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Speeding: Radar Gun vs. GPS
Hot Hardware ^ | July 17, 2008 | Daniel A. Begun

Posted on 07/18/2008 12:36:51 AM PDT by Schnucki

While an 11-year old, Louisville, Kentucky boy is using a toy radar gun to get drivers to slow down through his neighborhood, the police are finding that real radar guns might not be a match for GPS--at least not when contested in court.

According to a press release issued by Rocky Mountain Tracking, an 18-year old man, Shaun Malone, was able to successfully contest a speeding ticket in court using the data from a GPS device installed in his car. This wasn't just any old make-a-left-turn-100-feet-ahead-onto-Maple-Street GPS; this was a vehicle tracking GPS device--the kind used by trucking fleets--or in this case, overprotective parents. The device was installed in Malone's car by his parents, and the press release makes no mention if the teenager knew that the device was installed in his vehicle at the time.

No matter, because Malone knew by the time he had to show up in court to contest the speeding ticket for going 17-mph over the posted 45-mph speed limit. While the police clocked him going 62-mph, the GPS's data in fact showed him driving at the 45-mph speed limit. In an initial trial-by-affidavit, Malone was found guilty of speeding. GPS expert, Dr. Stephen Heppe wrote a report that essentially said that the GPS data was not accurate enough to contest the accuracy of the radar gun. Malone appealed the decision and had his day in court. At trial, things played out differently:

"However, when he took the stand to begin his testimony, Dr. Heppe corrected that written report, saying that the Rocky Mountain Tracking device was "very" accurate, to within a couple of meters on location and to within 1 mph on speed. Dr. Heppe also pointed out that the GPS device released instantaneous data, and not data averaged over a distance."

Needless to say, with Dr. Heppe's revised testimony, Malone was found innocent of speeding.

Obviously, Rocky Mountain Tracking's motivation for publicizing this incident is to promote the accuracy of its RMT Rover GPS device. But it also brings up a larger issue: The sophistication of vehicle telematics is increasing all the time. Are we now at the point that the data generated from our personal location devices (such as GPS in cell phones and in-car navigation devices) is considered reliable enough to help exonerate us from false accusations? But isn't this also a slippery slope, where the same data can be used to incriminate us as well? It's one thing for parents to keep a close eye on their kids, but what happens when jealous spouses are tracked, or law enforcement uses the data to know where you've been. When does it become an invasion of privacy? Tell us what you think.


TOPICS: Technical
KEYWORDS: beserkcop; donutwatch; gps; leo; police; technology
Found this via www.slashdot.org.
1 posted on 07/18/2008 12:36:51 AM PDT by Schnucki
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To: Schnucki

I wonder what this says about the accuracy of the radar guns? Isn’t it true radar guns have to be calibrated for accuracy? So what happen here?


2 posted on 07/18/2008 12:43:53 AM PDT by rawhide
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To: rawhide
I wonder what this says about the accuracy of the radar guns? Isn’t it true radar guns have to be calibrated for accuracy? So what happen here?

As an old military radar tech, I'm going to suggest that officer Fife did a rolling stop, and that his vehicle was still moving when he took his reading - giving relative velocity - not absolute velocity.

I am also going to suggest officer Fife should be reprimanded, and pay all court costs as well as all of young Mr. Malone's legal fees.

I'm not holding my breath though.

3 posted on 07/18/2008 12:58:07 AM PDT by MrEdd (Heck? Geewhiz Cripes, thats the place where people who don't believe in Gosh think they aint going.)
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To: rawhide
I also believe a FCC license is required to operate a radar gun it might be a blanket coverage but would have to be in force during the stop. something else for a sharp lawyer to check into.
4 posted on 07/18/2008 1:22:01 AM PDT by bikerman (_ _ . /_ _ _ /_ . . / / . . . . / . / . _ . . / . _ _ . / / . . _ / . . . //)
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To: bikerman

Is that morse code in your tagline?


5 posted on 07/18/2008 1:34:28 AM PDT by rawhide
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To: rawhide
My CT(R) training says it reads, "God help us".

Pretty clever tagline, IMHO.

6 posted on 07/18/2008 1:41:55 AM PDT by Does so (...against all enemies, DOMESTIC and foreign...)
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To: bikerman

../.-—/..-/.../-/..-./../—./..-/.-././-../../-/-—/..-/-


7 posted on 07/18/2008 1:42:14 AM PDT by rawhide
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To: rawhide

../.- - -/..-/.../-/..-./../- -./..-/.-././-../../-/- - -/..-/-


8 posted on 07/18/2008 1:43:16 AM PDT by rawhide
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To: Schnucki
'Seems like a lot of trouble gone to for ONE ticket. This 18-y-o needs watching.
9 posted on 07/18/2008 1:46:10 AM PDT by Does so (...against all enemies, DOMESTIC and foreign...)
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To: Does so

-.- -/.- -/./-./././-../- -./- - -/-../-/- - -/...././.-../.- -./..-/...


10 posted on 07/18/2008 1:50:35 AM PDT by rawhide
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To: Schnucki

I could see the day when all cars have GPS, and when you go over a speed limit, cross a solid line, fail to complete stop, you automatically get mailed a ticket.

You know...

for the children.


11 posted on 07/18/2008 1:52:55 AM PDT by Leisler
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To: MrEdd

the radar guns have to be recalibrated each day and many officers are in a hurry when they get out to work or forget to do it. lots to remember out on the street


12 posted on 07/18/2008 2:31:14 AM PDT by bdfromlv (Leavenworth hard time)
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To: Does so
This 18-y-o needs watching

Yep the little sh!t had the nerve to fight back against the government's secondary revenue collection arm - the police. And furthermore he won . How dare he.

13 posted on 07/18/2008 3:07:44 AM PDT by from occupied ga (Your most dangerous enemy is your own government,)
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To: Does so
Seems like a lot of trouble gone to for ONE ticket. This 18-y-o needs watching.

I know that if you are an 18-year-old in New Jersey who gets a major ticket like this, you can expect your insurance premiums to go through the overhead. The kid really had no choice but to fight it. It could have been thousands of dollars a year.

14 posted on 07/18/2008 3:19:32 AM PDT by gridlock (Al Gore wants YOU to live like the Flintstones while HE lives like the Jetsons. .. FREE LAZAMATAZ!)
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To: bikerman

LE and sports Radar have very low power and therefore are exempt from a station or operators license.


15 posted on 07/18/2008 3:20:32 AM PDT by tiger-one (The night has a thousand eyes)
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To: rawhide
LE guns in NH are certified [calibrated] they are with specs annually, by the NHSP radio dept. The units are verified, using tuning forks , they are working correctly by each Dept. policy, usually at the beginning of each shift and logged the has been tested. The MFG's of LE radar state the error specs in their manuals. From my experience + or - one MPH stationary, + or - 2 MPH moving. So what happen here?

There also is the human factor, like picking out the wrong car. Was the GPS calibrated???

16 posted on 07/18/2008 3:30:16 AM PDT by tiger-one (The night has a thousand eyes)
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To: tiger-one; All
You can trick the calibration of both X and Ka band radar by turning the tuning fork 45 degrees while doing the calibration... it makes the unit read about 5-7 mph high, and is a well known trick amongst small town ‘fife’ LEO’s

Full disclosure is important in these cases...

17 posted on 07/18/2008 3:44:15 AM PDT by xcamel (Being on the wrong track means the unintended consequences express train doesnt kill you going by)
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To: MrEdd
If you consider a rolling stop the same as the Cop car was moving when he took the reading, your statement is wrong.

LE radar reads the target when the Cop is moving or stationary. In the moving mode the radar transmit signal is split to read the Cop car speed as it is transmitted toward the target, and fed in to a discriminator circuit with the target's signal, where the cop car speed is subtracted, resulting the target's speed.

18 posted on 07/18/2008 3:44:18 AM PDT by tiger-one (The night has a thousand eyes)
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To: bdfromlv
They are not “recalibrated” they are verified they are working within specs. Calibration is done in a lab.
19 posted on 07/18/2008 3:46:57 AM PDT by tiger-one (The night has a thousand eyes)
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To: xcamel
You can trick the calibration of both X and Ka band radar by turning the tuning fork 45 degrees while doing the calibration... it makes the unit read about 5-7 mph high, and is a well known trick amongst small town ‘fife’ LEO’s

Your statement is wrong. The tuning forks do not calibrate the unit, only verifies it is operating within specs. Your statement is written as if by turning the tuning fork the unit, parameters have been adjusted to a permanent reading of 5-7 MPH high.

If that is what you are saying you do not know what you are talking about.

20 posted on 07/18/2008 4:17:25 AM PDT by tiger-one (The night has a thousand eyes)
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To: Does so

I would do the same, even more. As a matter of principle.


21 posted on 07/18/2008 4:26:02 AM PDT by spetznaz (Nuclear-tipped Ballistic Missiles: The Ultimate Phallic Symbol)
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To: rawhide
"I wonder what this says about the accuracy of the radar guns?"

I wonder what this says about the accuracy of "expert testimony."

22 posted on 07/18/2008 4:32:20 AM PDT by VRWCtaz (You're not just seeing things if you can get others to see them too. Now about the voices...)
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To: rawhide

In Pennsylvania, local police are not allowed to use radar guns due to the potential misuse of the same.

State Police officers receive recurring training on proper use of radar....something local police typically skimp on.


23 posted on 07/18/2008 4:36:09 AM PDT by Erik Latranyi (Too many conservatives urge retreat when the war of politics doesn't go their way.)
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To: tiger-one

A) You didn’t really read what I wrote.
B) Methinks thou doth protest a bit too much.


24 posted on 07/18/2008 4:48:39 AM PDT by xcamel (Being on the wrong track means the unintended consequences express train doesnt kill you going by)
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To: Erik Latranyi
In Pennsylvania, local police are not allowed to use radar guns due to the potential misuse of the same.

ANY speed measuring device can be misused or abused, especially when the cop is under pressure to produce revenue.

25 posted on 07/18/2008 4:54:52 AM PDT by Fresh Wind (Five Year Plans and New Deals, wrapped in golden chains...)
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To: tiger-one

and when not verified daily or recalibrated (in a lab) when needed or logged properly and while used is why you can refute the evidence, human error loses most cases.


26 posted on 07/18/2008 5:22:25 AM PDT by bdfromlv (Leavenworth hard time)
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To: rawhide
"I wonder what this says about the accuracy of the radar guns?"

Used properly, the radar guns are accurate enough that a debate whether 62 mph or 45 mph can never happen unless something else is amiss.

I have 4 sons, 17 to 25 years old now and I have seen DAILY problems with both local and state LEOs who seem to enjoy nothing more than hassling a punk kid to remind the kid who has the power.

We have nearly daily attempts to cite them for "loud exhaust" when they have completely legal (50 state legal) exhaust that isn't even as loud as my fully stock Chevy pick up. We have several instances of cops pulling them over just to lecture them about the front air dam on their car being "illegal" and I've had one charged with a speeding violation that was so absurd the prosecuting attorney threw it out with a look at one photograph of the alledged spot where the incident supposedly happened (no room for detail here, but suffice to say the charge was rediculously fabricated).

Cops have egos
Cops love to excercise authority and feed that ego
Cops enjoy intimidating kids
and last but not least, we all know it.

I can go on with examples, but you all get the point.

27 posted on 07/18/2008 5:27:24 AM PDT by Lloyd227 (and may God bless Oriana Fallaci)
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To: bdfromlv

Agreed


28 posted on 07/18/2008 5:28:56 AM PDT by tiger-one (The night has a thousand eyes)
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To: Leisler
I could see the day when all cars have GPS, and when you go over a speed limit, cross a solid line, fail to complete stop, you automatically get mailed a ticket.

That day has already come to Montgomery County, Maryland (one of the collar counties to Washington DC). No, we don't all have GPS systems, though if you note the number of blue lights shining from car dashboards at night you'll realize that there are quite a few. Instead local government has helped us all maintain safety by putting traffic cameras aaaaaall over the county. You have to be extremely careful now.

But as you say, it's "for the children." That's all that's important, right?

29 posted on 07/18/2008 5:29:37 AM PDT by ottbmare
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To: Lloyd227

I get the point and I can assure you that your local officers are in no way unique.


30 posted on 07/18/2008 5:30:07 AM PDT by CholeraJoe (Gruntled)
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To: rawhide
So what happen here?

The kop had it in for the kid?

31 posted on 07/18/2008 5:34:51 AM PDT by Lonesome in Massachussets (Hillary to Obama: Arkancide happens.)
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To: xcamel; All
If this is what you wrote, You can trick the calibration of both X and Ka band radar by turning the tuning fork 45 degrees while doing the calibration... it makes the unit read about 5-7 mph high, and is a well known trick amongst small town ‘fife’ LEO’s Full disclosure is important in these cases...

Key words and phrases in your statement, TRICK, CLIBRATION, WHILE DOING THE CALIBRATION.

The tuning forks do not calibrate anything. They verify the unit is operating within it's designed parameters.

You still do not know what you are talking about, and attempting to mislead the readers of this thread.

32 posted on 07/18/2008 5:40:57 AM PDT by tiger-one (The night has a thousand eyes)
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To: tiger-one
IOW - you are saying that the radar guns cannot be intentionally miscalibrated even under 'lab conditions'.

This tells me you are simply unwilling to admit the obvious.

33 posted on 07/18/2008 5:46:54 AM PDT by xcamel (Being on the wrong track means the unintended consequences express train doesnt kill you going by)
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To: xcamel

Tuning forks are not used to calibrate the units in the lab or in the field.

Give it up, you are speaking outside of your knowledge base.


34 posted on 07/18/2008 5:54:21 AM PDT by tiger-one (The night has a thousand eyes)
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To: Schnucki
(Scene: 16 year old Junior comes home late on Sat. night after being out on a date, Pop is anxiously pacing the floor in front of the computer in the living room)

Pop: Junior, come here I want to speak with you about the GPS data tonight. See this chart? Shows that you left here and drove 80mph over to Pastor Miller's house where you picked up Peggy, were there for 2 minutes, then drove to the dry cleaners off the Parkway which is right next to the Package Store and spent 1/2 hour there, then drove 8 blocks north and stopped Burton's Pharmacy for 2 minutes, then drove 82 mph to the lake where you stayed all evening. When you left the lake and took Peggy home you drove 30mph the whole way. Do you have anything to tell me?

Junior: gulp

35 posted on 07/18/2008 6:08:57 AM PDT by Rebelbase (Black dogs and bacon bombs.)
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To: tiger-one

One time I had a cop swing around from the opposite bound lane to stop me. Had me going 80. the interesting thing was I was doing about 72-73... while the car that just passed me on the left was doing about 80.


36 posted on 07/18/2008 6:18:31 AM PDT by Bogey78O (Don't call them jihadis. Call them irhabis. Tick them off, don't entertain their delusion.)
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To: tiger-one
Your statement is wrong. The tuning forks do not calibrate the unit, only verifies it is operating within specs.

I've always wondered about tuning forks. Since a tuning fork vibrating at a certain frequency causes the radar to display a certain speed, couldn't a really loud stereo give a false reading? I mean vibration is vibration, right?

37 posted on 07/18/2008 6:34:44 AM PDT by BlueMondaySkipper (Involuntarily subsidizing the parasite class since 1981)
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To: tiger-one; All

Grow a clue, will ya?

http://www.pacode.com/secure/data/067/chapter105/s105.15.html

Just one of many, many such documents.


38 posted on 07/18/2008 7:01:16 AM PDT by xcamel (Being on the wrong track means the unintended consequences express train doesnt kill you going by)
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To: xcamel
Read it, nothing about using a tuning fork to calibrate the radar unit, which is in your statement.

From the link,

(iv) Adjust square wave output of function generator, to switching level of pin diode modulator. While observing frequency counter, adjust frequency of function generator so that device being tested indicates 55 mph. (v) Slowly increase attenuation of microwave variable attenuator, until speed reading of 55 mph of device being tested becomes erratic. (vi) Readjust position of device for maximum coupling.

You may be able to read, but you don't understand what you are reading.

BYE

39 posted on 07/18/2008 8:34:48 AM PDT by tiger-one (The night has a thousand eyes)
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To: BlueMondaySkipper
The TF’s are physically designed to vibrate at the designed Freq, when placed in front of the antenna to unit “reads” speed in MPH. Your observation is correct about vibration, this was common with famous Crown Vic when the heater fan was turned on high, the radar would not read actual speed it read crap. I had a cruiser where this occurred, correction was to run the fan a lower speed or not at all.
40 posted on 07/18/2008 8:41:36 AM PDT by tiger-one (The night has a thousand eyes)
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To: Bogey78O

No body is perfect. Because there are so many targets out there, I never guessed which one was the offender. That said after you have run radar for a few months you get a feeling for how fast a car is going by a visual, your statement, “a car going about 80” is about as accurate as it gets. Could have been 85, 78 etc. Then there the things which effect the speedo...rear tire size, bad speedo etc.


41 posted on 07/18/2008 8:49:05 AM PDT by tiger-one (The night has a thousand eyes)
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To: tiger-one
The TF’s are physically designed to vibrate at the designed Freq, when placed in front of the antenna to unit “reads” speed in MPH.

I had a cruiser where this occurred, correction was to run the fan a lower speed or not at all.

Looking at this from the speeder's perspective, you could potentially blast a loud noise, rendering the radar unusable.

42 posted on 07/18/2008 8:52:34 AM PDT by BlueMondaySkipper (Involuntarily subsidizing the parasite class since 1981)
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To: Does so
'Seems like a lot of trouble gone to for ONE ticket. This 18-y-o needs watching.

Tell me you're not serious. Please.

43 posted on 07/18/2008 9:05:43 AM PDT by Fundamentally Fair (If given a choice between a POW and a POS, I'll take the POW.)
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To: Lloyd227
I have 4 sons, 17 to 25 years old now and I have seen DAILY problems with both local and state LEOs who seem to enjoy nothing more than hassling a punk kid to remind the kid who has the power.

I don't know if this is a common thing, but by 14 year old boys and 19 year old girl have had several similar experiences of late.

44 posted on 07/18/2008 9:14:07 AM PDT by Fundamentally Fair (If given a choice between a POW and a POS, I'll take the POW.)
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To: BlueMondaySkipper

I don’t think it was the fans noise as much as the fan being in the area of the antenna, interrupting the transmit and or the received signal.


45 posted on 07/18/2008 9:39:24 AM PDT by tiger-one (The night has a thousand eyes)
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