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The Nature of Glass Remains Anything but Clear
NY Times ^ | July 29, 2008 | KENNETH CHANG

Posted on 08/03/2008 6:56:52 PM PDT by neverdem

It is well known that panes of stained glass in old European churches are thicker at the bottom because glass is a slow-moving liquid that flows downward over centuries.

Well known, but wrong. Medieval stained glass makers were simply unable to make perfectly flat panes, and the windows were just as unevenly thick when new.

The tale contains a grain of truth about glass resembling a liquid, however. The arrangement of atoms and molecules in glass is indistinguishable from that of a liquid. But how can a liquid be as strikingly hard as glass?

“They’re the thickest and gooiest of liquids and the most disordered and structureless of rigid solids,” said Peter Harrowell, a professor of chemistry at the University of Sydney in Australia, speaking of glasses, which can be formed from different raw materials. “They sit right at this really profound sort of puzzle.”

Philip W. Anderson, a Nobel Prize-winning physicist at Princeton, wrote in 1995: “The deepest and most interesting unsolved problem in solid state theory is probably the theory of the nature of glass and the glass transition.”

He added, “This could be the next breakthrough in the coming decade.”

Thirteen years later, scientists still disagree, with some vehemence, about the nature of glass.

Peter G. Wolynes, a professor of chemistry at the University of California, San Diego, thinks he essentially solved the glass problem two decades ago based on ideas of what glass would look like if cooled infinitely slowly. “I think we have a very good constructive theory of that these days,” Dr. Wolynes said. “Many people tell me this is very contentious. I disagree violently with them.”

Others, like Juan P. Garrahan, professor of physics at the University of Nottingham in England, and David Chandler, professor of chemistry at the University of California, Berkeley,...

(Excerpt) Read more at nytimes.com ...


TOPICS: Culture/Society; News/Current Events; Technical
KEYWORDS: chemistry; corningmuseumofglass; glass; godsgravesglyphs; science; windows
Click for pics.

ENIGMA Molten glass being worked into an ornament. Understanding glass could lead to better products and offer headway in other scientific problems.(Mark Interrante)

Glass, Up Close

1 posted on 08/03/2008 6:56:52 PM PDT by neverdem
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To: neverdem; blam; SunkenCiv

of interest? Ping.


2 posted on 08/03/2008 6:58:54 PM PDT by Jet Jaguar (Obama: The presumptuous democratic nominee)
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To: All
(Bloomberg News, top, and Keystone/Corbis)COMPLEX Glass in sheet and molten forms. Glass transition differs from usual phase transition.

Click for pic.

3 posted on 08/03/2008 7:00:30 PM PDT by neverdem (I'm praying for a Divine Intervention.)
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To: neverdem

Interesting article.


4 posted on 08/03/2008 7:06:29 PM PDT by ChildOfThe60s (If you can remember the 60s........you weren't really there)
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To: neverdem
They can tell you what the temperature will be, 25 years from now.
They can tell you all about how the eye and ear evolved.

But glass? Well, they're not really sure about that one. No consensus yet.

5 posted on 08/03/2008 7:25:45 PM PDT by ClearCase_guy (Et si omnes ego non)
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To: neverdem
...if cooled infinitely slowly

When does one detect a drop in temperature, at the end of infinity?

6 posted on 08/03/2008 7:32:42 PM PDT by LoneRangerMassachusetts
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To: neverdem

NYT: “It is well known that panes of stained glass in old European churches are thicker at the bottom because glass is a slow-moving liquid that flows downward over centuries. Well known, but wrong.”

Hmmm. The NY Times writer (or typist) does not cite it but the article is eerily similar to this:

http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physics/General/Glass/glass.html

...which is copyrighted, dated 1996, and starts out: “It is sometimes said that glass in very old churches is thicker at the bottom than at the top because glass is a liquid, and so over several centuries it has flowed towards the bottom. This is not true.”


7 posted on 08/03/2008 7:33:39 PM PDT by 668 - Neighbor of the Beast (Stop the O-bomb.)
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To: neverdem

The New York Times: Outrageous liberal bias, insipid PC drivel, plus the occasional excellent science article.


8 posted on 08/03/2008 7:37:54 PM PDT by TChad
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To: ClearCase_guy

“But glass? Well, they’re not really sure about that one. No consensus yet.”

They ought to put some evolutionists on it - they know everything.


9 posted on 08/03/2008 7:41:42 PM PDT by PetroniusMaximus
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To: Jet Jaguar
You guys need to find the old science fiction stories about “slow glass”.
10 posted on 08/03/2008 7:48:07 PM PDT by nomorelurker (keep flogging them till morale improves)
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To: 668 - Neighbor of the Beast

So you are saying that Baez invented a time machine, traveled to 2008 and plagiarized the New York Times? Whoa nellie!


11 posted on 08/03/2008 7:54:48 PM PDT by bvw
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To: neverdem
"...the arrangement of atoms and molecules in glass is indistinguishable from that of a liquid.."

I thought that glass had more short range order than liquid.

12 posted on 08/03/2008 8:07:50 PM PDT by Paladin2 (Huma for co-president! (it ain't over 'til it's over))
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To: 668 - Neighbor of the Beast

LOL!


13 posted on 08/03/2008 8:22:59 PM PDT by neverdem (I'm praying for a Divine Intervention.)
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To: nomorelurker

I remember that one; read it in the early ‘70’s.


14 posted on 08/03/2008 8:33:56 PM PDT by Steely Tom (Without the second, the rest are just politicians' BS.)
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To: neverdem
Thanks for the post.

David Chandler, mentioned in the article, is scary-smart.

Rumor has it that when he was at Penn, a gag greeting card was circulated with a drawing of a smug-looking dragon on the front, with the obligatory puff of smoke.

The caption on the inside read, "Ha! Ha! I'm David Chandler, and you're not."

Cheers!

15 posted on 08/03/2008 8:46:38 PM PDT by grey_whiskers (The opinions are solely those of the author and are subject to change without notice.)
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To: Soliton; Myrddin; Right Wing Professor; Robert A. Cook, PE; Wonder Warthog; lepton; ...
Like, *PING*, dudes.

Cheers!

16 posted on 08/03/2008 8:48:36 PM PDT by grey_whiskers (The opinions are solely those of the author and are subject to change without notice.)
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To: 668 - Neighbor of the Beast
Excellent article.

(Sound of grey_whiskers purring)

Cheers!

17 posted on 08/03/2008 8:50:43 PM PDT by grey_whiskers (The opinions are solely those of the author and are subject to change without notice.)
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To: grey_whiskers

Super cooled liquid. Studied it in college in the 70’s. Old lead glass windows are thicker on the bottom because glass flows, just VERY slowly.


18 posted on 08/03/2008 8:56:30 PM PDT by Soliton (> 100)
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To: neverdem
Image and video hosting by TinyPic

19 posted on 08/03/2008 9:04:39 PM PDT by Inyo-Mono (If you don't want people to get your goat, don't tell them where it's tied.)
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To: Soliton
Please read the prior posts in this thread. :-)

Cheers!

20 posted on 08/03/2008 9:08:33 PM PDT by grey_whiskers (The opinions are solely those of the author and are subject to change without notice.)
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To: LoneRangerMassachusetts

Should be ready at quarter past infinity.


21 posted on 08/03/2008 9:15:38 PM PDT by big bad easter bunny (I live so far beyond my means it could be said we live apart.)
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To: neverdem

Bump for Monday reading.


22 posted on 08/03/2008 10:07:01 PM PDT by SuziQ
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To: neverdem; nomorelurker

I loved those “slow glass” sci-fi stories.

Glass fascinates me. Molten glass especially.

I occasionally play with glass in the kiln & furnace. :)


23 posted on 08/03/2008 10:40:33 PM PDT by TxGrandMom
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To: Jet Jaguar; blam; StayAt HomeMother; Ernest_at_the_Beach; 1ofmanyfree; 21twelve; 24Karet; ...

· join list or digest · view topics · view or post blog · bookmark · post a topic ·

 
Gods
Graves
Glyphs
Thanks Jet Jaguar and neverdem. Middle Ages, Corning Museum of Glass, other reasons for the ping.
Glass Does Not Flow. Except in Space?
To all -- please ping me to other topics which are appropriate for the GGG list.
GGG managers are SunkenCiv, StayAt HomeMother, and Ernest_at_the_Beach
 

· Google · Archaeologica · ArchaeoBlog · Archaeology magazine · Biblical Archaeology Society ·
· Mirabilis · Texas AM Anthropology News · Yahoo Anthro & Archaeo ·
· History or Science & Nature Podcasts · Excerpt, or Link only? · cgk's list of ping lists ·


24 posted on 08/03/2008 10:58:54 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (https://secure.freerepublic.com/donate/_________________________Profile updated Friday, May 30, 2008)
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To: nomorelurker
You guys need to find the old science fiction stories about “slow glass”.

The Light of Other Days? Classic!

25 posted on 08/03/2008 11:09:46 PM PDT by null and void (Barack Obama - International Man of Mystery...)
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To: nomorelurker
You guys need to find the old science fiction stories about “slow glass”. That was great SF! I read and loved every yarn in the series. It had S.F.'s defining "sense of wonder" that more recent stuff lacks.
26 posted on 08/03/2008 11:42:54 PM PDT by Bernard Marx
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To: PetroniusMaximus

“But glass? Well, they’re not really sure about that one. No consensus yet.”

They ought to put some evolutionists on it - they know everything.


evolutionists = environmentalists?


27 posted on 08/03/2008 11:53:00 PM PDT by pyrless (I carry a gun, 'cause a cop is too heavy)
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To: neverdem

Maybe the glass was thicker at the bottom by design, rather than slow flow, or by chance.


28 posted on 08/04/2008 3:58:28 AM PDT by Fresh Wind (Five Year Plans and New Deals, wrapped in golden chains...)
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To: Bernard Marx; nomorelurker

http://www.scifi.com/scifiction/classics/classics_archive/shaw/shaw1.html

Gotta love the internet :)


29 posted on 08/04/2008 4:09:57 AM PDT by Eepsy (12-30-2008 +1)
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To: PetroniusMaximus

.....they know everything......

See, that’s where you display your gross ignorance. The admission of not knowing is the path to enlightenment. The insistance on certainty derived from blind faith is not a trait of scientists.


30 posted on 08/04/2008 4:42:03 AM PDT by bert (K.E. N.P. +12 . Conservation? Let the NE Yankees freeze.... in the dark)
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To: 668 - Neighbor of the Beast

Panes of glass in 17th centry New England houses are thicker at the bottom than at the top.


31 posted on 08/04/2008 4:45:40 AM PDT by ThanhPhero (di hanh huong den La Vang)
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To: neverdem
It's a liquid!

I took some 3’x4’ glass window pains out of a building that we remodeled that were about 60 years old and miked them and every one of them was thicker at the bottom than at the top.

It definatly is liquid silica.

32 posted on 08/04/2008 5:00:11 AM PDT by dalereed (both)
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To: Soliton

Or maybe the glaziers, while assembling their windows, took their uneven slabs and oriented them thick-end-down, for strength and/or aesthetics.


33 posted on 08/04/2008 5:13:50 AM PDT by Tenniel2 (No-cameras No-bama: the bastard offspring of Josef Stalin and Jimmy Carter.)
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To: Tenniel2

“Or maybe the glaziers, while assembling their windows, took their uneven slabs and oriented them thick-end-down, for strength and/or aesthetics.”

If that isn’t sarcasm you’re stupid and need to be locked away!


34 posted on 08/04/2008 5:20:39 AM PDT by dalereed (both)
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To: Tenniel2
Or maybe the glaziers, while assembling their windows, took their uneven slabs and oriented them thick-end-down, for strength and/or aesthetics.

No, the flow rate has been measured

35 posted on 08/04/2008 5:22:10 AM PDT by Soliton (> 100)
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To: neverdem

Some people think glass is a slow-moving liquid?


36 posted on 08/04/2008 5:58:07 AM PDT by Impy (Spellcheck hates Obama, you should too.)
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To: Eepsy

Thanks for that. I’ll bookmark it.


37 posted on 08/04/2008 9:34:53 AM PDT by Bernard Marx
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To: neverdem
“Many people tell me this is very contentious. I disagree violently with them.”

LOL!

38 posted on 08/04/2008 3:07:50 PM PDT by lepton ("It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into"--Jonathan Swift)
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To: neverdem

bump


39 posted on 08/04/2008 3:08:36 PM PDT by VOA
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To: bert

“See, that’s where you display your gross ignorance.”

Look! It’s a childishly arrogant poster calling another poster “gross[ly] ignotant”. What are you going to hit me with next... “nanny, nanny boo boo”?

“The insistance on certainty derived from blind faith is not a trait of scientists.”

Tell that to the Global Warming crowd. The Evolutionists are just the same - dogmatically locked onto an idea and willing to punish all who fail to bow the knee.


40 posted on 08/04/2008 7:14:59 PM PDT by PetroniusMaximus
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To: dalereed
It's a liquid!

I think so, too. I wonder why they think they can say so conclusively that it's not. They didn't tell us that. I read one theory saying that they made glass in uneven thicknesses and usually put the thickest part at the bottom. The same article made it sound like the thinest part was in the middle so why are not other sides of the glass also thick?

41 posted on 08/06/2008 2:31:52 AM PDT by Bellflower (A Brand New Day Is Coming!)
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