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"South Ossetia, payback for Kosovo"
B92 ^ | 8/10/08 | Beta

Posted on 08/11/2008 10:29:32 AM PDT by Bokababe

WARSAW -- Polish analysts and a part of the political scene are linking the South Ossetia crisis to that in Kosovo, Beta says.

The current armed conflict in the breakaway Georgian region is seen as the Russian answer to the western recognition of Kosovo Albanians' unilateral declaration of independence, the Polish media are saying.

"This is the Russian answer to the recognition of Kosovo. That recognition was in fact a gift to Russia," Polish People's Party European MP Janusz Wojciechowski told TVN24.

Wojciechowski, whose party is a partner in Donald Tusk's cabinet, warned that the case of Kosovo, where a part of the international community accepted the declaration of secession, "shows that it cannot be counted on double standards to pass".

"Russia is using it now", he concluded.

Warnings that the recognition of Kosovo will serve to the detriment of Georgia were heard in Poland as early as February this year.

Bearing in mind the risks for Poland's allies in the Caucasus, Georgia above all, Warsaw's recognition of the Kosovo Albanians' secession was described as an irresponsible move by the legendary anti-communist leader and former Polish president, Lech Walesa.

"Recognizing Kosovo will bring nothing but trouble. No one can be denied the right to self-determination, but only within the bounds of common sense," he was quoted as saying at the time.

Walesa stressed in his statements to the Polish media that Kosovo was "with its irresponsible behavior, causing new divisions in Europe and globally and undermining international relations".


TOPICS: Extended News; Foreign Affairs; Russia
KEYWORDS: geopolitics; georgia; kosovo; neocons; payback; russia; southossetia
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1 posted on 08/11/2008 10:29:32 AM PDT by Bokababe
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To: joan; Smartass; zagor-te-nej; Lion in Winter; Honorary Serb; jb6; Incorrigible; DTA; vooch; ...

2 posted on 08/11/2008 10:31:09 AM PDT by Bokababe ( http://www.savekosovo.org)
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To: Bokababe
"Recognizing Kosovo will bring nothing but trouble. No one can be denied the right to self-determination, but only within the bounds of common sense," he was quoted as saying at the time."

As always, Lech Walesa succinctly puts into perspective what should have been on all of these state government head's minds. Including George Bush. What was he thinking when he compounded Bill Clinton's mistakes?
3 posted on 08/11/2008 10:36:51 AM PDT by Old Teufel Hunden
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To: Old Teufel Hunden

What was he thinking when he compounded Bill Clinton’s mistakes? ...........appeasement of muslims...........


4 posted on 08/11/2008 10:38:32 AM PDT by Red Badger (All that carbon in all that oil and coal was once in the atmosphere. We're just putting it back.....)
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To: Bokababe

No ****!!!!! You mean, like somebody done figured it out or something like that??


5 posted on 08/11/2008 10:39:55 AM PDT by damondonion
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To: Red Badger
"appeasement of muslims"

If that's the case, we better get our women to all wear hajabs and everyone convert to Islam, then pass sharia law. That's what its going to take to appease the radical muslims.
6 posted on 08/11/2008 10:40:41 AM PDT by Old Teufel Hunden
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To: Bokababe

If it’s payback for Kosovo, why are the Russians not restricting their invasion to South Ossetia?


7 posted on 08/11/2008 10:41:52 AM PDT by Unam Sanctam
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To: All

I mean, freedom and independence are wonderful, provided you do it on your own property. What we have with Kosovo is a case of slow-motion land theft, which isn’t exactly the same thing.


8 posted on 08/11/2008 10:42:22 AM PDT by damondonion
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To: Old Teufel Hunden

Sadly, that is so. The Crusades never ended...........


9 posted on 08/11/2008 10:43:02 AM PDT by Red Badger (All that carbon in all that oil and coal was once in the atmosphere. We're just putting it back.....)
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To: Old Teufel Hunden

Lech wasn’t the only person who thought we were idiots to back Kosovoan independence. It was a thumb in Russia’s eye for one thing. It was totally unnecessary.


10 posted on 08/11/2008 10:45:01 AM PDT by DoughtyOne (We're a non Soros non lefitst supporting maverick Gang of 2, who won't be voting for McCain.)
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To: Unam Sanctam
Exactly... That was just a lame excuse... All of South Ossetia has less than 100,000 folks... Kosovo is 2 million...

If it's payback, why is the sKum Russian govt deep into the heart of Georgia?

11 posted on 08/11/2008 10:45:17 AM PDT by NYC Republican (Infuriate the MSM- Vote for McCain)
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To: Bokababe

I look forward to Georgia and Kosovo joining NATO.


12 posted on 08/11/2008 10:46:28 AM PDT by HAL9000 ("No one made you run for president, girl."- Bill Clinton)
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To: NYC Republican

If it’s payback, why is the sKum Russian govt deep into the heart of Georgia?


to show bordering countries that the west will not protect them.


13 posted on 08/11/2008 10:49:01 AM PDT by austrian
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To: HAL9000

Just imagine that Georgia entered NATo in Bucharest summit some weeks ago?
Amd Sakashvilli AS NATO country- president attacked Russian troops.

Just how could Bush convince Putin that US are not behind deaths of Russian soldiers?

And how would Russians react?


14 posted on 08/11/2008 10:53:59 AM PDT by kronos77 (Kosovo is Serbian Jerusalem. No Serbia without Kosovo.)
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To: DoughtyOne

Lech wasn’t the only person who thought we were idiots to back Kosovoan independence. It was a thumb in Russia’s eye for one thing. It was totally unnecessary.


I never understood the Kosovo thing. Never. Not for one minute. It never made any sense.

But maybe the muzzies blackmailed Krinton and Blair - said liberate Kosovo or else? Krinton and Blair did this. And then maybe *that’s* what all the stuffing of documents into pants had to do with during the 9/11 inquiry.

Krinton gets “Peace in our Time” and the “Peace Dividend”, the muzzies get a toehold in the soft underbelly of Europe, aka the Balkans, and we get attacked on 9/11 after Krinton leaves office. And then when the 9/11 “commission” starts asking question Sandy Burgler and Jamie Gore-Lick are around to make sure none of this sees the light of day.

Makes about as much sense as anything else.


15 posted on 08/11/2008 10:54:12 AM PDT by 2 Kool 2 Be 4-Gotten
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To: DoughtyOne
"It was a thumb in Russia’s eye for one thing."

I agree. I thought it was so stupid for Bush to compound Clinton's idiocy from 1999. I'm all for putting a thumb in Russia's eye, but there has to be a legitimate reason. A bunch of Moslems that are now going to be a welfare state of the UN is not a reason. Kosovo is about the size of L.A. Is that a reason to get Russia pissed at us?? Does Kosovo actually produce anything? Probably Al Quada members now.
16 posted on 08/11/2008 10:56:52 AM PDT by Old Teufel Hunden
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To: 2 Kool 2 Be 4-Gotten

When it comes to the Clintons, trying to figure out what caused them to do things is an exercise in futility. It doesn’t have to make sense. It probably doesn’t. That doesn’t mean they get a free pass. It just means that’s how bad their rule is.

I just don’t understand why Bush recognized Kosovoan independence right away. We should expect Bush’s moves to make sense. This sure didn’t.


17 posted on 08/11/2008 10:59:19 AM PDT by DoughtyOne (We're a non Soros non lefitst supporting maverick Gang of 2, who won't be voting for McCain.)
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To: Old Teufel Hunden

Sounds about right to me. I agree.


18 posted on 08/11/2008 11:00:44 AM PDT by DoughtyOne (We're a non Soros non lefitst supporting maverick Gang of 2, who won't be voting for McCain.)
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To: NYC Republican
It is payback, its payback for building a US base in Kosovo and encroaching on Russia's backyard. Basically they are making a statement to the US that it won't put up with US meddling anymore.

Bush will not do one thing to help Georgia, the Russians are making the US look impotent.

19 posted on 08/11/2008 11:04:19 AM PDT by montyspython (Love that chicken from Popeye's)
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To: Bokababe
"South Ossetia, payback for Kosovo"

And for advancing the boundaries of NATO into former Warsaw pact nations and especially into former Soviet Republics. From the Russian point of view, the west gave the Slavs (Serbs) the finger when taking Kosovo from them. They continue to Give the Russians the finger by inviting former Soviet Republics into NATO. Western globalists want Russia's resources. This is the Bush-Clinton-Bush legacy. They are trading the hopes of former Soviet Republics to be free of the Bear for access to cheap resources. Russia wants these for itself.

So Bush tells Putie to stop it. Putie says F'k you. Now who wants to send their kids to fight for the interests of wealthy, greedy globalists? Not I. Let the European globalists send their kids to fight.

20 posted on 08/11/2008 11:09:54 AM PDT by LoneRangerMassachusetts
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To: Unam Sanctam

I don’t think NATO limited it’s operations only to targets inside Kosovo. Didn’t we bomb Belgrade? Or am I wrong?

Not that it matters. It looks to me like Georgia overplayed its hand badly, giving Russia a useful pretext to reassert itself in the region.

Is there any chance Georgia is participating in an oil pipeline project that would bypass Russia?


21 posted on 08/11/2008 11:15:45 AM PDT by swain_forkbeard (Rationality may not be sufficient, but it is necessary.)
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To: Old Teufel Hunden
"appeasement of muslims"

If that's the case, we better get our women to all wear hajabs and everyone convert to Islam, then pass sharia law. That's what its going to take to appease the radical muslims.

Our Country, and Europe, are being prepared for just that right now.

22 posted on 08/11/2008 11:16:40 AM PDT by Prokopton
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To: Bokababe

BJ Clinton’s screw up of Kosovo continues to pay negative dividends and will for many years to come.


23 posted on 08/11/2008 11:16:48 AM PDT by LowTaxesEqualProsperity
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To: NYC Republican
from Wiki:

"South Ossetians nearly unanimously approved a referendum on November 12, 2006 opting for independence from Georgia. The referendum was hugely popular, winning between 98 and 99 percent of the ballots, flag waving and celebration marked were seen across South Ossetia, but elsewhere observers were less enthusiastic. International critics claimed that the move could worsen regional tensions, and the Tblisi government thoroughly discounted the results."

So if Georgia had a right to split from Russia (which I agree that it did), then why doesn't S. Ossetia have the same right? It has apparently been an autonomous province for a long time, and the Ossetians even have their own language. They aren't "invaders" from somewhere else trying to steal territory, they are simply claiming the right to decide who they want to ally themselves with.

Everyone seems to forget that Georgia initiated this military action by attacking S. Ossetian civilians and peacekeepers in a region that had been peaceful for a number of years. As for why the Russians are "striking deep into the heart of Georgia", the answer is to teach Georgians a lesson. I may not like that lesson, but I understand it.

A better question would be: "Why did Georgia attack, given she knew that her odds were that she would fare badly in this fight against Russia?" To me, that is the $64,000 question. Did she think that the US or NATO would ride in on a white horse to save her?

24 posted on 08/11/2008 11:20:27 AM PDT by Bokababe ( http://www.savekosovo.org)
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To: NYC Republican

Because it can!

Whos going to den the bear, is the question that Putin is asking everyone. Their tanks have invaded Georgia proper and laid waste to several towns.

Now, knowing full well that he was vulnerable, why did Saakashvili put his people into this mess? Was he not thinking? He could have waited till he got NATO accession!


25 posted on 08/11/2008 11:21:04 AM PDT by ketelone
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To: Bokababe
Russia's (i.e., Putin's) crimes don't need any explanations or apologizes. These types of things remind me of whenever the Soviets did something how people always blamed the West. Putin's an evil bastard. That's all.
26 posted on 08/11/2008 11:21:25 AM PDT by elhombrelibre (Obama: vain, mercurial, inexperienced, aloof, condescending, doctrinaire, and Reverend Wright's son.)
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To: DoughtyOne

The clintons remain inscrutable in most cases because they are very good at covering up and suppressing evidence. Can you say Vince Foster? That doesn’t mean we won’t one day know more of their shenanigans than we know now, it just means they have to this point covered their tracks remarkably well. Still, inquiring minds want to know.


27 posted on 08/11/2008 11:23:47 AM PDT by 2 Kool 2 Be 4-Gotten
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To: Prokopton
"Our Country, and Europe, are being prepared for just that right now."

We need an updated version of the movie Red Dawn with the new enemy.
28 posted on 08/11/2008 11:24:22 AM PDT by Old Teufel Hunden
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To: Bokababe
Everyone seems to forget that Georgia initiated this military action by attacking S. Ossetian civilians and peacekeepers in a region that had been peaceful for a number of years

The South Ossetians fired artillery at the Georgians from the safety of a city. The Georgians - not as copacetic in their own destruction as Olmert's Israel - fired back. Hence the talk of massacres and so forth, when in fact the Ossetians are wearing their own civilians as body armor.

This tactic - of firing from the midst of civilian concentrations - has been made infamous by Hamas, Hezbollah and so on. It's not surprising to see Russian agents using the same tactic - the KGB made Arafat, and the KGB (with no name change) are running South Ossetia today.

29 posted on 08/11/2008 11:28:41 AM PDT by agere_contra
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To: Bokababe

There’s only about 100,000 or so people who live in this province. Should part of North Dakota be allowed to break off from the U.S.? How about these Native Americans that want to break off in South Dakota? As Lech Walesa said when Kosovo broke off. Everyone should be allowed self determination within reason.

The real reason is not for them to become their own country. The eventual reason is to become part of Russia and for Russia to destablize Georgia because they want Georgia, Ukraine, Bellarus et al.. back...


30 posted on 08/11/2008 11:30:49 AM PDT by Old Teufel Hunden
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To: 2 Kool 2 Be 4-Gotten

I agree, and I can’t wait...


31 posted on 08/11/2008 11:32:57 AM PDT by DoughtyOne (We're a non Soros non lefitst supporting maverick Gang of 2, who won't be voting for McCain.)
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To: Old Teufel Hunden
We need an updated version of the movie Red Dawn with the new enemy.

In Red Dawn the enemy poured across the Mexican border. Hmmmm....

32 posted on 08/11/2008 11:34:57 AM PDT by Prokopton
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To: Old Teufel Hunden
A bunch of Moslems that are now going to be a welfare state of the UN is not a reason. Kosovo is about the size of L.A. Is that a reason to get Russia pissed at us?? Does Kosovo actually produce anything? Probably Al Quada members now.

The "reason" was to encroach on Slavic space that we see as potentially being the "traditional Russian sphere of influence" and bait Russia by planting the second largest US military structure in the world Camp Bondsteel, on Serbian soil, without Serbia's permission.

The plans were on the table for building Camp Bondsteel in Kosovo, even prior to the 1999 NATO Bombing of Yugoslavia. And Bondsteel started going up right after the bombing. That's why, in retrospect, Bush HAD to grant Kosovo independence, after the fact. We weren't going to tear Bondsteel down and we couldn't have a military base on Serbia's soil without her permission -- so the solution was to steal the land from Serbia and give it to the Albanians who liked having us in the neighborhood to use against the Serbs.

Yes, it really was that cynical.

33 posted on 08/11/2008 11:35:22 AM PDT by Bokababe ( http://www.savekosovo.org)
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To: Bokababe

So you’re saying that Bush had no choice. Well Camp Bondsteel needs to come down just as the Ruskies need to leave Georgia. If Albania wants us in the area, we need to start negotiating a SOFA with them and build a base there. In fact, a base there would be better than in Kosovo because we have access to the Adriatic sea.

Earlier in the year when Bush’s state department recognized Kosovo I was flabbergasted and could not understand why. This may help explain things.


34 posted on 08/11/2008 11:40:23 AM PDT by Old Teufel Hunden
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To: agere_contra
"The South Ossetians fired artillery at the Georgians from the safety of a city. The Georgians - not as copacetic in their own destruction as Olmert's Israel - fired back. Hence the talk of massacres and so forth, when in fact the Ossetians are wearing their own civilians as body armor.

Have you got any links on this? Because everything I am reading, including the anti-Russia stuff, is saying that Georgia started it.

I am just coming up to speed on the Georgia/ S. Ossetia/Russia political situation. I am far from expert on it. I am, however, determined to take a fair look at it without knee-jerk assuming things or grabbing on to old stereotypes and assuming that they apply here.

35 posted on 08/11/2008 11:41:28 AM PDT by Bokababe ( http://www.savekosovo.org)
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To: Old Teufel Hunden
"So you’re saying that Bush had no choice. "

Actually, Bush had a choice between "being ethical" -- or "riding that Kosovo horse in the direction that it was already going even if it was off a cliff."

He chose the latter.

That's why it would not shock me to see a US hand in what's going with Georgia & Russia. Georgia would have had to be completely insane to have started this fight with Russia, without some behind the scenes plan for saving itself.

36 posted on 08/11/2008 11:51:16 AM PDT by Bokababe ( http://www.savekosovo.org)
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To: Bokababe
Warnings that the recognition of Kosovo will serve to the detriment of Georgia were heard in Poland as early as February this year.

This is kind of rich, coming from Poland...

37 posted on 08/11/2008 11:54:22 AM PDT by SunStar (Democrats piss me off!)
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To: swain_forkbeard
"Is there any chance Georgia is participating in an oil pipeline project that would bypass Russia?

Yes, I was reading something about that yesterday. I'll see if I can find the links.

38 posted on 08/11/2008 11:55:51 AM PDT by Bokababe ( http://www.savekosovo.org)
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To: kronos77
Just imagine that Georgia entered NATo in Bucharest summit some weeks ago?
Amd Sakashvilli AS NATO country- president attacked Russian troops.
Just how could Bush convince Putin that US are not behind deaths of Russian soldiers?
And how would Russians react?


More importantly, how would NATO react to a member country being attacked and invaded by bloodthirsty Russian troops?
39 posted on 08/11/2008 11:56:34 AM PDT by SunStar (Democrats piss me off!)
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To: kronos77
THE GOALS BEHIND MOSCOW’S PROXY OFFENSIVE IN SOUTH OSSETIA
http://www.jamestown.org/edm/article.php?article_id=2373298
40 posted on 08/11/2008 11:57:42 AM PDT by SunStar (Democrats piss me off!)
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To: swain_forkbeard
Didn’t we bomb Belgrade?

One mistaken bombing of the Chinese embassy does not an invasion of Serbia proper make.

41 posted on 08/11/2008 12:00:40 PM PDT by Unam Sanctam
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To: Bokababe

Georgia, Russia and Oil:

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/950c5612-66f6-11dd-808f-0000779fd18c.html

http://www.energybulletin.net/node/46173

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/08/09/MNDG127U55.DTL


42 posted on 08/11/2008 12:04:58 PM PDT by Bokababe ( http://www.savekosovo.org)
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To: Bokababe

Georgia, Russia and Oil:

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/950c5612-66f6-11dd-808f-0000779fd18c.html

http://www.energybulletin.net/node/46173

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/08/09/MNDG127U55.DTL


43 posted on 08/11/2008 12:05:00 PM PDT by Bokababe ( http://www.savekosovo.org)
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To: Bokababe

I’m not prepared to believe for one second that this is about South Ossetia or about Kosovo. In my humble opinion: this is about NATO. A NATO-allied Georgia with access to oil and the revenue it would bring, would be able to field a significant force on Russia’s southern border. I believe that this is a calculated move to either eliminate Georgia entirely or otherwise make it militarily useless to NATO.

There are a couple of potential intentions I can surmise on the part of the Russians, but all would have the effect of militarily neutralizing Georgia:

1. Completely take over the country and install a puppet regime.
2. Proceed to the Armenian border (assuming they plan to stop there!), splitting the country in two.
- This denies Georgia Black Sea port access, which prevents (1) NATO coming to their aid by sea and (2) denies them revenue.
- This also allows Russia to cut the oil pipeline from Georgia to Turkey which denies them oil revenue.

That’s not to say that I’m an apologist for Russia (quite the opposite!) but I think that this is what they’re aiming at. I don’t know what can be done for Georgia at this point (hightail it from Turkey to secure the pipeline?), but one thing we should do ASAP is fast-track Ukraine’s NATO MAP. That needs to be issued yesterday.


44 posted on 08/11/2008 12:07:55 PM PDT by Windcatcher (Obama's propaganda is being fashioned by COMMUNISTS. That's enough for any American to stop him!)
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To: Unam Sanctam
One mistaken bombing of the Chinese embassy does not an invasion of Serbia proper make.

NATO did more than that - I saw estimates of serbian civilian deaths in excess of 2000 from bombings outside Kosovo.

45 posted on 08/11/2008 12:16:01 PM PDT by skeeter
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To: montyspython

Let’s take your assumption for a second, that it was payback (no way it could be)... Doesn’t this take away Serbia’s Russian support for keeping Kosovo? If they had the high moral ground before, saying it shouldn’t be dissolved, that’s gone now


46 posted on 08/11/2008 12:22:02 PM PDT by NYC Republican (Infuriate the MSM- Vote for McCain)
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To: Bokababe; Unam Sanctam
The oil -- and natural gas -- pipelines  are very much a part of Russia's strategy.

Georgia conflict stokes energy supply concerns

Western Concern Grows Over Oil, Gas Pipes Through Georgia 

 

 

47 posted on 08/11/2008 12:22:08 PM PDT by browardchad
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To: Windcatcher; All
Of course not... That's all a ruse... What you're seeing here is a Serb-website... And Serb-sympathizers trying to be opportunistic and using the Kosovo issue to their advantage... plain and simple...

If it was just about S. Ossethia, then they'd stop there... Also, if it was about S.O., then it takes away any claim Russia had about Kosovo, cause they just did the same thing (yet far worse)..

48 posted on 08/11/2008 12:25:01 PM PDT by NYC Republican (Infuriate the MSM- Vote for McCain)
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To: Old Teufel Hunden

“Everyone should be allowed self determination within reason.”

Sure. Just as long as it’s MY version of reason.


49 posted on 08/11/2008 12:29:58 PM PDT by swain_forkbeard (Rationality may not be sufficient, but it is necessary.)
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To: NYC Republican

When the shooting starts, moral high ground is for chumps. The Russians no doubt prefer to occupy the physical high ground, for their artillery.


50 posted on 08/11/2008 12:32:19 PM PDT by swain_forkbeard (Rationality may not be sufficient, but it is necessary.)
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