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INNOVATIVE (groundbreaking, breakthrough?) NEW FIREARM!
Boberg Engineering (St. Paul MN ?) ^ | Boberg Engineering

Posted on 07/29/2008 7:23:14 PM PDT by mamelukesabre

A Revolution In Cartridge Feeding

The Boberg XR9 Introducing the world's most powerful 9mm pocket-sized pistol.

Summary

Basically, the XR9 is a pocket pistol with a full length barrel, having the magazine located directly under the chamber. The patent-pending feed mechanism grabs a cartridge from the magazine and delivers it straight into the chamber. This allows the chamber clearance to be significantly less, causing less energy and noise to blast out the back. With this combination, kinetic energy is maximized, and in many cases will exceed the energy produced in full-sized pistols.

Just an FYI to all of you out there that prefer other calibers to 9mm - be patient! The first offering will be in 9mm because it remains highly popular, is relatively inexpensive to practice with, provides a decent round count in the magazine, and delivers a lot of power in many styles of +P. The key point here is that the Boberg XR9 will always provide superior power to any same-sized gun, and many larger guns in any caliber it is offered. Other calibers will be offered pending the success of the 9mm version.

(Excerpt) Read more at bobergengineering.com ...


TOPICS: News/Current Events; Technical
KEYWORDS: banglist; firearms; gunporn; guns; pistol; weapons
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"A lot of comments during the 2008 Shot Show and many from chat rooms has led to the development of the Boberg XR9 Shorty. The second "photo" was generated via Photoshop, and at the time it was not known whether such a configuration would be feasible. Further study has shown that the design is feasible and a prototype will most likely be built soon."

This looks pretty darn cool to me.

Heads up to all the freeper gunnuts, technophiles, and armchair quarterbacks out there.

Let's discuss

1 posted on 07/29/2008 7:23:14 PM PDT by mamelukesabre
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To: mamelukesabre

Cool gun! I have lots of guns, but their site explicitly compares this to the Kel-Tec P38T, which I carry on a regular basis. I like the idea of a gun this small in 9mm (I also carry a Kahr 9mm) but I wonder how weight, recoil and reliability are. I have to say I like my little Kel-Tec, and my wife loves it. Great pocket (literally) pistol. And the KT was cheap. I wonder how much this little gem goes for?


2 posted on 07/29/2008 7:36:24 PM PDT by navyguy (Some days you are the pigeon, some days you are the statue.)
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To: mamelukesabre

I’d buy the shorty in a heartbeat.


3 posted on 07/29/2008 7:36:43 PM PDT by TheZMan (Bitter backwoods east Texan Christian gun clinger with the AC at 72 degrees.)
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To: sig226; yarddog; Nachoman; 1066AD; BenLurkin; Gandalf_The_Gray; calex59; Armedanddangerous; ...

Whaddya think?


4 posted on 07/29/2008 7:38:54 PM PDT by mamelukesabre (Thig crioch air an t-saoghail, ach mairidh gaol 's ceol.)
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To: mamelukesabre

It looks neat! I shot a 9mm Detonics that was very small and it kicked worse than a 45 auto. I wonder how this would be?


5 posted on 07/29/2008 7:43:10 PM PDT by Anti-Bubba182
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To: navyguy

I have a kahr PM9.

I don’t think the boberg guns are past the prototype phase yet. But if they are reliable and not too heavy or too expensive, I’d ditch my kahr for the micro shorty without thinking twice.

You gotta look at the animated video of the action cycling if you haven’t already. I think it’s just absolutely amazing.


6 posted on 07/29/2008 7:44:09 PM PDT by mamelukesabre (Thig crioch air an t-saoghail, ach mairidh gaol 's ceol.)
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To: mamelukesabre

nice looking gun. I have a Beretta 9000 s for my Concealed Carry “between the seat cushion” car gun. This one looks nice but the mechanism looks quite complicated. I do not want complicated. Cleaning could get to be a problem.

The long drawback of the cartridge looks like there are a lot of parts that could go from “SNAFU” to “TARFU” and then to “FUBAR” at a critical moment.


7 posted on 07/29/2008 7:44:15 PM PDT by Michigan Bowhunter (Democrat socialist liberal scumbags.....how did we let this happen!)
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To: mamelukesabre

perfect for summer carry!


8 posted on 07/29/2008 7:46:08 PM PDT by mylife (The Roar Of the Masses Could Be Farts)
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To: mamelukesabre
Not a very attractive gun but I like the idea of a longer barrel in a short pistol.

Although my favorite pistol is the M1911, I would never denigrate the 9mm. It is a powerful high intensity cartridge and with the right ammo will do about anything one wants for a defense cartridge.

9 posted on 07/29/2008 7:46:59 PM PDT by yarddog
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To: mamelukesabre
cute, but i don't understand what makes it more powerful than any other 9mm on the market.
10 posted on 07/29/2008 7:48:32 PM PDT by Chode (American Hedonist -CTHULHU/NYARLATHOTEP'08 = Nothing LESS!!!)
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To: mamelukesabre

Nice pistol, bad website.


11 posted on 07/29/2008 7:49:36 PM PDT by arderkrag (Libertarian Nutcase (Political Compass Coordinates: 9.00, -2.62 - www.politicalcompass.org))
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To: mamelukesabre
Just what we need, another solution in search of a problem.

L

12 posted on 07/29/2008 7:51:46 PM PDT by Lurker (Islam is an insane death cult. Any other aspects are PR to get them within throat-cutting range.)
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To: mamelukesabre
Let's see ... THEN discuss ...


13 posted on 07/29/2008 7:55:13 PM PDT by knarf (I say things that are true ... I have no proof ... but they're true.)
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To: mamelukesabre

Interesting in that this action presents a feasible solution for a clip magazine, Remington, .44 mag carbine.


14 posted on 07/29/2008 7:57:52 PM PDT by Amerigomag
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To: Chode

Because the barrel is longer.

The chamber is DIRECTLY above the top round in the magazine. Any firearm with same length of slide as the boberg will have a barrel shorter by at least the overall length of the cartridge. So the boberg has a power advantage over all other equal length pistols due to the freaky new fangled feeding mechanism that allows for a longer barrel in a shorter slide.

watch the vid

http://bobergengineering.com/video_page.htm


15 posted on 07/29/2008 7:58:09 PM PDT by mamelukesabre (Thig crioch air an t-saoghail, ach mairidh gaol 's ceol.)
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To: knarf

SHades of the PKM.

No thanks

John got it ‘right’ with the 1911....


16 posted on 07/29/2008 8:04:40 PM PDT by ASOC
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To: Amerigomag

Hmmm, I’m not so sure. At first I thought you were really on to something. But after watching the animated vid really closely, it’s not exactly a fixed barrel. THe barrel moves a tiny tiny bit. I think the barrel might rotate also.

On the other hand, the old browning auto-12 shotgun had a barrel that moved, so why not a rifle?


17 posted on 07/29/2008 8:05:49 PM PDT by mamelukesabre (Thig crioch air an t-saoghail, ach mairidh gaol 's ceol.)
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To: mamelukesabre
I have that Kahr as well - sweet little carry gun for when you don't have a lot of room and it's more accurate at 25 meters than anything in its size I've ever tried.

So which one of these would I purchase? Uh...is "both" a good answer? ;-)

18 posted on 07/29/2008 8:07:45 PM PDT by Billthedrill
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To: mamelukesabre

Be glad to try a sample :)


19 posted on 07/29/2008 8:08:30 PM PDT by 1066AD
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To: mamelukesabre
if the article stated "of EQUAL size" it makes sense but all it said is "The Boberg XR9 Introducing the world's most powerful 9mm pocket-sized pistol."

and from the prints, i'm not thrilled about it not having an extractor either.

20 posted on 07/29/2008 8:10:29 PM PDT by Chode (American Hedonist -CTHULHU/NYARLATHOTEP'08 = Nothing LESS!!!)
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To: Billthedrill

“Both” is always a good answer.


21 posted on 07/29/2008 8:16:47 PM PDT by norton
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To: Chode

Look at post 13. It appears to me there is an extractor machined into the slide...not a separate piece with a spring, but just a little hook in the slide.

Maybe. Hard to tell.

The empty appears to be bumped out of the way by the new round.

Or did you mean to say “...not thrilled about it not having an ejector...”?


22 posted on 07/29/2008 8:18:21 PM PDT by mamelukesabre (Thig crioch air an t-saoghail, ach mairidh gaol 's ceol.)
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To: mamelukesabre

btt


23 posted on 07/29/2008 8:26:55 PM PDT by Cacique (quos Deus vult perdere, prius dementat ( Islamia Delenda Est ))
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To: mamelukesabre

Kinda like a bullpup in a pistol............ BTW, no apparent feed ramp.


24 posted on 07/29/2008 8:27:15 PM PDT by umgud
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To: mamelukesabre
i don't see an ejector, so i hope there's something there i missed.

it truly is an innovative design and i hope it works out for them, but i'll have to wait till several thousand production guns are on the market and reviewed before i bet my life on one.

25 posted on 07/29/2008 8:36:24 PM PDT by Chode (American Hedonist -CTHULHU/NYARLATHOTEP'08 = Nothing LESS!!!)
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To: navyguy
I wonder how much this little gem goes for?

There is the key question. I also carry a P3AT (Or a S&W 637, or XD-45 depending). If this thing cost $600+ I'll stay with the Kel-Tec. It also weights twice as much as the P3AT, heck it weighs more that my 12+1 9mm P-11.

It would be more accurately compared to the P-9, a single stack 9mm from Kel-Tec.

26 posted on 07/29/2008 8:36:44 PM PDT by kAcknor ("A pistol! Are you expecting trouble sir?" "No ma'am, were I expecting trouble I'd have a rifle.")
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To: mamelukesabre
I was going to post the schematic of it, but knarf already posted it. It's an interesting idea. There are similarities to lever action rifles and tube fed shotguns.

The biggest problem I perceive is the claw thingie that grabs the cartridge from the magazine and elevates it to feed into the chamber. It grabs the groove and pulls the cartridge from the back of the magazine. The leaf spring at the junction of the tang and the backstrap appears to help elevate the cartridge.

It looks like a rotating barrel lock up, similar to the Beretta 8000 series locked breech handguns. That works, so there's no question about the theory, but did they execute it properly?

The next question is the integrity of the claw thingie. This is not a good way to use steel. The claw has to be a flat piece of steel with a hook at the end. The steel would tend to fail where the hook meets the flat area.

Someone will say that 9mm extractor claws work just fine after 20,000 rounds have been fired, but that comparison is not correct. The slide moves backward with the velocity of the cartridge. The extractor has to extract an empty case, which already has inertia due to recoil. The case is moving backwards under its own force. This part has to move a loaded cartridge which does not have energy due to recoil.

A loaded cartridge has about five times the mass of an empty one. Multiplying forces by factors of five makes a big difference. Then there's the motion, which I am not going to calculate because it's late at night.

I'm interested to see how this turns out. It's certainly not the usual action design, and appears to be worth investigating. It is also noteworthy that if it works, the design could be made to ensure reliable feeding of smaller cartridges into larger chambers a la .38 Special into .357 Magnum. What the heck. They made semi autos for almost eighty years before Sig Sauer perfected them. :)

27 posted on 07/29/2008 8:44:41 PM PDT by sig226 (Real power is not the ability to destroy an enemy. It is the willingness to do it.)
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To: mamelukesabre

The Judge comes to mind ..... .45cal and .410 in a pistol ...


28 posted on 07/29/2008 8:45:49 PM PDT by SkyDancer ("What Our Enemies Couldn't Do Our Politicians Will")
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To: sig226

Yep. I saw the claw thing as a potential weak link too.

But there’s no reason why that claw thing can’t grab a shell from both sides with two really oversized hooks...is there?

But what is that thing way on the back of the slide? Is that an external hammer?


29 posted on 07/29/2008 8:52:13 PM PDT by mamelukesabre (Thig crioch air an t-saoghail, ach mairidh gaol 's ceol.)
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To: sig226

I just found this little footnote at the bottom of the “dynamic modelling” page.

*Designing it was not that hard - optimizing a mechanism that accelerates backward at 2000 g’s was the hard part.


30 posted on 07/29/2008 8:56:25 PM PDT by mamelukesabre (Thig crioch air an t-saoghail, ach mairidh gaol 's ceol.)
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To: mamelukesabre

An external hammer makes sense. There’s not much room for a sear to release a striker like in a Glock. The feeding mechanism is in the way. You could build a sear that reached over the feed area and make it in a U shape, like the 1911 trigger bar. This would make it rigid on both sides, but it would be an expensive part. The hammer is a proven mechanism, and this thing has some radical ideas. If I thought of it, I would want to use established methods wherever I could so that any problems would be easy to isolate.


31 posted on 07/29/2008 9:06:25 PM PDT by sig226 (Real power is not the ability to destroy an enemy. It is the willingness to do it.)
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To: mamelukesabre

If you want a proven pocket 9mm that has been sold for several years to the most discerning buyers, check this out:

www.rohrbaughfirearms.com

Of course, it’s not cheap. But after you empty our wallet, there will be plenty of room in your pocket for a pistol.

But it all depends on what your life is worth.


32 posted on 07/29/2008 9:07:57 PM PDT by Atlas Sneezed (Guns don't kill people, criminals and the governments that create them do.)
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To: Beelzebubba

bfl


33 posted on 07/29/2008 9:13:22 PM PDT by Oshkalaboomboom
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To: mamelukesabre
It's a design concept I've mentally toyed with, and even posted a few times here on FR. As drawn, the slide ends up extending back a fair distance from the grip, so the 'length' savings is not as great as it otherwise might be.

A somewhat different variation I've pondered would be a long-recoil operated pistol, in which the barrel and slide can travel rearward for about the length of a cartridge; after that, the barrel would slide forward, then a cartridge would pop up, and then the slide would push the cartridge into the barrel. When ready to fire, the barrel would be completely forward of the grip, but in 'carry mode' the barrel could be locked rearward.

34 posted on 07/29/2008 9:42:23 PM PDT by supercat
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To: mamelukesabre

Methinks their claims of “higher power and increased kinetic energy” will prove to be greatly exaggerated. Internal ballistics of like cartridges in like chambers tends to be, well, alike. The method of feeding will not have an appreciable effect upon the firing sequence, pressure, etc. The cartridge obdurates and seals to the chamber walls well before peak pressure is reached, so the blurb about escaped gas or pressure is poppycock.

I’m not saying that a shorter action is not a good thing, but their performance claims are bizarre.


35 posted on 07/29/2008 10:00:35 PM PDT by ExpatGator (Extending logic since 1961.)
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To: mamelukesabre

Minor bbl length differences will not achieve the performance increases that they claim.


36 posted on 07/29/2008 10:07:08 PM PDT by ExpatGator (Extending logic since 1961.)
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To: Amerigomag

Are those roller bearings in the slide?


37 posted on 07/29/2008 10:27:57 PM PDT by TheBattman (Vote your conscience, or don't complain about RINOs!)
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To: TheBattman

Never mind...spring


38 posted on 07/29/2008 10:28:25 PM PDT by TheBattman (Vote your conscience, or don't complain about RINOs!)
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To: sig226
Ever seen the old Colt Pocket Nine? Sold it for a couple of years before Kahr got after them for borrowing their barrel locking design a little too closely. External hammer, not a bad little shooter. It's on top and on the right below:

Mine's tucked away for some lucky collector one day...

39 posted on 07/29/2008 10:48:02 PM PDT by Billthedrill
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To: mamelukesabre

Bump for later.


40 posted on 07/29/2008 11:38:03 PM PDT by snowtigger (It ain't what you shoot, it's what you hit...)
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To: ASOC
No thanks

John got it ‘right’ with the 1911....


I was just sort of thinking the same thing. The concept of the pistol is amazing, but my Series 80 Colt is as well. :-) I'll stick with what's proven until it's shown beyond reasonable doubt that what I have is deficient.

45ACP


:-)

Actually, I like what my daughter says. She came up with this little saying one afternoon when we were reloading and she was measuring cases as we were setting up the sizing die for headspacing. She picked up a FMJ bullet, measured it, and thought for a moment, and then said -

The .45ACP is 48 thousandths of an inch from being a fifty!

Then again, a 9mm is only .143 smaller in diameter than .5.

I never really thought it about that way. I rather always thought of ALL pistols as glorified rock throwers. :-) People get "stuck" in fascination with terms like "fifty" and forget that it merely means "fifty one-hundredths of an inch". Big deal. I've been temped to convert over into binary just to freak everybody out so I can say that I have a "110010", which really makes less sense than being enamored with the term "fifty" because there aren't decimals in binary numbers. Some years back, the pistol shooting world was virtually taken over by the 9mm. Old skeptics like Col. Cooper stayed cautiously in the rear while everybody ignored them. Every LE agency in the nation switched over. How many of them have gone back to the .45ACP now?....a LOT. Now granted, I don't see a lot of Colt pistols in holsters, but I think you understand what I'm trying to say.

I remember the last time we all got into a huge heated discussion about the merits and disadvantages of our favorite handgun calibers. I spent some serious time in the reloading manuals as well as researching real world stats, courtesy of people like Col. Jeff Cooper. I came to the conclusion that to argue the merits of 9mm .40S&W, and .45ACP is sort of like arguing about which brand of kitty litter your cat is crapping in.

I've got a friend who's the LEO in charge of CID at a Sheriff's Dept a couple of counties over. He's a former SEAL and owns a small company that teaches people to shoot. They train HRT shooters, air marshals, and knuckle heads like us. :-) He carries a small .380 and I can't even remember what kind it is, but I wouldn't want to be within about 80 feet of him if I were the object of his aggression. He convinced me that consistent and steady practice, combined with building good habits are critical in surviving a gunfight. No amount of technology that is able to pack a slightly longer barrel in a shorter overall package can compensate for a human problem.

Just my opinion of course. :-)
41 posted on 07/30/2008 5:32:04 AM PDT by hiredhand
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To: mamelukesabre
"Is that a Boberg XR9 Shorty in your pocket or are you just glad to see me?"
42 posted on 07/30/2008 5:43:04 AM PDT by Tainan (Talk is cheap. Silence is golden. All I got is brass...lotsa brass.)
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To: umgud

Watch the action video. The feed ramp is the black leaf spring looking thing behind the top cartridge as shown in post 13. The cartridge gets pulled back onto it and then it cams up, lifting the cartridge up to barrel height.


43 posted on 07/30/2008 6:03:40 AM PDT by green iguana (FREE LAZAMATAZ!)
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To: mamelukesabre

Nifty! I’ve been imagining such a design for years, but not being a mechanical engineer didn’t run with it. Glad to see someone actually built one. Now I have to get one...


44 posted on 07/30/2008 9:10:36 AM PDT by ctdonath2 (The average piece of junk is more meaningful than our criticism designating it so. - Ratatouille)
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To: hiredhand

LOL

I like to do the math

230 gr
900 fps
490+ ft lbs of energy
dumped into ‘about’ a half inch.

I like those numbers....


45 posted on 07/30/2008 6:46:44 PM PDT by ASOC
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To: hiredhand
I've been temped to convert over into binary just to freak everybody out so I can say that I have a "110010", which really makes less sense than being enamored with the term "fifty" because there aren't decimals in binary numbers.

No, there's a binary point. A half an inch would be 0.1" in binary; a quarter inch would be 0.01". A value of 0.357" (decimal) would be 0.010110110110 in binary. The big five-o in decimal represents the difference between having a zero or a one in the first digit to the right of the binary point.

46 posted on 07/30/2008 6:54:21 PM PDT by supercat
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To: supercat

Wouldn’t .5 decimal be .101 binary? Sheesh...that makes my head hurt. :-) Where’s the LSB in a binary number with a “point”? I never thought about it to be honest. :-)


47 posted on 07/30/2008 7:03:58 PM PDT by hiredhand
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To: ctdonath2

This is a nice re-application of part of the feed design of the Browning 1919 and M2 machine guns. Instead of a belt that is being stripped, the rounds are stripped back from a magazine.

It’s a real cool idea and I’d love to see one in the flesh so to speak.

Mike


48 posted on 07/30/2008 7:05:42 PM PDT by BCR #226 (The BS stops when the hammer drops.)
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To: ASOC
LOL

I like to do the math

230 gr
900 fps
490+ ft lbs of energy
dumped into ‘about’ a half inch.

I like those numbers....

I know people are just going to think I'm gross. But if I MUST stop another human being by issuing deadly force, bearing in mind that this action of stopping them is probably going to kill them... I don't want to have to watch them squirt blood everywhere from a smaller handgun wound, and cry and shout and thrash around for a couple of minutes before finally dying. I just don't want the mental anguish and aggravation.

That's the main reason I carry a full sized semi-auto (Colt Series 80, .45ACP). It's gross I know, but that's the reason!
49 posted on 07/30/2008 7:11:05 PM PDT by hiredhand
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To: hiredhand
Wouldn’t .5 decimal be .101 binary? Sheesh...that makes my head hurt. :-)

In decimal, the first place to the right of the decimal point is 1/10^1, the second is 1/10^2, the third 1/10^3, etc. In binary, the places are 1/2^1, 1/2^2, 1/2^3, etc. So 357/1000 is roughly 1/4+1/16+1/32+1/128+1/256+1/1024+1/2048 (that's actually 731/2048, or 0.35693359375).

50 posted on 07/30/2008 7:56:04 PM PDT by supercat
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