Posted on 07/19/2008 3:01:48 PM PDT by neverdem
The Chinese Communist leaders would like the rest of the world to believe that China is a unique historical and economic case. Are we to understand China based on some universal rules of human evolution? Or should we share a Sinocentric interpretation of everything that happens in this supposedly different civilization? It seems to me that China is, of course, different, as any nation is, but she does follow a well-known cycle which already took place in the West. Thus, Alexis de Tocqueville could be more relevant today to understand where China stands than Confucius.
In "The Ancien Régime and the Revolution" (1856), the book that followed “Democracy in America," Tocqueville explained how the French became more hostile to their monarchy as their prosperity and freedom increased. He rightly described this paradox as a cycle of rising expectations. When the French were poor, oppressed and hopeless, they would remain quiet, except for some local rebellions here and there, and they would support the king.
Toward the late 18th century, increased prosperity and a more tolerant regime made the French restless; when the people start tasting freedom, they do not tolerate any more restrictions.
This could very well be the case in China today.
As we know, the Communist Party argues that its political monopoly and enlightened despotism is the reason for China’s relative new wealth. It is also true that the Chinese are more free today than they were during the Mao Zedong regime: thousands of dissidents are in jail, but this cannot be compared with the past laogai. It is now tolerated to express individual opinions in China, even to criticize the Party, as long you do not create an anti-Party organization.
Non-Chinese observers familiar with China often conclude that the Chinese never had it better; therefore, stability and...
(Excerpt) Read more at feer.com ...
Without the U.S. buying their products their economy would be as it was before, pre-agrarian.
"Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached." - Manuel II Palelologus
You didn't abandon communism, it is still your government. As far as opium goes, you guys had the opium poppy, not the west.Yes, the west screwed over China but during WWII and before that the US tried to help, and did help, China. You guys chose to ignore us adopt Mao Tse Tung as your all powerful leader. You still have communism even though some of your government have adopted free enterprise most of your country is ruled with an iron fist. Cry to someone else not to a country that knows what it is like to be free, really fee. -
"Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached." - Manuel II Palelologus
Also, Asia has always been group oriented, compared to the west, which is more individual oriented. Both can have democracies, but sometimes when we criticize Asians, we are aiming at their group oriented culture, rather than communism. There is nothing wrong with having a group oriented culture, and Chinese value it.
I do think China, and the communist party in China, is in a precarious state right now. But there will be no Martin Luther King, Jr. to rise up and form a new party. Change will happen in accordance with their group oriented culture, which to me means strikes, mass protests, and riots.
The election process is a sham, like in the article, and there is massive corruption in the party at all levels. Democracy will happen first in "recall" elections against corrupt party members, better known as riots. When the threat of violence against corruption becomes real, the party will become frightened enough to institutionalize an election process, within the communist party. Having multiple parties will take a lot longer.
...and through it all, the market build up, the new cities, the three rivers dam, Tiananmen remains unresolved (for now). Don’t revel in the new China too hard, you’ve miles to go before your through...rocky, rocky miles.
"Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached." - Manuel II Palelologus
Nice cogent reply. So what you are saying, and correct me if I am wrong, that the government is moving toward freedom but many of the people are not because they are not used to being individuals. Is that correct?
China and Asia has always been group oriented...hmmm, sounds like overseers in Georgia describing Africans on the plantations of the old south. Any people enslaved for hundreds of years will appear “group oriented”. Once the taste of personal freedom is on their lips, the rights of man will grow each person into a free thinking individual. When you say group oriented, you play into the stereo type westerners have created for Asians who have studied among us in U. S. graduate schools: lack of creativity, cheat in groups, share homework, no original thought...etc. I know deep down that this doesn’t need to be true.
"Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached." - Manuel II Palelologus
This is the best case, and IMO unlikely simply because of China's sheer size.
Worst case is China will revert back to its historical fractured condition. Some believe this is more likely, as China never has been as unified as they like the world to think they are. How else could the party bring in farm boys from another region to joyously shoot up city kids in Tiananmen Square?
The spectre of democracy haunts China, but not how westerners suspect.
I enjoy pointing out that the democratic revolution’s biggest selling point is neither liberty or freedom, as most westerners think. Instead, it is efficiency. Liberty and freedom are the pleasant side effects of efficiency, but efficiency is what persuades everyone that democracy is better.
Democracy sells itself across the board, to prince and peasant, with a simple idea: this is a better way of doing things than how we are doing them now.
As such it is as evolutionary as using the abstract of mathematics to work with numbers, instead of just counting on your fingers. Once the concept of mathematics is known, only the truly stubborn persist in trying to do things the old way—the inferior way—and everybody knows it.
So what happens to China? To start with, the genie is out of the bottle. Not from the Tiananmen Square disaster, but from something almost idiotic. TV game shows. Broadcast across China, they showed the simple idea of *voting*, the essence of democracy. And that was all that needed to happen.
Quickly, when the local, lowest level communist party official rounded up a dozen peasant farmers to issue them their orders, which were as poorly thought out as usual, and even the farmers knew it, someone chimed in, “Hey! Let’s *vote* on it!”
Instantly, it was obvious to all, that they, as the farmers, knew more about farming than the little guy trying to order them around. But importantly, they *didn’t* want to tell him to go to Hell. They *wanted* to do their job, but in the right way. The better way that they knew, and he didn’t.
And this is the *power* of democracy. Soon, even the low level communist leader realized that *everybody* wins, including him, if they do their job well. It is better that they do it well than they do it wrong, just because he says so. And by doing better, *he* looks good to his bosses as well.
Now granted, some of the low level bosses care more that everybody just obeys, and tell the voters to shut up. But that pleasure is strongly dampened when he discovers that his farmers are dead last, because they are doing it wrong, because he doesn’t know as much about farming as they do.
So what does this mean at the regional and national scale in China?
If you were to conduct an honest poll of the Chinese people, you would discover that for the most part, they *like* their central government. To a great extent it does give them what they want. However, both the regional and local governments do not. They fail so miserably that China has about an average of 30,000 riots every year.
Not rioting against the central government. Often they are protests to let the central government know that the regional and local governments are not obeying the law. They desperately want their regional and local governments to obey the national law.
They want the regional and local governments to be efficient.
Much of what westerners dislike about China, its authoritarianism, is not offensive to the Chinese people. In fact, most support it. Freedom and liberty hold less attraction to them than law and order.
But they are terribly upset that part of the government hierarchy needs to be replaced, because it is rotten. And this is the revolutionary part of democracy. The pressure is building in China for democracy from the ground up, as the way to defeat corruption, criminal behavior, and inefficiency that is rife in lower level government.
The big problem is that the central government sees the rioting as a threat to it, even when the placards call to the central government for help. The great irony of democracy is that people generally support their government, and if anything, are slightly more conservative than are their leaders.
Eventually, democracy at the very lowest level will start working its way up the government hierarchy. Because it is so obviously a better way, and the obstinate opposed to it are not good leaders, are corrupt, and would likely be removed from office if the central government knew how worthless they are.
And when all the lower levels of government are democratized, and the people are generally happy with the results, the communist party may even decide to go with the flow and split itself in two, just so there is some healthy competition to keep the government fresh. To keep the best ideas running things.
"Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached." - Manuel II Palelologus
I am really proud of how China is poisoning its own people, our pets, African bound medicine, our people, is in full cooperation with all the dictators in the world, props up Pyongyang, helps Mugabe thugs in torturing, raping and killing opponents , sells weapons to the Jihadist, Darfur,The Great Famine, The Big Leap Backward, inserting horsehair straws into Chinese dissident’s urethas, forced abortions, freely murdering Tibetans, killing off every endangered species on the planet because the entire race apparently suffers from micro phallus syndrome, or is impotent.Thats the Short List.
China is freakin swell. I’d be proud too if I was Chinese.
But not if I was an American of Chinese extract.
My Scotch Irish cousins aren’t doing any of the above,.. and seeking to dominate the world in a Neo Marxist/ Scourge of the earth way ain’t their gig either. So I don’t feel compelled to defend their actions.
Hope the Olympics are as successful as Tiananmen square worked out for the guy in front of the Tank.
"Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached." - Manuel II Palelologus
My opinions are not preconcieved or from a distance. I work with asians every day, they are my friends, colleagues, and bosses. While some of these have lived here a long time, most have not, or have only lived in Asia. The opinions I am sharing are learned over several years of being close with them, not rash judgements, or from tv.
Once the taste of personal freedom is on their lips, the rights of man will grow each person into a free thinking individual.
Free thinking individuals will still filter things though their culture. Preferences, goals, desires are also filtered through their culture. Yes they will be free, but that will not turn them into western Americans. It will turn them into free Chinese.
Very insightful post, in fact more spot on and insightful than the article.
When are those 2 billion sheep gonna kick off the yoke?
btt
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