Posted on 08/11/2008 10:29:32 AM PDT by Bokababe
WARSAW -- Polish analysts and a part of the political scene are linking the South Ossetia crisis to that in Kosovo, Beta says.
The current armed conflict in the breakaway Georgian region is seen as the Russian answer to the western recognition of Kosovo Albanians' unilateral declaration of independence, the Polish media are saying.
"This is the Russian answer to the recognition of Kosovo. That recognition was in fact a gift to Russia," Polish People's Party European MP Janusz Wojciechowski told TVN24.
Wojciechowski, whose party is a partner in Donald Tusk's cabinet, warned that the case of Kosovo, where a part of the international community accepted the declaration of secession, "shows that it cannot be counted on double standards to pass".
"Russia is using it now", he concluded.
Warnings that the recognition of Kosovo will serve to the detriment of Georgia were heard in Poland as early as February this year.
Bearing in mind the risks for Poland's allies in the Caucasus, Georgia above all, Warsaw's recognition of the Kosovo Albanians' secession was described as an irresponsible move by the legendary anti-communist leader and former Polish president, Lech Walesa.
"Recognizing Kosovo will bring nothing but trouble. No one can be denied the right to self-determination, but only within the bounds of common sense," he was quoted as saying at the time.
Walesa stressed in his statements to the Polish media that Kosovo was "with its irresponsible behavior, causing new divisions in Europe and globally and undermining international relations".
What was he thinking when he compounded Bill Clinton’s mistakes? ...........appeasement of muslims...........
No ****!!!!! You mean, like somebody done figured it out or something like that??
If it’s payback for Kosovo, why are the Russians not restricting their invasion to South Ossetia?
I mean, freedom and independence are wonderful, provided you do it on your own property. What we have with Kosovo is a case of slow-motion land theft, which isn’t exactly the same thing.
Sadly, that is so. The Crusades never ended...........
Lech wasn’t the only person who thought we were idiots to back Kosovoan independence. It was a thumb in Russia’s eye for one thing. It was totally unnecessary.
If it's payback, why is the sKum Russian govt deep into the heart of Georgia?
I look forward to Georgia and Kosovo joining NATO.
If it’s payback, why is the sKum Russian govt deep into the heart of Georgia?
Just imagine that Georgia entered NATo in Bucharest summit some weeks ago?
Amd Sakashvilli AS NATO country- president attacked Russian troops.
Just how could Bush convince Putin that US are not behind deaths of Russian soldiers?
And how would Russians react?
Lech wasn’t the only person who thought we were idiots to back Kosovoan independence. It was a thumb in Russia’s eye for one thing. It was totally unnecessary.
But maybe the muzzies blackmailed Krinton and Blair - said liberate Kosovo or else? Krinton and Blair did this. And then maybe *that’s* what all the stuffing of documents into pants had to do with during the 9/11 inquiry.
Krinton gets “Peace in our Time” and the “Peace Dividend”, the muzzies get a toehold in the soft underbelly of Europe, aka the Balkans, and we get attacked on 9/11 after Krinton leaves office. And then when the 9/11 “commission” starts asking question Sandy Burgler and Jamie Gore-Lick are around to make sure none of this sees the light of day.
Makes about as much sense as anything else.
When it comes to the Clintons, trying to figure out what caused them to do things is an exercise in futility. It doesn’t have to make sense. It probably doesn’t. That doesn’t mean they get a free pass. It just means that’s how bad their rule is.
I just don’t understand why Bush recognized Kosovoan independence right away. We should expect Bush’s moves to make sense. This sure didn’t.
Sounds about right to me. I agree.
Bush will not do one thing to help Georgia, the Russians are making the US look impotent.
And for advancing the boundaries of NATO into former Warsaw pact nations and especially into former Soviet Republics. From the Russian point of view, the west gave the Slavs (Serbs) the finger when taking Kosovo from them. They continue to Give the Russians the finger by inviting former Soviet Republics into NATO. Western globalists want Russia's resources. This is the Bush-Clinton-Bush legacy. They are trading the hopes of former Soviet Republics to be free of the Bear for access to cheap resources. Russia wants these for itself.
So Bush tells Putie to stop it. Putie says F'k you. Now who wants to send their kids to fight for the interests of wealthy, greedy globalists? Not I. Let the European globalists send their kids to fight.
I don’t think NATO limited it’s operations only to targets inside Kosovo. Didn’t we bomb Belgrade? Or am I wrong?
Not that it matters. It looks to me like Georgia overplayed its hand badly, giving Russia a useful pretext to reassert itself in the region.
Is there any chance Georgia is participating in an oil pipeline project that would bypass Russia?
If that's the case, we better get our women to all wear hajabs and everyone convert to Islam, then pass sharia law. That's what its going to take to appease the radical muslims.
Our Country, and Europe, are being prepared for just that right now.
BJ Clinton’s screw up of Kosovo continues to pay negative dividends and will for many years to come.
"South Ossetians nearly unanimously approved a referendum on November 12, 2006 opting for independence from Georgia. The referendum was hugely popular, winning between 98 and 99 percent of the ballots, flag waving and celebration marked were seen across South Ossetia, but elsewhere observers were less enthusiastic. International critics claimed that the move could worsen regional tensions, and the Tblisi government thoroughly discounted the results."
So if Georgia had a right to split from Russia (which I agree that it did), then why doesn't S. Ossetia have the same right? It has apparently been an autonomous province for a long time, and the Ossetians even have their own language. They aren't "invaders" from somewhere else trying to steal territory, they are simply claiming the right to decide who they want to ally themselves with.
Everyone seems to forget that Georgia initiated this military action by attacking S. Ossetian civilians and peacekeepers in a region that had been peaceful for a number of years. As for why the Russians are "striking deep into the heart of Georgia", the answer is to teach Georgians a lesson. I may not like that lesson, but I understand it.
A better question would be: "Why did Georgia attack, given she knew that her odds were that she would fare badly in this fight against Russia?" To me, that is the $64,000 question. Did she think that the US or NATO would ride in on a white horse to save her?
Because it can!
Whos going to den the bear, is the question that Putin is asking everyone. Their tanks have invaded Georgia proper and laid waste to several towns.
Now, knowing full well that he was vulnerable, why did Saakashvili put his people into this mess? Was he not thinking? He could have waited till he got NATO accession!
The clintons remain inscrutable in most cases because they are very good at covering up and suppressing evidence. Can you say Vince Foster? That doesn’t mean we won’t one day know more of their shenanigans than we know now, it just means they have to this point covered their tracks remarkably well. Still, inquiring minds want to know.
The South Ossetians fired artillery at the Georgians from the safety of a city. The Georgians - not as copacetic in their own destruction as Olmert's Israel - fired back. Hence the talk of massacres and so forth, when in fact the Ossetians are wearing their own civilians as body armor.
This tactic - of firing from the midst of civilian concentrations - has been made infamous by Hamas, Hezbollah and so on. It's not surprising to see Russian agents using the same tactic - the KGB made Arafat, and the KGB (with no name change) are running South Ossetia today.
There’s only about 100,000 or so people who live in this province. Should part of North Dakota be allowed to break off from the U.S.? How about these Native Americans that want to break off in South Dakota? As Lech Walesa said when Kosovo broke off. Everyone should be allowed self determination within reason.
The real reason is not for them to become their own country. The eventual reason is to become part of Russia and for Russia to destablize Georgia because they want Georgia, Ukraine, Bellarus et al.. back...
I agree, and I can’t wait...
In Red Dawn the enemy poured across the Mexican border. Hmmmm....
The "reason" was to encroach on Slavic space that we see as potentially being the "traditional Russian sphere of influence" and bait Russia by planting the second largest US military structure in the world Camp Bondsteel, on Serbian soil, without Serbia's permission.
The plans were on the table for building Camp Bondsteel in Kosovo, even prior to the 1999 NATO Bombing of Yugoslavia. And Bondsteel started going up right after the bombing. That's why, in retrospect, Bush HAD to grant Kosovo independence, after the fact. We weren't going to tear Bondsteel down and we couldn't have a military base on Serbia's soil without her permission -- so the solution was to steal the land from Serbia and give it to the Albanians who liked having us in the neighborhood to use against the Serbs.
Yes, it really was that cynical.
So you’re saying that Bush had no choice. Well Camp Bondsteel needs to come down just as the Ruskies need to leave Georgia. If Albania wants us in the area, we need to start negotiating a SOFA with them and build a base there. In fact, a base there would be better than in Kosovo because we have access to the Adriatic sea.
Earlier in the year when Bush’s state department recognized Kosovo I was flabbergasted and could not understand why. This may help explain things.
Have you got any links on this? Because everything I am reading, including the anti-Russia stuff, is saying that Georgia started it.
I am just coming up to speed on the Georgia/ S. Ossetia/Russia political situation. I am far from expert on it. I am, however, determined to take a fair look at it without knee-jerk assuming things or grabbing on to old stereotypes and assuming that they apply here.
Actually, Bush had a choice between "being ethical" -- or "riding that Kosovo horse in the direction that it was already going even if it was off a cliff."
He chose the latter.
That's why it would not shock me to see a US hand in what's going with Georgia & Russia. Georgia would have had to be completely insane to have started this fight with Russia, without some behind the scenes plan for saving itself.
This is kind of rich, coming from Poland...
Yes, I was reading something about that yesterday. I'll see if I can find the links.
One mistaken bombing of the Chinese embassy does not an invasion of Serbia proper make.
Georgia, Russia and Oil:
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/950c5612-66f6-11dd-808f-0000779fd18c.html
http://www.energybulletin.net/node/46173
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/08/09/MNDG127U55.DTL
Georgia, Russia and Oil:
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/950c5612-66f6-11dd-808f-0000779fd18c.html
http://www.energybulletin.net/node/46173
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/08/09/MNDG127U55.DTL
I’m not prepared to believe for one second that this is about South Ossetia or about Kosovo. In my humble opinion: this is about NATO. A NATO-allied Georgia with access to oil and the revenue it would bring, would be able to field a significant force on Russia’s southern border. I believe that this is a calculated move to either eliminate Georgia entirely or otherwise make it militarily useless to NATO.
There are a couple of potential intentions I can surmise on the part of the Russians, but all would have the effect of militarily neutralizing Georgia:
1. Completely take over the country and install a puppet regime.
2. Proceed to the Armenian border (assuming they plan to stop there!), splitting the country in two.
- This denies Georgia Black Sea port access, which prevents (1) NATO coming to their aid by sea and (2) denies them revenue.
- This also allows Russia to cut the oil pipeline from Georgia to Turkey which denies them oil revenue.
That’s not to say that I’m an apologist for Russia (quite the opposite!) but I think that this is what they’re aiming at. I don’t know what can be done for Georgia at this point (hightail it from Turkey to secure the pipeline?), but one thing we should do ASAP is fast-track Ukraine’s NATO MAP. That needs to be issued yesterday.
NATO did more than that - I saw estimates of serbian civilian deaths in excess of 2000 from bombings outside Kosovo.
Let’s take your assumption for a second, that it was payback (no way it could be)... Doesn’t this take away Serbia’s Russian support for keeping Kosovo? If they had the high moral ground before, saying it shouldn’t be dissolved, that’s gone now
Georgia conflict stokes energy supply concerns
Western Concern Grows Over Oil, Gas Pipes Through Georgia
If it was just about S. Ossethia, then they'd stop there... Also, if it was about S.O., then it takes away any claim Russia had about Kosovo, cause they just did the same thing (yet far worse)..
“Everyone should be allowed self determination within reason.”
Sure. Just as long as it’s MY version of reason.
When the shooting starts, moral high ground is for chumps. The Russians no doubt prefer to occupy the physical high ground, for their artillery.
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