Skip to comments.Ivins colleague rejects therapistís description (Anthrax)
Posted on 08/04/2008 11:35:24 AM PDT by Shermy
While counselor Jean Duley said the late Bruce E. Ivins expressed homicidal intentions, threatened her and said he "would go out in a blaze of glory" in the face of a pending FBI indictment, as least one former colleague believes the Fort Detrick scientist is being used as a scapegoat in the high profile anthrax poisoning case that paralyzed the nation -- again -- shortly after the terrorist attacks of Sept. 11, 2001.
Arthur O. Anderson, a medical doctor and scientist at the U.S. Army Medical Research Institute of Infectious Disease at Fort Detrick, said Duley's description of Ivins doesn't match his impressions of a man with whom he worked for many years.
Ivins, who was about to be indicted by the FBI in the anthrax mailings that killed five people and injured 17 others, was described by Anderson as a hard-working individual with a high level of integrity and pride in both his workplace and his individual work.
The only perceived weakness that Anderson could discern, and not all people would consider it a weakness, he said, was that Ivins "had relatively thin skin."
"His personality style was such that he was sensitive to public opinion," Anderson said Sunday. "There are individuals in our community whose lives are centered around protesting government programs. They're not necessarily interested in facts, but pushing an agenda."
Ivins would take it personally when seemingly unfounded criticism was aimed at something he believed in, Anderson said.
"He was concerned with how the Institute was perceived and how he was perceived," Anderson said. "That manifested itself in the care he took in conducting his research."
As a health care professional and bioethicist -- he heads USAMRIID's Office of Human Use and Ethics -- Anderson said he takes issue with what he views as Duley's professional betrayal of Ivins.
"I can tell you very clearly that the minute a conflict of interest occurs in the caregiver-client relationship É she has to withdraw as the caregiver," he said. "She can't ethically continue to gather information or share information -- betray that trust -- without disclosing to her client that she is sharing what he believes is confidential, privileged information."
Anderson said that if he was to betray a patient's trust in such a manner, he would be subject to medical disciplinary procedures.
In commenting about remarks made by Duley when she applied to the District Court of Maryland for a Peace Order, Anderson said he was amazed that a judge would allow hearsay to be entered on the record.
Duley referred to comments allegedly made by Ivins' psychiatrist about Ivins' homicidal and sociopathic tendencies, without confirmation to the court that the doctor actually made the comments.
"The remaining allegations about murderous ideas and plans sound so foreign to me that in the absence of contemporaneously documented evidence I would have to consider them items of Ms. Duley's vivid imagination or information fed to her by the people she communicated with outside the therapeutic environment," Anderson wrote in an e-mail to the News-Post. "It is not at all surprising to me that a patient whose therapist is serving as a double agent 'therapist' and 'accuser' would become very angry with the therapist and might make some rather dramatic expressions of that anger."
The doctor and scientist paused briefly after being asked if he believes Ivins committed suicide.
"Oh, yeah," he said. "I think all of the circumstances put him in a place where he felt he had no place to go."
Anderson said he became aware in June that the FBI had taken items out of Ivins' lab.
"The FBI took all of the stored things in his lab freezer," Anderson said. "They basically destroyed his life's work. I think that's what upset him the most."
Anderson said it is "highly incomprehensible" to him that Ivins would be regarded as the perpetrator in this case simply because he had access to anthrax.
He said he last saw Ivins around July 6. Ivins told him the FBI was stalking him, following him everywhere, Anderson said.
"He was animated and appropriately concerned, but certainly not out of control."
Anderson does not believe Ivins is responsible for the 2001 anthrax deaths.
"Now that he can't defend himself against the allegations, this will play out the way it will play out," he said.
But he firmly believes it wasn't guilt that killed his colleague and friend.
"I think it was the sense of betrayal and complete abandonment by those around him," Anderson said. "He cared so much and had so much pride in the work he did -- I don't think he could handle that sense of abandonment."
Darned, most of the Catholics I know are both pro-life and would like to see married priests, and women given a more positive position in church missions.
One of the fellows repeatedly identified here as someone for the FBI to look at closely lived off campus in the area ~ don't know the address he had at the time, but it's dollars to doughnuts it was Greendale.
If the new science the above article describes is valid, then it seems the FBI managed to trace the anthrax to Ivins's lab with a high degree of certainty. However, it appears that about ten other people also would have had access to the material and therefore also could have sent the letters. So, I think the FBI was hoping to get Ivins to confess and cop a plea or to do something else that would provide enough additional evidence to narrow the suspect list to him alone.
Of course, this assumes the scientific evidence is for real. I remember reading shortly after the attacks that it would be possible to detect genetic variations that build up across generations as the bugs divide. E.g., scientists A and B divide up some spores and go off to their separate labs, where they each brew up fresh batches of spores. Then they send letters off to senators X and Y. The FBI raids the scientists' labs and seizes remnants of the anthrax batches. Supposedly, the new science would be able to tell which scientist attacked which senator.
That is because they were entered at the First-Class Mail single-piece rate, were addressed in handwriting, and dropped in a curbside collection box (as far as anyone knows ~ even though they could have easily been dropped in the Boca Raton main post office letter drop ~ as revealed in the contamination trail in that facility - See Washington Post.)
The general public is very unaware of how poor service is for that category of mail.
the church does have married priests. Episcoplean priests who have converted are not required to give up their marriage.
I don’t know any pro-life catholics who support female priests.
But that isn’t the same as what you said.
“and women given a more positive position in church missions.”
At most parishes you will see women dominate church positions.
But that is a subject for another thread I suppose.
My point was that there seems to be a discrepancy to how the FBI is portraying this man, as opposed to the man his friends and family claim they knew.
Dr. Hatfill once lived in Harare, Zimbabwe. That city has a suburb named Greendale. Case closed. Not.
and upon news of your family member’s death - would you give similar answers?
Of course the FBI is misrepresenting everything. They want this case closed.
Been a while (6 years) since I tracked that bit down, but if you subscribe to the idea that the perpetrator(s) used real references to make up the addresses, etc. (kind of mental triggers), it's possible they simply reversed a ZIP on an address of meaning to them.
I haven’t followed this very closely, but in reviewing old threads there is this:
...quoting the Wall St Journal: “Throughout one of the largest investigations in law-enforcement history, agents were fixated on a ‘lone wolf’ theory that Director Robert Mueller’s FBI, for all intents and purposes, now admits was wrong. Helped along by a sympathetic press corps, the obsession with a domestic perpetrator has ended up in a dead end.”
And this was on June 30. Just a month later we have a lone wolf domestic perpetrator ended up dead. Things that make you go hmmmmm.
I don’t follow this kind of news because...the guy had access to anthrax and wasn’t caught for nearly 7 years, it just beggars believability.
Your typical hospital pharmacy, you can’t get tylenol without signing in, signing out, signing your name, saying who sent you, what it’s for, how much you want, and what color were your bridesmaids’ gowns.
But this guy got anthrax without leaving a trail and then he overloaded himself with tylenol.
It's kind of amazing that it's just happening to be closed so close to the election, when we're certainly going to end up with a highly Democrat congress, and quite possibly a Democrat president as well. And with the political nature of this case, the pressure for information would have intensified, big time.
Guess they won't have to worry about giving any more briefings on this one to a new administration, will they?
As for me, the closest thing to a relative I could say that about is my ex-husband, who is danged lucky I didn't kill him myself ; )
“U.S. officials said e-mails or other documents detail Ivins’ long-standing fixation on the sorority.”
Is that what they told the reporters, “We got e-mails. Or other documents. Or, or..”
This smells like it is linked to Duley.
I expect that before too long, they’ll be telling us that he was also fixated on the National Enquirer, and that was why he he sent the first letter to their headquarters.
Assuming the FBI's conclusion that the stuff originated at Ivins's lab is correct, then Ivins or one of his coworkers must have soaked up the emerging story of the hijackers' stay in the US. I wonder if the National Enquirer connection was public knowledge by the time of the mailing?
The orchestration of leaks, including their vagueness and desperation (and seeming jibing with Duley’s weirdness) tells me the science to be revealed isn’t a dead bang winner.
Do different post offices use different stamps? This determination sounds a little farfetched to me, but maybe it's possible. If so, I'm surprised that this information never came out until now.
The particular variety used in the anthrax attack has been replaced.
If they were putting track and trace materials in the paper it was a secret.
What I suspect is that there were no track and trace materials in the paper, but in the course of "discussing" the business with some cronie reporter the FBI informant got all mixed up on "all the envelopes came from Pennsylvania" ~ meaning the facility in Wilkes Barre ~ and got turned into "near Maryland or New Jersey" - since PA, after all, really is near MD and NJ.
So, what can I say ~ FBI guys are protecting their careers from a possible Obama regime, and reporters are stupid.
well of course what you describe involve extreme cases, and if the brother had pointed to such things it would be understandable.
But he didn’t.
Instead he strangely describes being stronger, being athletic, not crumbling under pressure like his weaker brother.
It sounds like an extreme case of sibling rivalry.
"He proceeded to describe to the group a very long and detailed homicidal plan and intention, that he had bought a vest, obtained a gun, a very detailed plan to kill his co-workers, because he was about to be indicted on capital murder charges," she added. "He was going to go out in a blaze of glory."Well, did the FBI find the vest and gun yet?
Time to drain another pond eh~!
Yeah, some blaze of glory: being found alone on the floor, dying from an overdose! He did exactly the opposite of what she's claiming.
Oh, and if what this lady is saying is true, that he supposedly discussed his homicidal intentions in front of a group of people, that means there's a whole group of people out there that should be able to corroborate what she is saying. I guess they may not want to admit taking part in group therapy sessions though.
The more I think about it, the more it sounds like she's spinning a total cock and bull story.
Now we dont hear about the brother any more.
The “distance” between the brothers was mentioned in The Wall
Street Journal last week.
The reason was that the brother said they just didn’t get together much
was because when Bruce Ivins got his degree, he started to lord it
over his brother.
Sounds like Ivins got a bit of a superiority complex that rubbed
family members the wrong way.
Katherine Breckinridge Graham, a Kappa alumna who serves as an adviser to the sorority's Princeton chapter, said Monday she was interviewed by FBI agents "over the last couple of years" about the case. She said she could not provide any details about the interview because she signed an FBI nondisclosure form.That's very interesting. Apparently the sorority angle didn't just recently derive from Duley. Maybe there really is an "email...or document" having him complain about the sorority.
However, Graham said there was nothing to indicate that any of the sorority members had anything to do with Ivins.
"Nothing odd went on," said Graham, an attorney.
Kappa Kappa Gamma also has chapters at nearby colleges in Maryland, Pennsylvania and Washington. One official said investigators were working off the theory that Ivins chose to mail the letters from the Princeton chapter to confuse investigators if he ever were to emerge as a suspect in the case.What?!? Is this logical in any regard? He intended to frame the sorority? How? And then chose one farther away not to implicate himself?
Oh, and if what this lady is saying is true, that he supposedly discussed his homicidal intentions in front of a group of people, that means there's a whole group of people out there that should be able to corroborate what she is saying. I guess they may not want to admit taking part in group therapy sessions though.Or, as Blackdog theorized, Ivins was sarcastically spinning some of it to rile her up.
BTW, no news yet from Dr. David Irwin who Duley claimed was Ivins' psychiatrist and would confirm her statements about him being homicidal.
“What?!? Is this logical in any regard? He intended to frame the sorority? How? And then chose one farther away not to implicate himself?”
it doesn’t make sense.
And as freeper muawiyah is pointing out, the letters didn’t necessarily have to be dropped in the mail in Jersey for that box to get contaminated.
“Sounds like Ivins got a bit of a superiority complex that rubbed
family members the wrong way.”
And yet - when you read Tom’s opinions, one could get the impression Tom was the one with the superiority complex.
Gad, this is how they handled the deal going on in North Carolina hunting for the Atlanta Bomber ~ send in young men to honey up the wimmenfolks at the local beerjoints.
And yet - when you read Toms opinions, one could get the impression
Tom was the one with the superiority complex.
I do concede that’s a possibility given the info in post #22.
Please note that I’m at the least an “agnostic” about the likelihood
that Bruce Ivins was the producer behind “Amerithrax”.
Given what’s happened since 2001...it may never be solved.
I’m not raggin’ on the FBI. Even if the FBI personnel didn’t act
in the fine tradition of Sherlock Holmes.
This was probably a very complex and difficult case to crack.
And to endure the embarassement of a $5.8 Million settlement
to a “person of interest” and his legal counsel.
I’m not convinced either way, and we are left with 2 possibilities.
He either committed suicide because he is guilty -or he committed suicide because the FBI drove him to a point of despair.
I am finding the 2nd possibility to be unthinkable given the FBI’s major screw-ups in the past.
you must have good information that surrounds the test results — I don’t believe they have much of either.
And, the anthrax samples gleaned from the envelopes would have been contaminated and aged. Anthrax dna breaks down over a period of time. (4)years later..
pardon me for buttin in but that whole connected mail system would have become contaminated. Who knows how far the contaminated mail reached.
Information? What I got is experience in watching these claims fronted to the media, then they eventually turn out to be less than advertised, or non-existent. A la the Hatfill case, which seems to be playing out here again.
It is a fascinating story. I hope it was Ivins so they can close the case. The government has been steadfast on the Ft. Detrick angle from early, haven’t wavered on that one.
That is the profilers angle, they just can’t be wrong (sarc)
and B. Hatch Rosenberg, pushing this.
I’m not any kind of expert on that.
If you have more details/opinions would like to hear them though.
That’s what forums are for.
There is a Greendale neighborhood or suburb in Cincinnati, about twenty miles from Lebanon.
There is also a Greendale in Hocking County, Ohio -- one hundred or so miles east of Lebanon.
A connection between Lebanon and Greendale is not out of the question.
I think the AP story has been adjusted:
“The mailbox just off the campus of Princeton University where the letters were mailed sits about 100 yards away from where the college’s Kappa Kappa Gamma chapter stores its rush materials, initiation robes and other property. Sorority members do not live there, and the Kappa chapter at Princeton does not provide a house for the women.”
Weak. What is it, a public storage?
Anthrax case bump for later...........
This case sure brings up a lot of weird connections.
There was a Greendale in Zimbabwe where Hatfill had lived. Little noted, Greendale there is next to a place called “Hatfield.”
I guess you’re all aware that the libs are saying that Cheney and Bush orchestrated the anthrax poisonings to support the invasion of Iraq. They are even accusing Cheney of ordering Ivins’ murder. Unbelievable.
You are right - that brother sounds absolutely weird! And the way that in other interviews he boasted that he “sang like a canary”, whereas in this interview he says that he stood up well to FBI questioning, is more than slightly loopy.
That bit about he is not sorry his brother is dead is chilling. Like hearing Cain interviewed about Able.
A health professional has a responsibility to act if a patient talks about homicidal intentions. Did she report it? Where are her notes?
I don't believe a word of it. The FBI has shown itself to be totally corrupt. They allowed three men to be sentenced to life in prison all the while feeding information to Mafia murderers and protecting them. They're corrupt.
Are we just biased or is the FBI story simply falling apart?
“Are we just biased or is the FBI story simply falling apart?”
It is like they are trying to create one quickly, and someone is talking to AP too early.
I thought they were going to say he stalked the sorority house, something like that, turns out there is no house.
They may have a case against Ivins, but this leaking and shifting isn’t helping them.
I have the feeling this particular organization has a George Soros link but couldn't quite pin it down. The ZULU NATION website lists just about all of Soros' hired activist groups, but it has a number of others without such a link.
I found the piece about Paul's theory in a link to the Albion Monitor. Their feature writers (they claim) have included Molly Ivins.
There's a lot more going on here than anyone is letting on.
Given the ease of finding a direct link from Dr. Ivins to Molly Ivins, maybe Doc here is the far leftwingtard who helped out AlQaida.
If I were the FBI I' have Molly on the rack right now ~ but I'm not the FBI.
NOTE: Doc. Ivins may well have supplied the anthrax to terrorist circles who in turn worked with AlQaida on the "delivery technique". That's where the Atta's core group in Florida come in.
Which probably means everyone's questions about FBI's meaningless research into the anthrax attack were spot on. It was purposefully misdirected by the guys at the top. With the appointment of a new chief investigator at least part of the chain of custody has possibly been identified. Now to tie it into the leftwingers who actually arranged for the attack.
No wonder Dr. Ivins "committed suicide".
“Like hearing Cain interviewed about Able.”
yes - very disturbing comments from a man who’s just learned of his brother’s death.
There may be a blood tie but I couldn't find it.
Would you air your family's dirty laundry in the media on the national level? I wouldn't.
Instead he strangely describes being stronger, being athletic, not crumbling under pressure like his weaker brother.
That "macho" attitude could come from the same type of family environment I described with my B-I-L, wherein he could have either resisted more than his brother or is ashamed of what happened and overcompensates. My B-I-L's son turned out to be a macho type who beats his wife. The human psyche is actually pretty predictable in these matters.