Posted on 07/27/2008 7:16:35 PM PDT by BlackVeil
(NECN/ABC) - A second person has died as a result of the church shooting in Tennessee, 61-year-old Linda Kraeger, who passed away several hours later in a hospital.
At the time of the shooting, church members were watching a children's production of "Annie."
Eyewitnesses say one of those killed -- 60-year-old Greg McKendry -- jumped in front of the gunman's bullet to protect other parishioners.
Churchgoers quickly tackled the gunman and held him until police arrived.
There were about 200 people in the church at the time of the shooting.
The shooter, Jim D. Adkisson, is being charged with first degree murder and is held on $1 million bond.
Absolutely nothing. Bingo.
Seriously, this is my brother's church, and I grive for him in more ways than one. This feels like the Devil's own Riechstag Fire. Demons drive this crackpot to attack an innocent but deluded n on-church, and you bet, this is somehow going to be blamed on the Christians. (My brother noted proudly that they had just made a big deal of putting up 'Gay Friendly' signs outside their church.)
I have to disagree. That just absolves this guy of repsonsibility.
The sad truth is, we humans do not need anyone to control us and make us commit horrible acts.
Thanks.
Exactly.
There's more than enough fuel for the moral fire - fallen mankind is involved in the same rebellion against God as Satan and his fallen angels (demons). Sometimes the evil one provides a spark, though.
Humans will spend eternity somewhere - either in God's presence or outside of God's presence with Satan and his followers.
Just had a thought - did you have a problem with the content or was it the way/where it was presented?
I don't think demonic possession absolves the possessed from responsibility. There is the subjugation of the will to the evil spirit.
Nevertheless, I think you may have a point and that is we cannot give in to describing this act as anything that shifts blame away from the perpetrator. When I use the term "demonic possession" it is very vague and conjures, most likely, many different meanings. Sorry for any confusion and I think your point is sharp and valid.
My church is friendly to ANYONE who walks in the door; gay, straight, adulterer, thief, or politician. God (and my church) will take you just as you are, but he doesn’t want you to stay that way.
“Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.” — John 14:6
However, if there is no greater love than to lay down one's life for a friend, then it is at least equal to love of Christ. Combine those two and it appears that Christ may choose those who lay down their life for another.
Who knows what happens in that last split second of life?
I do have problems with their doctrine. I have problems with virtually all the doctrines of all the denominations of Christendom, for that matter. Nevertheless, the thread was one for expressing prayers and condolences for our neighbors, the ones we are supposed to love just like we love ourselves. I think your remarks were poorly chosen, and had precisely the opposite effect you might hope they would have on someone visiting the thread.
There are so many threads on this forum where people can let it rip and people, while they might be put off, are not so incredibly turned off by a comment like yours. I personally would not ever put it the way you would because I am too interested in winning people to my way of thinking and disinterested in galvanizing people into a defensive position.
But, it is a free country and free speech extends to these threads...
I smell some C.S. Lewis in that comment.
C.S. Lewis was a genius with words.
So you don’t have an objective issue with the doctrinal content of what I said, just a subjective issue as to how/when it was said.
Fair enough.
Thanks for the critique.
On the other hand the father could tell the daughter she’s beautiful, define all the ways to measure beauty, that beauty is in the eye of the beholder and so on and so forth.
Frankly, a father that sees his daughter as being ugly would seem weird to me, even if she was genuinely ugly.
Isn’t it funny how people see things differently?
Just checked you locale. I feel safer here now {I live in the next county north of Knoxville} than I did driving through Jersey, NYC, and yes even your state 25 years ago. No place is immune in these times not even my rural community.
About 25 years ago some punks axed up a mans wife and daughter. This was not in Knoxville BTW but a quiet community in the next county. About 10 years ago on the steps of a church a mile from my home a man was found sitting there dead. It seems someone wanted his Social Security Checked, killed him a few miles away, and dumped him there. I think it was the man who's family got axed that found him.
As for where the two who were car jacked were murdered? That neignborhood has been rough since I was a kid. Daytime your reasonably safe in the business area but night time be very, very, careful. I worked in a 7/11 as a night clerk in an adjoing neighborhood caklled Whittle Springs 18 years ago and I carried even then. BTW at least two of the dirt bags who did it weren't even from East Tennessee.
I remember when Knoxville's streets downtown were safe at night. I walked an area anyone who knows about it will say is not a good idea now. From the movie houses on Gay Street to the phone company on Magnolia about 8-9:00 pm but that was in the early 1970's. In the early 1970's I could also as a kid camp out alone on Norris Lake with a boat and not have to worry about my safety. Today that place is a gated and patrolled campground. A motor cycle gang was largely responsible for causing that.
Reality of these times is a person is wise to be prepared to defend themselves and their family anywhere they go in any state or community. This wasn't the first murder aimed at church goers. A family was killed east of Knoxville maybe 15 years ago and only a small boy survived. The families crime was being Jehovah Witnesses on their way home from a gathering. It was a car jacking too. The punks who did it were kids from Kentucky and looked quite Satanic. This mayhem can happen anywhere in the nation in anyones community.
Believe it or not the community churches where this happened yesterday pulled together and opened their hands to help. The community it happened in is a high dollar residential real estate location. It has been such for as long as I can remember. This man was bent on killing people and that church was in a very high traffic area. My guess is he saw the signs another posted mentioned. But about a third of the churches in that area have the same open door policy and political leanings as well. Some of that is fueled by the fact it is a mile from the UT campus.
I've been to a lot of places in my life. The worse place was Salvador Brazil. Six year old street orphans were known to rob you and were so hardened they were capable of killing you or slicing your tendon's in your ankle where they placed the switchblade. I'll take East Tennessee anyday.
Of course, any loving father would do just that.
Frankly, a father that sees his daughter as being ugly would seem weird to me, even if she was genuinely ugly.
The loving father would not see his daughter as ugly, but the father of an ugly daughter would also be wise enough to know that is how others will see her. When the daughter says, "Am I ugly?" he will quickly say "No! I know that you are beautiful." But she will press and say, "but others make fun of me and say that I am."
That juncture of the conversation is the moment of truth. Does he just blurt out the cold hard facts or does he take exquisite care to build her up and teach her and do everything in his power to help her learn how to be beautiful as she can be both on the inside and the outside. Any loving person knows the answer to that one.
The truth is the cold hard facts have to be given in a loving way to have better success in being accepted IMO.
The accuracy (Truth) is just that, and delivery of truth with compassion is important as well. But there are those occasions when one needs to have their attention captured in a sobering way also!
The smart father would do well to prepare his daughter for the harsh realities of the world WHILE ensuring that the unending blessing’s of Christ will overshadow any earthly experience, good or bad. Not that Christians have it easy, we just realize things tend to come out in the wash, and in that final cycle, the white linens are as fresh and white as is imagineable!
I’d also prefer the truth be told, even if it’s not delivered properly as opposed to not mentioning the truth because it’s too harsh, or poor delivery, or poor timing, etc.
Neither being ideal but with souls at stake, Truth (about Redemption and salvation anyway) trumps delivery!
The truth is more important than the tact in delivering it IMO.
If we took a poll of the angels of heaven, or even of the visitors of this thread (ostensibly those that these righteous posters were wanting to save from wrong thinking), asking them who demonstrated Christ-like love more:
If you miss this one you have not a chance in heaven, imho. All but the most hopelessly self righteous will vote for the foster father. And you know what, I think God has an easier time forgiving his doctrinal error because of his love than forgiving the righteous posters who demonstrate none.
Jesus never ignored sin, and I doubt he would want us to. But he did "hate the sin and love the sinner" as the saying goes. He didn't tell the woman at the well, "you skank! What is wrong with you, you worthless thing!" He did say, "you are forgiven...go and sin no more."
Clearly, "Judge not lest ye be judged" is better expressed as "expect to be judged in the fashion with which you judge others." If you are a practicing Christian, you want to improve and grow in Christ, and to live everyday to a higher standard. You should want to be "course corrected" by those who love you, if it is done gently, lovingly, and with concern for your well-being. And you should show that kind of care in supporting those in your church whom you love, to encourage and support them in becoming all that they can be.
Christ course corrected the adultress at the well, we can all see. He confronted Zachieus the tax collector as to his ways, and that little man renounce his sin and gave the money he stole back to the people. The touchy-feely squishy wishy congregations that think that we should make people feel good about their sins are dead wrong. We shouldn't be cursing sinners as worthless, but we shouldn't be giving them a free pass to go on sinning either.
You are right on the money...I welcome anyone who has a desire to listen to what God thinks is right, and a desire to grow. But "churches" that think "God is LOVE" and end there are going to be very surprised when Christ returns.
You’re either saved or you’re not saved, and there’s but one way to the Father and that is through His Son Jesus Christ.
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