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Ivins colleague rejects therapistís description (Anthrax)
Frederick News Post ^ | August 4, 2008 | Marge Neal

Posted on 08/04/2008 11:35:24 AM PDT by Shermy

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To: Scotswife

Darned, most of the Catholics I know are both pro-life and would like to see married priests, and women given a more positive position in church missions.


51 posted on 08/04/2008 1:16:58 PM PDT by muawiyah (We need a "Gastank For America" to win back Congress)
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To: cynwoody
Couple of Greendale named places are "roads" down in the Research Triangle.

One of the fellows repeatedly identified here as someone for the FBI to look at closely lived off campus in the area ~ don't know the address he had at the time, but it's dollars to doughnuts it was Greendale.

52 posted on 08/04/2008 1:20:15 PM PDT by muawiyah (We need a "Gastank For America" to win back Congress)
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To: TrebleRebel
Scientist: DNA led agents to anthrax suspect

If the new science the above article describes is valid, then it seems the FBI managed to trace the anthrax to Ivins's lab with a high degree of certainty. However, it appears that about ten other people also would have had access to the material and therefore also could have sent the letters. So, I think the FBI was hoping to get Ivins to confess and cop a plea or to do something else that would provide enough additional evidence to narrow the suspect list to him alone.

Of course, this assumes the scientific evidence is for real. I remember reading shortly after the attacks that it would be possible to detect genetic variations that build up across generations as the bugs divide. E.g., scientists A and B divide up some spores and go off to their separate labs, where they each brew up fresh batches of spores. Then they send letters off to senators X and Y. The FBI raids the scientists' labs and seizes remnants of the anthrax batches. Supposedly, the new science would be able to tell which scientist attacked which senator.

53 posted on 08/04/2008 1:21:56 PM PDT by cynwoody
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To: Shermy
The "day the letters were mailed" is UNKNOWN. For a variety of reasons those letters could have been postmarked as long as 6 months to a year after being mailed.

That is because they were entered at the First-Class Mail single-piece rate, were addressed in handwriting, and dropped in a curbside collection box (as far as anyone knows ~ even though they could have easily been dropped in the Boca Raton main post office letter drop ~ as revealed in the contamination trail in that facility - See Washington Post.)

The general public is very unaware of how poor service is for that category of mail.

54 posted on 08/04/2008 1:24:07 PM PDT by muawiyah (We need a "Gastank For America" to win back Congress)
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To: muawiyah

the church does have married priests. Episcoplean priests who have converted are not required to give up their marriage.

I don’t know any pro-life catholics who support female priests.
But that isn’t the same as what you said.
you said..
“and women given a more positive position in church missions.”

At most parishes you will see women dominate church positions.

But that is a subject for another thread I suppose.

My point was that there seems to be a discrepancy to how the FBI is portraying this man, as opposed to the man his friends and family claim they knew.


55 posted on 08/04/2008 1:25:39 PM PDT by Scotswife
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To: muawiyah
Couple of Greendale named places are "roads" down in the Research Triangle.

Dr. Hatfill once lived in Harare, Zimbabwe. That city has a suburb named Greendale. Case closed. Not.

56 posted on 08/04/2008 1:26:54 PM PDT by cynwoody
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To: ravingnutter

and upon news of your family member’s death - would you give similar answers?


57 posted on 08/04/2008 1:29:39 PM PDT by Scotswife
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To: Scotswife

Of course the FBI is misrepresenting everything. They want this case closed.


58 posted on 08/04/2008 1:30:37 PM PDT by muawiyah (We need a "Gastank For America" to win back Congress)
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To: cynwoody
Recall the ZIP Code of the return address? Reverse the order of the numbers. It's a real place ~ in North Carolina I believe.

Been a while (6 years) since I tracked that bit down, but if you subscribe to the idea that the perpetrator(s) used real references to make up the addresses, etc. (kind of mental triggers), it's possible they simply reversed a ZIP on an address of meaning to them.

59 posted on 08/04/2008 1:34:27 PM PDT by muawiyah (We need a "Gastank For America" to win back Congress)
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To: MrB

I haven’t followed this very closely, but in reviewing old threads there is this:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2038676/posts

...quoting the Wall St Journal: “Throughout one of the largest investigations in law-enforcement history, agents were fixated on a ‘lone wolf’ theory that Director Robert Mueller’s FBI, for all intents and purposes, now admits was wrong. Helped along by a sympathetic press corps, the obsession with a domestic perpetrator has ended up in a dead end.”

And this was on June 30. Just a month later we have a lone wolf domestic perpetrator ended up dead. Things that make you go hmmmmm.


60 posted on 08/04/2008 1:34:49 PM PDT by 668 - Neighbor of the Beast (Stop the O-bomb.)
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To: Shermy

I don’t follow this kind of news because...the guy had access to anthrax and wasn’t caught for nearly 7 years, it just beggars believability.
Your typical hospital pharmacy, you can’t get tylenol without signing in, signing out, signing your name, saying who sent you, what it’s for, how much you want, and what color were your bridesmaids’ gowns.
But this guy got anthrax without leaving a trail and then he overloaded himself with tylenol.


61 posted on 08/04/2008 1:38:53 PM PDT by 668 - Neighbor of the Beast (Stop the O-bomb.)
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To: 668 - Neighbor of the Beast
I think our highly politicized FBI would do and say darn near almost anything to "close" this case at this point.

It's kind of amazing that it's just happening to be closed so close to the election, when we're certainly going to end up with a highly Democrat congress, and quite possibly a Democrat president as well. And with the political nature of this case, the pressure for information would have intensified, big time.

Guess they won't have to worry about giving any more briefings on this one to a new administration, will they?

62 posted on 08/04/2008 1:46:49 PM PDT by jpl ("Present." - Barack Obama)
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To: Scotswife
I've known people who have. My brother-in-law's son and daughter just to name two. We found out that he had molested them when they were children, that is why they hated him and didn't even bother to come to his funeral after he killed himself. There are many reasons a person would disown another family member, it would just depend on the severity of the charges. Considering the molestation, I found their feelings completely understandable.

As for me, the closest thing to a relative I could say that about is my ex-husband, who is danged lucky I didn't kill him myself ; )

63 posted on 08/04/2008 1:52:00 PM PDT by ravingnutter
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To: jpl; Scotswife; TrebleRebel; muawiyah

“U.S. officials said e-mails or other documents detail Ivins’ long-standing fixation on the sorority.”

Is that what they told the reporters, “We got e-mails. Or other documents. Or, or..”

This smells like it is linked to Duley.


64 posted on 08/04/2008 1:52:01 PM PDT by Shermy (I'm very proud of America giving me this opportunity. It's a sign of enormous growth in this country)
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To: Shermy

I expect that before too long, they’ll be telling us that he was also fixated on the National Enquirer, and that was why he he sent the first letter to their headquarters.


65 posted on 08/04/2008 1:58:24 PM PDT by jpl ("Present." - Barack Obama)
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To: jpl
I expect that before too long, they’ll be telling us that he was also fixated on the National Enquirer, and that was why he he sent the first letter to their headquarters.

Assuming the FBI's conclusion that the stuff originated at Ivins's lab is correct, then Ivins or one of his coworkers must have soaked up the emerging story of the hijackers' stay in the US. I wonder if the National Enquirer connection was public knowledge by the time of the mailing?

66 posted on 08/04/2008 2:04:33 PM PDT by cynwoody
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To: jpl

The orchestration of leaks, including their vagueness and desperation (and seeming jibing with Duley’s weirdness) tells me the science to be revealed isn’t a dead bang winner.


67 posted on 08/04/2008 2:10:14 PM PDT by Shermy (I'm very proud of America giving me this opportunity. It's a sign of enormous growth in this country)
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To: muawiyah
As a resident expert in postal operations, I wonder if you may have any insight into the science behind how it is that they were supposedly able to pinpoint where the prestamped envelopes were bought.

Do different post offices use different stamps? This determination sounds a little farfetched to me, but maybe it's possible. If so, I'm surprised that this information never came out until now.

68 posted on 08/04/2008 2:16:10 PM PDT by jpl ("Present." - Barack Obama)
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To: jpl
I'm really surprised at it too. Last I recall all the postage prepaid envelopes were manufactured at the facility in Wilkes Barre PA.

The particular variety used in the anthrax attack has been replaced.

If they were putting track and trace materials in the paper it was a secret.

What I suspect is that there were no track and trace materials in the paper, but in the course of "discussing" the business with some cronie reporter the FBI informant got all mixed up on "all the envelopes came from Pennsylvania" ~ meaning the facility in Wilkes Barre ~ and got turned into "near Maryland or New Jersey" - since PA, after all, really is near MD and NJ.

So, what can I say ~ FBI guys are protecting their careers from a possible Obama regime, and reporters are stupid.

69 posted on 08/04/2008 2:25:22 PM PDT by muawiyah (We need a "Gastank For America" to win back Congress)
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To: ravingnutter

well of course what you describe involve extreme cases, and if the brother had pointed to such things it would be understandable.
But he didn’t.
Instead he strangely describes being stronger, being athletic, not crumbling under pressure like his weaker brother.

It sounds like an extreme case of sibling rivalry.


70 posted on 08/04/2008 2:30:04 PM PDT by Scotswife
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To: jpl; blackdog; Scotswife; TrebleRebel
From Duley before:

"He proceeded to describe to the group a very long and detailed homicidal plan and intention, that he had bought a vest, obtained a gun, a very detailed plan to kill his co-workers, because he was about to be indicted on capital murder charges," she added. "He was going to go out in a blaze of glory."
Well, did the FBI find the vest and gun yet?
71 posted on 08/04/2008 2:34:27 PM PDT by Shermy (I'm very proud of America giving me this opportunity. It's a sign of enormous growth in this country)
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To: Shermy

Time to drain another pond eh~!


72 posted on 08/04/2008 2:54:35 PM PDT by muawiyah (We need a "Gastank For America" to win back Congress)
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To: Shermy
"He proceeded to describe to the group a very long and detailed homicidal plan and intention, that he had bought a vest, obtained a gun, a very detailed plan to kill his co-workers, because he was about to be indicted on capital murder charges," she added. "He was going to go out in a blaze of glory."

Yeah, some blaze of glory: being found alone on the floor, dying from an overdose! He did exactly the opposite of what she's claiming.

Oh, and if what this lady is saying is true, that he supposedly discussed his homicidal intentions in front of a group of people, that means there's a whole group of people out there that should be able to corroborate what she is saying. I guess they may not want to admit taking part in group therapy sessions though.

The more I think about it, the more it sounds like she's spinning a total cock and bull story.

73 posted on 08/04/2008 2:57:27 PM PDT by jpl ("Present." - Barack Obama)
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To: Shermy
Of course the FBI leaker failed to mention the other 133 Kappa Kappa Gamma locations that weren't near an anthrax mailbox...... Kappa Kappa Gamma (ΚΚΓ) is a college women's fraternity, founded on October 13, 1870 at Monmouth College, Illinois. Kappa Kappa Gamma is one of the largest fraternities for women in America. Currently, there are chapters in both the United States and Canada. The most recent chapter brought the total number of Kappa Kappa Gamma chapters at higher learning institutions to 134. There are also 300+ alumnae associations around the world. Since its founding in 1870, more than 220,000 members have been initiated into Kappa Kappa Gamma.
74 posted on 08/04/2008 2:58:43 PM PDT by TrebleRebel
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To: Shermy


Now we don’t hear about the brother any more.

The “distance” between the brothers was mentioned in The Wall
Street Journal last week.
The reason was that the brother said they just didn’t get together much
was because when Bruce Ivins got his degree, he started to lord it
over his brother.

Sounds like Ivins got a bit of a superiority complex that rubbed
family members the wrong way.


75 posted on 08/04/2008 3:07:12 PM PDT by VOA
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To: TrebleRebel; jpl; Scotswife; okie01; Mitchell; blackdog; muawiyah
Other sororities? By coincidence, AP update covers that:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080804/ap_on_go_ot/anthrax_investigation_27

Katherine Breckinridge Graham, a Kappa alumna who serves as an adviser to the sorority's Princeton chapter, said Monday she was interviewed by FBI agents "over the last couple of years" about the case. She said she could not provide any details about the interview because she signed an FBI nondisclosure form.

However, Graham said there was nothing to indicate that any of the sorority members had anything to do with Ivins.

"Nothing odd went on," said Graham, an attorney.

That's very interesting. Apparently the sorority angle didn't just recently derive from Duley. Maybe there really is an "email...or document" having him complain about the sorority.

But,

Kappa Kappa Gamma also has chapters at nearby colleges in Maryland, Pennsylvania and Washington. One official said investigators were working off the theory that Ivins chose to mail the letters from the Princeton chapter to confuse investigators if he ever were to emerge as a suspect in the case.
What?!? Is this logical in any regard? He intended to frame the sorority? How? And then chose one farther away not to implicate himself?
76 posted on 08/04/2008 3:08:47 PM PDT by Shermy (I'm very proud of America giving me this opportunity. It's a sign of enormous growth in this country)
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To: jpl
Oh, and if what this lady is saying is true, that he supposedly discussed his homicidal intentions in front of a group of people, that means there's a whole group of people out there that should be able to corroborate what she is saying. I guess they may not want to admit taking part in group therapy sessions though.
Or, as Blackdog theorized, Ivins was sarcastically spinning some of it to rile her up.

BTW, no news yet from Dr. David Irwin who Duley claimed was Ivins' psychiatrist and would confirm her statements about him being homicidal.

77 posted on 08/04/2008 3:11:34 PM PDT by Shermy (I'm very proud of America giving me this opportunity. It's a sign of enormous growth in this country)
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To: Shermy; muawiyah

“What?!? Is this logical in any regard? He intended to frame the sorority? How? And then chose one farther away not to implicate himself?”

no.
it doesn’t make sense.

And as freeper muawiyah is pointing out, the letters didn’t necessarily have to be dropped in the mail in Jersey for that box to get contaminated.


78 posted on 08/04/2008 3:31:38 PM PDT by Scotswife
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To: VOA

“Sounds like Ivins got a bit of a superiority complex that rubbed
family members the wrong way.”

And yet - when you read Tom’s opinions, one could get the impression Tom was the one with the superiority complex.


79 posted on 08/04/2008 3:33:26 PM PDT by Scotswife
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To: TrebleRebel; Shermy
So, several dozen young FBI agents find theselves having to interview members of a sorority at Princeton ~ "paid dates" Fur Shur!~

Gad, this is how they handled the deal going on in North Carolina hunting for the Atlanta Bomber ~ send in young men to honey up the wimmenfolks at the local beerjoints.

80 posted on 08/04/2008 3:46:50 PM PDT by muawiyah (We need a "Gastank For America" to win back Congress)
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To: Scotswife


And yet - when you read Tom’s opinions, one could get the impression
Tom was the one with the superiority complex.

I do concede that’s a possibility given the info in post #22.

Please note that I’m at the least an “agnostic” about the likelihood
that Bruce Ivins was the producer behind “Amerithrax”.
Given what’s happened since 2001...it may never be solved.

I’m not raggin’ on the FBI. Even if the FBI personnel didn’t act
in the fine tradition of Sherlock Holmes.
This was probably a very complex and difficult case to crack.
And to endure the embarassement of a $5.8 Million settlement
to a “person of interest” and his legal counsel.


81 posted on 08/04/2008 3:49:21 PM PDT by VOA
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To: VOA

I’m not convinced either way, and we are left with 2 possibilities.
He either committed suicide because he is guilty -or he committed suicide because the FBI drove him to a point of despair.

I am finding the 2nd possibility to be unthinkable given the FBI’s major screw-ups in the past.


82 posted on 08/04/2008 4:04:46 PM PDT by Scotswife
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To: Shermy

you must have good information that surrounds the test results — I don’t believe they have much of either.

And, the anthrax samples gleaned from the envelopes would have been contaminated and aged. Anthrax dna breaks down over a period of time. (4)years later..


83 posted on 08/04/2008 4:05:47 PM PDT by PaRepub07
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To: Scotswife

pardon me for buttin in but that whole connected mail system would have become contaminated. Who knows how far the contaminated mail reached.


84 posted on 08/04/2008 4:09:24 PM PDT by PaRepub07
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To: PaRepub07

Information? What I got is experience in watching these claims fronted to the media, then they eventually turn out to be less than advertised, or non-existent. A la the Hatfill case, which seems to be playing out here again.

It is a fascinating story. I hope it was Ivins so they can close the case. The government has been steadfast on the Ft. Detrick angle from early, haven’t wavered on that one.


85 posted on 08/04/2008 4:17:09 PM PDT by Shermy (I'm very proud of America giving me this opportunity. It's a sign of enormous growth in this country)
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To: Shermy

That is the profilers angle, they just can’t be wrong (sarc)

and B. Hatch Rosenberg, pushing this.


86 posted on 08/04/2008 4:19:55 PM PDT by PaRepub07
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To: PaRepub07

I’m not any kind of expert on that.
If you have more details/opinions would like to hear them though.
That’s what forums are for.


87 posted on 08/04/2008 4:20:53 PM PDT by Scotswife
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To: Shermy
came to two of their regular Wednesday meetings asking lots of questions....Did they know of a school or cemetery named Greendale?

There is a Greendale neighborhood or suburb in Cincinnati, about twenty miles from Lebanon.

There is also a Greendale in Hocking County, Ohio -- one hundred or so miles east of Lebanon.

A connection between Lebanon and Greendale is not out of the question.

88 posted on 08/04/2008 4:53:58 PM PDT by okie01 (THE MAINSTREAM MEDIA: Ignorance on Parade)
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To: okie01; TrebleRebel; muawiyah

I think the AP story has been adjusted:

“The mailbox just off the campus of Princeton University where the letters were mailed sits about 100 yards away from where the college’s Kappa Kappa Gamma chapter stores its rush materials, initiation robes and other property. Sorority members do not live there, and the Kappa chapter at Princeton does not provide a house for the women.”

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080804/ap_on_go_ot/anthrax_investigation;_ylt=ArmmDSI9sjs5EjuJKMk786Gs0NUE

Weak. What is it, a public storage?


89 posted on 08/04/2008 5:09:14 PM PDT by Shermy (I'm very proud of America giving me this opportunity. It's a sign of enormous growth in this country)
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To: Shermy

Anthrax case bump for later...........


90 posted on 08/04/2008 5:21:04 PM PDT by indthkr
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To: okie01

This case sure brings up a lot of weird connections.

There was a Greendale in Zimbabwe where Hatfill had lived. Little noted, Greendale there is next to a place called “Hatfield.”


91 posted on 08/04/2008 5:23:12 PM PDT by Shermy (OOOOOOObama, where the waffles come sweeping off the plains)
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To: Dick Vomer; All

I guess you’re all aware that the libs are saying that Cheney and Bush orchestrated the anthrax poisonings to support the invasion of Iraq. They are even accusing Cheney of ordering Ivins’ murder. Unbelievable.


92 posted on 08/04/2008 5:49:42 PM PDT by pollyg107
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To: Scotswife; jpl

You are right - that brother sounds absolutely weird! And the way that in other interviews he boasted that he “sang like a canary”, whereas in this interview he says that he stood up well to FBI questioning, is more than slightly loopy.

That bit about he is not sorry his brother is dead is chilling. Like hearing Cain interviewed about Able.


93 posted on 08/04/2008 6:07:24 PM PDT by BlackVeil
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To: Shermy
...if what this lady is saying is true, that he supposedly discussed his homicidal intentions in front of a group of people...

A health professional has a responsibility to act if a patient talks about homicidal intentions. Did she report it? Where are her notes?

I don't believe a word of it. The FBI has shown itself to be totally corrupt. They allowed three men to be sentenced to life in prison all the while feeding information to Mafia murderers and protecting them. They're corrupt.

94 posted on 08/04/2008 6:07:32 PM PDT by ladyjane
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To: Shermy
You got me laughing on that one. Wonder who the FBI guys "interviewed" there on campus? Maybe just invited some of the girls on campus to come up and feel their guns or something?

Are we just biased or is the FBI story simply falling apart?

95 posted on 08/04/2008 6:27:19 PM PDT by muawiyah (We need a "Gastank For America" to win back Congress)
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To: muawiyah

“Are we just biased or is the FBI story simply falling apart?”

It is like they are trying to create one quickly, and someone is talking to AP too early.

I thought they were going to say he stalked the sorority house, something like that, turns out there is no house.

They may have a case against Ivins, but this leaking and shifting isn’t helping them.


96 posted on 08/04/2008 6:42:57 PM PDT by Shermy (OOOOOOObama, where the waffles come sweeping off the plains)
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To: Shermy
As a matter of interest the current theory used to target Dr. Ivins is the product of a storyline developed by Paul de Armond of the Public Good Project (SEE: www.publicgood.org )

I have the feeling this particular organization has a George Soros link but couldn't quite pin it down. The ZULU NATION website lists just about all of Soros' hired activist groups, but it has a number of others without such a link.

I found the piece about Paul's theory in a link to the Albion Monitor. Their feature writers (they claim) have included Molly Ivins.

There's a lot more going on here than anyone is letting on.

Given the ease of finding a direct link from Dr. Ivins to Molly Ivins, maybe Doc here is the far leftwingtard who helped out AlQaida.

If I were the FBI I' have Molly on the rack right now ~ but I'm not the FBI.

NOTE: Doc. Ivins may well have supplied the anthrax to terrorist circles who in turn worked with AlQaida on the "delivery technique". That's where the Atta's core group in Florida come in.

Which probably means everyone's questions about FBI's meaningless research into the anthrax attack were spot on. It was purposefully misdirected by the guys at the top. With the appointment of a new chief investigator at least part of the chain of custody has possibly been identified. Now to tie it into the leftwingers who actually arranged for the attack.

No wonder Dr. Ivins "committed suicide".

97 posted on 08/04/2008 7:07:52 PM PDT by muawiyah (We need a "Gastank For America" to win back Congress)
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To: BlackVeil

“Like hearing Cain interviewed about Able.”

yes - very disturbing comments from a man who’s just learned of his brother’s death.


98 posted on 08/04/2008 7:24:45 PM PDT by Scotswife
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To: Verginius Rufus
In just a few short searches I was able to link Bruce Ivins to Molly Ivins ~ check http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2056344/posts at post #21.

There may be a blood tie but I couldn't find it.

99 posted on 08/04/2008 8:04:13 PM PDT by muawiyah (We need a "Gastank For America" to win back Congress)
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To: Scotswife
if the brother had pointed to such things it would be understandable.

Would you air your family's dirty laundry in the media on the national level? I wouldn't.

Instead he strangely describes being stronger, being athletic, not crumbling under pressure like his weaker brother.

That "macho" attitude could come from the same type of family environment I described with my B-I-L, wherein he could have either resisted more than his brother or is ashamed of what happened and overcompensates. My B-I-L's son turned out to be a macho type who beats his wife. The human psyche is actually pretty predictable in these matters.

100 posted on 08/05/2008 5:53:23 AM PDT by ravingnutter
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