To: DJ Taylor


...a small group of tenacious senators, including Oklahoma Republican James Coburn,...

The only Republican U.S. Senator from Oklahoma I know of is TOM Coburn, M.D.
And yes, he’s a tenacious good guy.

Sounds like Military.Com, the Daily Kos and a few other sources have
confused the good senator with the sadly departed actor James Coburn.
Maybe they think that ob-gyn doctor Tom Coburn M.D. is also “The President’s
Analyst” (one of my favorite Coburn films).

Senator Thomas Allen “Tom” Coburn, M.D. (R, OK)
http://coburn.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=AboutSenatorCoburn.Biography

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Coburn

James Coburn (the late, missed actor)
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000336/

The President’s Analyst
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0062153/

Google for “Senator James Coburn”
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22Senator+James+Coburn%22&btnG=Google+Search


55 posted on 07/11/2008 3:07:12 PM PDT by VOA
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies ]

To: DJ Taylor
I remember Jeff Cooper saying that he thought going to the M16 from the M14 was a bad idea, but he also remembered his old Sergeant during WWII saying the M1 Garand was worthless and they should have stuck with the 03 Springfield.

I personally think they should have stuck with the 20 inch barrel version of the M16 as it is still not that long, tho it is pretty heavy.

My guess is soldiers will always like smaller, lighter guns. I also wonder if clearing houses like I sometimes see on TV, the new FN high velocity pistol or machine pistol version might be ideal. I know the Russians did just fine in Berlin using the really underpowered 7.62 pistol caliber PSP sub machine gun.

59 posted on 07/11/2008 3:54:13 PM PDT by yarddog
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies ]

To: DJ Taylor
Senate Aides now think they know more about military firearms than do our senior military leadership.

Well, in a way, they might. At least it is unlikely that the aides are going to be getting the potential kickbacks or campaign donations that the military industrial complex has carefully built over the decades. Letting the Aides do the tests gives the politicians some cover to do the right thing. What if an "aide" is specially hired for just this job, say from the ranks of the military recently separated from active duty? For that matter, I'm available. Where do I sign up?

60 posted on 07/11/2008 3:59:09 PM PDT by ExSoldier (Democracy is 2 wolves and a lamb voting on dinner. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies ]

To: DJ Taylor
OOPS, I just realized that you said MILITARY leadership rather than congressional leadership. But my comment still holds. Senior officers are ALL looking for that high paying Beltway Bandit job after retirement and that makes them vulnerable to collusion. And I'm STILL available. It will take an extensive sampling of available alternatives and a couple thousand test fire rounds each. Also, I get to KEEP all the samples.
61 posted on 07/11/2008 4:03:02 PM PDT by ExSoldier (Democracy is 2 wolves and a lamb voting on dinner. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies ]

To: DJ Taylor
If you hit a target in the right place (with the 5.56mm), you'll stop him, Army leaders argue.

I'll bet a hit just about any place with a 30-06 or .308 would take an adversary down. Might not kill him, but he would go down.

68 posted on 07/11/2008 8:01:22 PM PDT by Vinnie (You're Nobody 'Til Somebody Jihads You)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies ]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-2021-31 last

Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article


FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson