Skip to comments.Man opens fire inside Knoxville church; at least six people shot
Posted on 07/27/2008 8:43:01 AM PDT by 2nd amendment mama
click here to read article
He looked like bad guy. Kemper said.
Sounds like a "Republican".
Well the police are having a press conference now in Knoxville. The Knoxville police have recovered a letter in which the alleged shooter at the Tennessee Valley Unitarian Universalist Church, Jim Adkisson, says that he was angry and upset that he was unable to obtain a job. He blamed the “liberal movement”.
A police spokesman said that the shooter expressed his “hatred for the liberal movement,” according to a 4-page letter found by the police in the shooter’s car. He expected to be killed by the police.
He was a former member of the 101st Airborne and had just been eliminated from food stamps. The 12-gauge shotgun used in this terrorist act was recovered by police. The shooter had 76 rounds which were recovered. He used three. He got it into the building by putting it in a guitar case and telling the greeters at the door that he was there as part of the show (how did he know that?)
The guy (who was apparently an officer of the “Church”) who was killed stepped in front of Atkinson and spread his arms as the shooter raise the shotgun aiming at the kids. Got the blast full in the chest but probably saved a life.
Three shots, two kills. Definitely Airborne training.
So, I wouldn't be so sure about that statement of yours. God will judge them, and he knows their hearts. I don't think any of us are qualified.
I heard that it was a “progressive church” that promoted homosexuality...and that figured into the reasoning of the shooter.
The police are investigating this incident as a hate crime. This does not fit the circumstances. If they investigate as a terror attack they would have a much better fit.
Mall brawl gang-related, mall evacuated
(Gang riots - North Carolina up to 300 involved)
WRAL.com | 7/27/08 | Anne Johnson/WRAL
Posted on 07/28/2008 8:00:00 AM PDT by dragnet2
Yeah that was why I called him a “terrorist” - though who is he representing? People kicked off of food stamps?
Is so, he was in the wrong church. In this "worship service" a children's program was presenting a scene from "Annie" (presumably the musical based on Little Orphan Annie and not "Annie Hall", but with a Universalist Unitarian church you can't necessarily be too sure.)
The gunman's motive is not yet known. The church, like many other Unitarian Universalist churches, promotes progressive social work, such as desegregation and fighting for the rights of women and gays. The Knoxville congregation has provided sanctuary for political refugees, fed the homeless and founded a chapter of the American Civil Liberties Union, according to its Web site.
what an awful, awful thing to say. Ridiculous.
Not in Knoxville!
As a UU church, it probably is a "gun-free" church -- even if the local community would be tolerant of guns.
Really? What was so aweful and ridiculous about it?
2004. San Francisco. Two Christian Missionaries, a young hetro Christian couple about to be married - shot on the beach in their sleep for their Christian beliefs by Left Wing Terrorists. Repeat loudly and often.
Those were where the first shots of the next civil war were fired, and Waco, and Ruby Ridge, etc. Liberal fascists have a long history of targeting those who aren’t “one of them”.
Awful maybe, but definitely true.
“New”..? Founded in 1774.
OK, so Joseph Goebbels shields Adolph Hitler from an assassin's bullet, does that mean he's going to heaven?
I was good friends with some Unitarians when I was a teenager. There are fine people everywhere. I think that for most people, what you could call "ideology" is only about 15-20% of their personality.
Where did I get that number? Out of thin air.
Nevertheless, people are people first and always: they are never just walking ideologies.
Just shielding someone from attack doesn’t gain you entrance into the Kingdom of Heaven.
One has to ask....how the hell do you know?
Wow! I had not heard about that - shows you how our media keeps this sort of stuff out of the public’s eye. EVERYONE heard about Harvey Milk. Do you have a link?
The Mainstream Media is spinning this story as a “hate crime” against this church because of their liberal, pro-homosexual beliefs.....
How are they “spinning” as such? In this case it is. He chose that church as his target because of their beliefs.
Like I said, I’m not qualified to judge that. But God is. I leave what is God’s to God.
Agree. But do the Unitarians typically support the RKBA, the Death Penalty, and the right to self-defense?
Generally, my perception is that they're more often the fuzzy leftist sort, and prone to be against such things.
That might be just a Left Coast anomally, as I've no familiarity with the UU's at any "official" level, but that's my perception.
I guess I tend to believe that when Jesus says “only through me”, His mercy and benevolence extends that to those who act as Jesus would, regardless of their particular protestation of faith.
In my view, a Unitarian whose last act is to shield a child from a bullet is a likelier candidate for heaven than a devout protestant who lives ignobly, yet is a true believer on his comfortable deathbed.
not comparable. We’re talking about shielding children here.
And the God I believe in doesn’t save selfish Christians with deathbed confessions, while damning Mahatma Gandhi simply for being a Hindu.
Those who fear God and act morally are deserving of God’s love. Those who trust in the artifice of Man and in earthly possessions are not.
No one is "deserving of God's love". We are all deserving of his judgment.
Yet doesn’t God continue to love us, no matter how we sin? It is the sin that pains Him because it separates us from Him. He is always waiting for the Prodigal to repent and come home - and the Prodigal didn’t have to pass a test or trial or anything else to prove himself.
God always love us. It is our sin that separates us from Him - not His will or rejection.
1 John 4:19 - "We love him, because he first loved us." (KJV)
God is actively working in the prodigal to bring him home, not just waiting for him to return. It is the work of the Holy Spirit that causes us to desire Him, even before we come to Him in faith. Without the work of the Holy Spirit our desire is to ourselves and our own methods of justification. Once the Holy Spirit convinces us of our need for Him then we can come to Him freely through the blood of Christ.
Not as individuals I'm sure. But they, as a church, do work to get the laws changed to force their "ideology" into law. They can do that, being left wingers, conservatives are barred by "separation of church and state" [/s
Some of their "Spiritual beliefs" from their own website.
We also see that current laws do not adequately protect all vulnerable groups; especially youth; people of color; and/or Bisexual, Gay, Lesbian, and Transgender people. In our effort to create a more equitable and just society for all people, the Unitarian Universalist Association (UUA) encourages Unitarian Universalist congregations to engage in organizing, education, and advocacy toward a corrections system driven by compassionate justice, rather than retribution. Specifically, we oppose the death penalty and support an overhaul of U.S. drug policy, including an end to mandatory minimum sentencing. We support strengthened gun control, effective alternatives to incarceration, dismantling of the for-profit prison industry, support for prisoners' families, and a comprehensive approach to prisoner re-entry, including restoration of voting rights for ex-felons. The UUA also supports collection of hate crimes statistics, and policy which adds sexual orientation, gender, gender identity, and disability to existing federal law regarding hate crimes.
Oh they have it in Tennessee, but the UUC opposes it:
From their website:
The Unitarian Universalist Association of Congregations has been on record since 1961 as opposing capital punishment, and has reaffirmed its position four times since. The first and second principles of Unitarian Universalism summarize the basis of our continued opposition to the death penalty:
We, the member congregations...covenant to affirm and promote the inherent worth and dignity of every person, and justice, equity, and compassion in human relations.
With the victims pleading for leniency, the death penalty would seem extremely unlikely in this case... probably too much to hope that they'd change their position on the issue.
I am a liberal, and spend most of my time on liberal sites. I have heard many conservatives who visit such sites say such things.
Please, for the sake of God, think about what you are saying, think about the hatred that is consuming you. Right now, Iraq is Hell on Earth. Do not bring that Hell to America. Do not speak of civil war, or committing acts of violence against those that disagree with you. We on the Left are frightened, because we have been hearing such talk for a long time, and now someone has finally acted on it. We do not think that he will be the last, and we fear deeply for America's future.
Our country is deeply divided, and madness festers on both sides. Some (though thankfully not many) on my side of the divide are so filled with hatred that they have deluded themselves into thinking that our own government ordered the 9/11 attacks. Some (though I pray to God that their numbers are few) on your side of the divide are so filled with hatred that they are willing to kill, and now the killing has started.
Although the Left is in fact considerably more pro-gun than most people, Left or Right, realize, liberals do not generally view violence as a way to solve problems. For example, most of us believe that attacking Iran would create more problems than it would solve, that it is wrong to kill criminals, even murderers, that in most cases diplomacy and sanctions should be used rather than military might. Whether we are right or wrong on these issues is irrelevant, the point is that this is what we believe. If a person on the Left were to suggest violence against the Right, the response from the rest would be swift, one sided, and absolute. We protect you from our crazies.
Please, let this tragedy be a wakeup call. Look at yourselves, look at your hatred, see how it blinds you. To think that the non-violent Left, which opposes major firepower being in civilian hands, which has taken numerous steps to deny itself weaponry (as with the DC handgun ban), is plotting a civil war is pure lunacy. To act on such a belief is nothing short of national suicide.
Please, in the Name of God, I beg you: clean up your own house. Rein in your lunatics. A country in which one half fears the other half is not truly free.
America is mighty; it can be defeated only by itself.
The future of our country is in your hands.
Calm down, you are freaking out about how FTL is posting about the usual double standards of the Media when reporting crime.
Anyways, my feeling on this guy is that he had deranged postal worker syndrome after getting denied other people’s money. Just like the shooter at that one mall, something snapped and getting desperate he used the same ugly feelings that gave him gubmit drug withdrawal syndrome and started shooting at people in a Church because he might’ve been Socially Conservative(as the hating of homosexuality argument was) or he wanted to take his anger out at somebody which is typical of groups of people stoned on gubmit drugs. Perhaps he meant the New Left, in his motive, which is more concerned about the Environment and special groupings than about his welfare. Who knows? Frankly who cares, he is still a few marbles shy of Chinese Checkers.
I’ll tell you upfront(and you can write this on a Studies of the Right Wing book) that these kinds of guys will probably not be on here, FR and other blog/Right-Wing Discussion boards as most people on here(if not almost all) are not mental cases. Eccentric, some of them are, but not nuts like this gunman was. I believe in a world where the Federal Government takes its pieces and makes it become privatized, but I will not walk into a government department and start shooting at people. In fact guns are advocated, on this board, in terms of self-defense and by those who feel that somebody holds a tyrannical grip over them(I know that there are more reasons).
Regardless of the theology utilized by the Unitarians, that doesn’t dignify a nut to act like the rash of shootings that the Media always trumpets. Thankfully only two people died. If there is any hope, the third death should be used on the gunman. Much like the JDL bomber and the guy who shot the Abortion doctor, I don’t find this guy to be dignifiable of life, or as part of my ideological/theological kin.
There is a place where he will go, and hell has no political prejudices.
I hope that that settles it. Calm down and read a book. I know that you are not a troll, but calm down. To think of this guy as being some legitimate calling to arms for some secret Right-Wing death beast movement is hysteria.
Take my advice: Get ready to duck!
Wow, your god sucks. My God practices unconditional love on all his children. We decide to accept or reject it.
My God exists. Not sure about yours.
No, your god, doesn’t exist. Well maybe in your mind. But in reality, your god doesn’t exist. There is only one true God and he loves everybody. Your god is some spiteful, insecure thing.
Not really. We all deserve His judgment, but He has extended His grace to those that will come to him through the atoning work of his son. None of us deserve his love merely by being human. Our nature will always strive against His. God's love is extended to all, but his salvation is not.
Seems this guy had a warped grudge with this church as one of his Ex's had attended it before. Even more strange was although he had obvious special training he used a shotgun holding just 3 shells. At first I thought the witness accounts may have missed hearing some of them but it was three shots. That's how they took him down because he was reloading and had about 70 more rounds. It was a sawed off too according to police press reports. That explains 6 hits most of them life threatening.
To bad it takes so long for justice to run it's course. This man will die of old age before facing what is likely to be his given sentence. The church may be liberal but this neck of the woods is majority Conservative.
“Sounds like a Republican.”
You think, Republicans wear jeans to church, yell obscenities, and shoot innocent people?
“This is a symptom of a culture that feels free to spew venomous hatred and bigotry against people of faith.”
Too much venomous hatred and bigotry being spewed these days, not just by liberals.
Sawed off or just short? With a semi auto, at leas a gas operated one as most are (not all though) you can't saw it off too much or the action won't work. You'd be safe as long as you didn't cut it down shorter than the forward hand guard or magazine tube. The length of the barrel doesn't really affect the spread of the shot much, if any. It's the choke, or lack thereof, that does that. Most short barreled shotguns, even the most "legal" 18.5" barrels (like mine), have a 'cylinder' choke, which means no constriction at all, same as you'd get by sawing off the barrel. Even my 24" barreled 'bird gun', has a 'cylinder' choke tube available, although all I've got is 'improved cylinder', 'modified' and 'full', don't think I've ever used the 'full' though. The short one doesn't have interchangeable tubes so you are stuck with what it came with, but for 'serious social purposes', 'cylinder' is fine. OTOH, I once hunted with a guy who had a Remington 870 with an 18.5 or 20 inch barrel with interchangeable choke tubes, who used it for bird hunting, just by installing the appropriate tube. (OTOH, another hunter in the group asked him if he was going to shoot pheasants or rob a bank with it. IIRC, he shot pheasants with it, at least one. :) )
Meant to add a thought about “sawed off” perhaps applying to the stock as well as perhaps the barrel. As you most likely know, overall length is restricted by the National Firearms Act, as well as barrel length. (to 26” and 18” respectively for shotguns, 16” barrels for rifles).
Owen said Adkisson concealed the shotgun in a guitar case when he entered the sanctuary, where children were performing the musical, "Annie Jr." Owen said Adkisson didn't say anything before discharging three rounds from the shotgun, which had a shortened barrel.
Because the semiautomatic weapon holds three shells, Adkisson had to reload after the initial attack. That's when several church members grabbed Adkisson and grappled for control of the shotgun. They overpowered him and tied him with belts face down on the floor, apparently disrupting Adkisson's attack plans.
"We found 76 shotgun shells," Owen said. The additional shells were in a black leather bag Adkisson had carried along with the guitar case.
"He expected to be shooting people until police arrived and he fully expected to be killed by those responding police," the chief said.
An article at WBIR also stated that while he *was* in the airborne back in the 74-77 time frame, he was a helicopter mechanic, not line infantryman, let alone something "special". he also only made it to E-2 in those 3 years, which doesn't say much even during that time frame. But, the model 48 which was a version of the 11-48 did only hold 2 rounds in the magazine, because the magazine was modified from that of the 11-48, which held 5 rounds. Glad
Glad he didn't pick up an 11-48 instead. That would have doubled the number of shots available from 3 to 6, before reloading was required.
Thanks for explaining the weapon. It makes more sense now. One question though. Since this wasn't gas operated was it actually a true semi or a pump?
Make that '60. ~'68 or '69 for the 11-48 version.