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Rice Wants Georgia to Sign Cease-Fire Despite Concessions to Russia
AP by way of ABC News ^ | August 15, 2008 | Matthew Lee

Posted on 08/15/2008 3:12:08 AM PDT by cyberslave

Choosing expediency over principle, the United States and its allies are pushing Georgia's pro-Western government to accept major concessions in a cease-fire with Russia.

Despite warnings of serious consequences for Russia for its invasion of the former Soviet republic, Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice heads to Georgia on Friday to try to persuade its leadership to agree to a deal that expands the mandate of Russian troops on Georgian territory.

The French-mediated proposal calls for the immediate withdrawal of Russian combat troops from Georgia, but allows Russian peacekeepers who were in the flashpoint separatist area of South Ossetia before last week's explosion of violence to remain and take a greater role there.

The draft document also does not commit Russia to respecting Georgia's "territorial integrity" but rather refers to Georgian "independence" and "sovereignty," meaning Moscow does not necessarily accept that South Ossetia and another disputed region, Abkhazia, are Georgian.

The proposed cease-fire appears to back down on previous demands from the United States and its European allies that Russia halt all military activity in Georgia and that Georgia's "territorial integrity" must be respected.

(Excerpt) Read more at abcnews.go.com ...


TOPICS: Breaking News; Foreign Affairs; News/Current Events; Russia
KEYWORDS: ceasefire; condi; condirice; geopolitics; georgia; putin; rice; russia
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Bet GW is saying: "Gonna let them up gently after I've beaten them." Ah, peace in our time!

The only problem is that the plan isn't what the Russians want...they want it all. Which means that any plan that doesn't involve them having control of the government and the pipeline is really no plan.

As long as Rice/Bush continue to stumble and mumble around and Gates keeps on telling everyone that were not sending military aid. The Russians will become more adamant in their demands.

Bottom line - we loose they win. And when Obama becomes President, partially because of all this, as well as other matters, then we loose permanently. Or at least until 2012,the next time I intend to vote, when the Republican's regain control of the House. By that time we should however all be walking around the streets in our old clothes, penniless, looking for work. Which isn't too far from where we stand today under 8 years of GW. If we had only been able to nominate Forbes for President in 2000 (blame Rush Limbaugh and the conservative establishment for that because they feared McCain more than they wanted a real conservative to win) we'd be celebrating eight years on unparalleled American growth. Yes, even greater than that under Ronald Reagan because we had a Republican Congress for most of it, although it wasn't used at all. Instead we're overjoyed that we're now paying a penny less than $4.00 a gallon for gasoline. Sing Hallelujah ! Amen. P.S. Expect oil prices to rise precipitously when the Russians get to Tbilisi and the pipeline falls into their hands that's why the oil futures have been increasing in price during the past week after nearly a month of decline !

1 posted on 08/15/2008 3:12:09 AM PDT by cyberslave
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To: cyberslave

” Choosing expediency over principle, the United States and its allies are pushing Georgia’s pro-Western government to accept major concessions in a cease-fire with Russia. “

That is an extrememly un-’AP’-ish sentence......


2 posted on 08/15/2008 3:19:24 AM PDT by Uncle Ike (Sometimes I sets and thinks, and sometimes I jus' sets.........)
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To: cyberslave
we'd be celebrating eight years on unparalleled American growth.

Are you attempting to argue that if we had nominated Forbes, 9-11 would not have happened? Or do you discount its effect on the economy?

By that time we should however all be walking around the streets in our old clothes, penniless, looking for work. Which isn't too far from where we stand today under 8 years of GW.

Who are you calling "we?" Members of the Cinderella Man fan club? I am doing just fine, and everyone I know is doing just fine.
3 posted on 08/15/2008 3:20:11 AM PDT by A Balrog of Morgoth (QMC(SW) USN........ CG21 DD988 FFG34 PC6 ARS53)
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To: cyberslave

That cracks me up. Yeah, we are paying $3.94 instead of $4.00. Crisis over!

For Bush to put forth a resolution that does not demand Russia respect the lines of Georgia, not just the concept of the government, this isn’t over.

Ridiculous. World, be warned. A Bush led America is now a weeny unless they are fighting people trapped in the 17th century.

And I say that a huge supporter of President Bush. Just really dissapointed in him right now with this situation.


4 posted on 08/15/2008 3:49:44 AM PDT by autumnraine
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To: cyberslave
"I am once again proud to be a Russian,
even if I am burning in Hell"

Image Hosted by ImageShack.us
5 posted on 08/15/2008 3:50:54 AM PDT by mkjessup
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To: cyberslave

Forbes would have been able to win against the Gore-acle?
Don’t think so....but I tend to agree that the weenies have been let lose to give-up georgia...jeez what a bunch with no spine, the Rice Sarkosy Gates team of mealy mouth apparatcheks!


6 posted on 08/15/2008 3:57:49 AM PDT by iopscusa (El Vaquero. (SC Lowcountry Cowboy))
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To: iopscusa
Rice Sarkosy Gates team of mealy mouth apparatcheks!

What would you have them do? The only person there with independent power is Sarkozy, since he is the president of a country. Rice and Gates are subordinates of president Bush, yet they are somehow expected to start launching LACMs? If they are mealy mouth apparatcheks, what about their boss?

7 posted on 08/15/2008 4:01:48 AM PDT by spetznaz (Nuclear-tipped Ballistic Missiles: The Ultimate Phallic Symbol)
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To: cyberslave
As long as Rice/Bush continue to stumble and mumble around and Gates keeps on telling everyone that were not sending military aid. The Russians will become more adamant in their demands.

Right on! And if we need any more proof of this misguided, "twist your arm--cave to the enemy" Foreign Policy "strategy," we need look no further than the Islmaofacist situation in the Middle East and Condi Clueless and George (I DESPERATELY WANT A LEGACY) Bush's insistence that Israel make ALL the concessions to the PA, all the while, ignoring the Fatah and Hamas terrorists acts against Israel. See how well that's worked???

8 posted on 08/15/2008 4:09:14 AM PDT by Conservative Vermont Vet ((One of ONLY 37 Conservatives in the People's Republic of Vermont. Socialists and Progressives All))
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To: cyberslave

A couple of things.

You frustration with W and bias against him is noted.

Russia is Condi’s specialty.

Peace is often offered prior to an attack.

There are things going on that you don’t know.


9 posted on 08/15/2008 4:35:00 AM PDT by WorkerbeeCitizen (Seinfeld was a show about nothing - so is Obama.)
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To: WorkerbeeCitizen
Here is what is going on that you don't know and apparently neither does our Gub’ment.
Russia won't move its forces because they are eventually headed to Iran. From Iran they will turn West into Syria and Lebanon cutting off Turkey to the South and Isolating Iraq. The next front will be the Ukraine, they have a large Russian population so defending themselves will be doubly difficult. From Ukraine the Russians will push through Romania and Bulgaria encircling the Turks and cutting off the oil and gas supplies to Europe. Putin thinks he can win just as did Hitler no matter what we may think. Turkey will be coerced to leave NATO and Condi will still be waiving an olive branch. Imagine the Arsenal of Democracy bringing an olive branch to a gun fight.
10 posted on 08/15/2008 4:48:39 AM PDT by Camel Joe (liberal=socialist=royalist/imperialist pawn=enemy of Freedom)
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To: cyberslave

So how do you say ‘appeasement’ in Russian?

Looks to me like Dr. Rice is her Middle East model (asking Israel to give concessions to Palestinians in the name of peace) in Georgia.


11 posted on 08/15/2008 4:52:59 AM PDT by Ben Reyes
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To: Ben Reyes

But I thought Rice’s claim to fame is that she’s an expert on Russia and Russians. All that, and this is the best she can do?


12 posted on 08/15/2008 4:56:47 AM PDT by savedbygrace (SECURE THE BORDERS FIRST (I'M YELLING ON PURPOSE))
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To: WorkerbeeCitizen

“Russia is Condi’s specialty.

Peace is often offered prior to an attack.

There are things going on that you don’t know.”

....You are correct.


13 posted on 08/15/2008 5:02:22 AM PDT by SumProVita ("Cogito ergo sum pro vita." .....updated Descartes)
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To: Camel Joe

Sounds like a plan ok - How do you know this?
A few holes in it though;
This plan assumes that Iran, Lebanon and Syria will sit idly by and allow it - or do you figure they will ally?
Turkey will be deluded into leaving NATO
and, the Ukraine Russians really want to governed by Russia after all (Russians in the Ukraine are there for a reason, its not Russia).

Also, I think China is eying Iran and parts of Russia and may not like Russia moving in and setting up shop.

I think your assumption about the US setting idly by as a spectator is misguided also.

But, time will tell.


14 posted on 08/15/2008 5:08:13 AM PDT by WorkerbeeCitizen (Seinfeld was a show about nothing - so is Obama.)
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To: cyberslave
Sounds like the Georgians should sign. They will either give up a couple provinces with a 6 mile buffer or they may very well lose their whole country. The one thing that should be demanded from Russia is out of Gori with no BS “diplomatic” language.
15 posted on 08/15/2008 5:36:02 AM PDT by tobyhill (fraud -noun;(1)deceit, trickery, sharp practice, or breach of confidence, (2) Obama)
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To: WorkerbeeCitizen
There are things going on that you don’t know.

That's what I'm hoping. Anything that allows Russia to impinge on Georgia's sovereignty is unacceptable. Appeasement never works. Never.

16 posted on 08/15/2008 5:39:30 AM PDT by American Quilter (The urge to save humanity is nearly always a cover for the urge to rule. - H. L. Mencken)
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To: American Quilter

I hope so too.

What I find interesting is that Condi was real quick to put a peace offering on the table, it made it appear that she is getting the formalities out of the way right up front.


17 posted on 08/15/2008 5:44:52 AM PDT by WorkerbeeCitizen (Seinfeld was a show about nothing - so is Obama.)
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To: Camel Joe

“Russia won’t move its forces because they are eventually headed to Iran. “

Why is there a party in Tehran? They don’t have vodka there.

If this is true, we are holding a bad hand here and pushing Georgia into something short of Finlandization is not a winner.

Frankly, this stinks.


18 posted on 08/15/2008 5:55:10 AM PDT by romanesq
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To: WorkerbeeCitizen

Having been to Kiev, I can tell you Russian emigre or not, you see only the blue and yellow flags of Ukraine. And Russian flags are not welcome.

If force was tried in Ukraine, Ukraine would fight. I’m sure of it.


19 posted on 08/15/2008 5:56:52 AM PDT by romanesq
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To: WorkerbeeCitizen

They are already allied, where do you suppose Iran got those centrifuges from and the expertise to go along with it?


20 posted on 08/15/2008 6:00:59 AM PDT by Camel Joe (liberal=socialist=royalist/imperialist pawn=enemy of Freedom)
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To: Ben Reyes
So how do you say ‘appeasement’ in Russian?

Appeasment beats nuclear war and there's nothing in Russia's backyard that is worth the deaths of American ground troops.

Wisdom involves knowing when not to fight.

21 posted on 08/15/2008 6:02:27 AM PDT by NeoCaveman (El Conservo Tribal name "Avoids Fort Marcy Park")
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To: tobyhill; WorkerbeeCitizen; American Quilter

General Travis drew the line in the sand at the Alamo, not the Rio Grande.

The border ended up being the Rio Grande.

Now we have two ethnic areas nobody had ever heard of being contested by whom? The Georgians? NO. They lost control of those areas 10-15 YEARS ago.

The Russians are just filling in reality.

How boring to hear that because the US offers a solution to save Gori, uncut the country in two, keep Tbilisi as a thorn in the side of the Russians, keep the pipeline, and keep us from getting involved in all-out thermonuclear war....well...this brings calls on FR to have had Steve Freaking Forbes run the country instead of W?

Idiotic. And all this geo-strategic wisdom from people who don’t know the difference between the words “lose” and “loose.”


22 posted on 08/15/2008 6:08:06 AM PDT by sam_paine (X .................................)
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To: Camel Joe

Buying stuff from Russia is not the same as being allied with Russia - it simply means that they have a business arrangement.

Ahmanutjob has too big an ego to let someone just waltz in and take over the place.
Russians are infidels and in Iran’s way of thinking, will die or bow to Islam.

Also, Russia got its collective hats handed to them by Afghanistan (Islam) and more than likely will rethink that move.


23 posted on 08/15/2008 6:08:56 AM PDT by WorkerbeeCitizen (Seinfeld was a show about nothing - so is Obama.)
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To: NeoCaveman; Ben Reyes
Wisdom involves knowing when not to fight.

True. And to know when to quit while you're ahead.

Suppose we land the 4th ID and take a few hundred or few thousand casualties.

Then we hand over S. Osettia...to whom?

To Tbilisi? Well, oops. Tbilisi wasn't able to govern those provinces before and had resorted to shelling them.

If the Georgians couldn't keep a coherent republic, then we have no business trying to make one.

If the Iraqis had not been able to get the Sunni/Shia/Kurds together in the parliament, then we'd have had no business trying to force a unified country there, either.

24 posted on 08/15/2008 6:14:07 AM PDT by sam_paine (X .................................)
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To: WorkerbeeCitizen
Russia is Condi’s specialty.

That makes her not just an incompetent but an incompetent with a Russian specialty.
But she is still the second worst Secretary Of State in living memory

The country cannot take any more Affirmative Action appointees running the State Department.
We need someone in this important position who possesses qualifications other than the color of their skin or their sexual equipment.

25 posted on 08/15/2008 6:14:28 AM PDT by Iron Munro (Suppose you were an idiot, and suppose you were a member of Congress; but I repeat myself.)
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To: Iron Munro

I agree that Condi has not been what I had hoped for but the bottom line is that she must further the Presidents agenda - whatever that is and I’d like to assume it is in America’s best interest, naive I know.


26 posted on 08/15/2008 6:20:01 AM PDT by WorkerbeeCitizen (Seinfeld was a show about nothing - so is Obama.)
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To: sam_paine

hmmmm - let loose the dogs of war - or we will lose?


27 posted on 08/15/2008 6:21:00 AM PDT by WorkerbeeCitizen (Seinfeld was a show about nothing - so is Obama.)
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To: sam_paine

Yup. The Georginas lost South Osettia long before the Ruskies rolled their troops in.

Why fight against reality, especially when there is no national interest involved.


28 posted on 08/15/2008 6:25:11 AM PDT by NeoCaveman (El Conservo Tribal name "Avoids Fort Marcy Park")
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To: All

Anything with a signature from those commie bullies isn’t worth the paper it’s printed on.
It is about to get very interesting.


29 posted on 08/15/2008 6:33:14 AM PDT by newnhdad
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To: WorkerbeeCitizen
There are things going on that you don’t know.

Yep. I don't think that Bush is going to throw Georgia under the bus on this. He knows that there is far too much at stake in the bigger picture.

30 posted on 08/15/2008 6:47:28 AM PDT by Virginia Ridgerunner ("We must not forget that there is a war on and our troops are in the thick of it!"--Duncan Hunter)
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To: romanesq
I agree that they would fight but the saboteurs would leave the outcome in doubt.
31 posted on 08/15/2008 6:54:05 AM PDT by Camel Joe (liberal=socialist=royalist/imperialist pawn=enemy of Freedom)
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To: Camel Joe

Well of course there would be attempts at sabotage but from what I saw during the Orange Revolution, even then they were prepared for such attempts.

They kept strong discipline and organization in the tent city on the promenade near the central square. They had unity and made sure not to allow any troublemakers infiltrate and discredit their efforts.

Would expect more of the same from a military operation. If it came down to that, it would be very, very ugly. But then again, Putin has already revealed that now to the world, if anyone had any doubts.

The KGB is alive and well.


32 posted on 08/15/2008 7:01:25 AM PDT by romanesq
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To: WorkerbeeCitizen

I do not believe that an alliance quite equates Vlad coming in and taking over the place.


33 posted on 08/15/2008 7:01:57 AM PDT by Camel Joe (liberal=socialist=royalist/imperialist pawn=enemy of Freedom)
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To: romanesq

Agreed, but we can accept nothing less than the Russians and their equipment be on the Northern end of that tunnel.


34 posted on 08/15/2008 7:04:29 AM PDT by Camel Joe (liberal=socialist=royalist/imperialist pawn=enemy of Freedom)
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To: Camel Joe

Possible, though we might draw the line at the Ukraine. And unlike Georgia, they’ve got a credible military. Another option, Armenia, perhaps Azerbaijan or both, which provides a land link to Iran and with Syria also isolates Turkey from the east while minimizing the risk of interference from the west. Lots of options, but only if they can hold Georgia, in fact or defacto.


35 posted on 08/15/2008 7:14:58 AM PDT by SJackson (Sell San Francisco to China to finance Obama health care, Bill O'Reilly)
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To: WorkerbeeCitizen

Yep! And losers are looser with their war “jaw-jaw.”


36 posted on 08/15/2008 7:16:41 AM PDT by sam_paine (X .................................)
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To: Virginia Ridgerunner; WorkerbeeCitizen
I don't think that Bush is going to throw Georgia under the bus on this.

So far, so good as can be expected.

US/Western national interests end at the end of that pipeline[NOTE] and an unsplit friendly buffer govt in Tbilisi between Russia and Turkey which is connected to the black sea.

Sounds like Gates & Condi are keeping that line without getting Americans killed. As long as Tbilisi is not annexed, Russia still has the SAME political thorn in her side, and we don't have to defend/deal with a heavily militarized border between Russia and Turkey.

I don't see how forcing Osettians to submit immediately to a Georgian govt that has let them be 'autonomous' for a decade is in US national interests. Is it?

[NOTE] I think it's interesting that this pipeline which everyone says is SOOOO critical to Europe, etc, has been SHUT DOWN for weeks before this crisis due to some kind of turkish related terrorists. Regardless of who broke it, it's OBVIOUSLY not that damn critical if there's no oil running through it and the world oil market is still fat dumb and happy and dropping prices. ?????

37 posted on 08/15/2008 7:27:56 AM PDT by sam_paine (X .................................)
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To: cyberslave

Why do they need paperwork to protect them? GTH outta my country!
However...they will not have peace and security with a Muslim population over 15%. They need to work on that.


38 posted on 08/15/2008 7:28:49 AM PDT by 668 - Neighbor of the Beast (My spiritual advisor is a lawyer.)
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To: romanesq

That’s good to hear, and is supported by the fact that Ukraine quickly made blunt statements about what it will and will not allow itself to be subject to peripherally in this conflict.


39 posted on 08/15/2008 7:30:03 AM PDT by agrace
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To: sam_paine

Good point - oil has fallen to $112 per bbl even without that pipeline on line so there must be more to it than that pipeline.

Maybe something as simple as a line in the sand being crossed or some perceived slight.


40 posted on 08/15/2008 7:55:45 AM PDT by WorkerbeeCitizen (Seinfeld was a show about nothing - so is Obama.)
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A truce protects georgia?
I see nothing protecting georgia.
And who will protect those who do nothing now?
41 posted on 08/15/2008 8:17:34 AM PDT by firewalk
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To: cyberslave
Militarily there isn't much we can do. If possible, it would be good to keep the lights on in Georgia and the cameras rolling. I suspect Russia isn't the powerhouse they'd like everyone to believe it is. Their troops looked pretty sloppy and undisciplined. The reports I've read kept finding drunken officers all over the place. I read the Moskva took a serious hit from some of the punk Georgian gun boats? I think Peters said they were still a blunt instrument. Putin may have some problems. Add up the populations of all of the former Soviet republics and former Warsaw pact countries and you might have a fairly large constituency of folks that don't care for the Russians. If Putin can pick them off one at a time he might succeed, but he might just have spooked them the wrong way. Witness some of the heads of those states joining together in Georgia, and Poland suddenly deciding the missile shield deal actually sounded pretty good. Hang together or separately. Suspect that's what the Eastern Europeans are thinking right now.
42 posted on 08/15/2008 8:19:22 AM PDT by throwback
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To: WorkerbeeCitizen

Hard to tell if Putin is testing the West, or we’re probing his capabilities...or both.

Nothing like a hot war to field test missiles and radars!


43 posted on 08/15/2008 8:58:33 AM PDT by sam_paine (X .................................)
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To: newnhdad

Saakashvili opened the news conference with a long, bitter tirade against European nations’ appeasement in the face of a Russian invasion last week.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/08/15/us.russia/index.html


44 posted on 08/15/2008 9:22:12 AM PDT by Red in Blue PA (Truth : Liberals :: Kryptonite : Superman)
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To: Red in Blue PA

I heard Rice (on a British Internet radio broadcast), and she sure didn’t sound like an appeaser to me. She was very firm and said the Russians had to get out NOW.


45 posted on 08/15/2008 9:41:49 AM PDT by livius
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To: livius

Get out, or what!? What are we to do if the Russians don’t get out?


46 posted on 08/15/2008 10:02:31 AM PDT by BlownChevelle
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To: livius

I heard part of that too and it didn’t sound like this AP/ABC report. Shocked I tell you, shocked. What I read disgusted me; what I heard I liked!


47 posted on 08/15/2008 10:11:13 AM PDT by Sal (9% Nan has Delusions of Adequacy and Reid is just plain siiiick.)
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To: sam_paine
OTOH, I don't disagree with this:

So far, so good as can be expected. US/Western national interests end at the end of that pipeline[NOTE] and an unsplit friendly buffer govt in Tbilisi between Russia and Turkey which is connected to the black sea. Sounds like Gates & Condi are keeping that line without getting Americans killed. As long as Tbilisi is not annexed, Russia still has the SAME political thorn in her side, and we don't have to defend/deal with a heavily militarized border between Russia and Turkey. I don't see how forcing Osettians to submit immediately to a Georgian govt that has let them be 'autonomous' for a decade is in US national interests. Is it?

What disgusted me was the way AP/ABC made it sound like we were laying down and spreading and we're not.

Just a guess, but I wonder if the way we get them out is telling them you can keep your crap hole (already separate from Georgia) little enclaves IF you get out of the rest of Georgia NOW. Then you can claim victory and strut all over. OR you can hang on and lose EVERYTHING including your illusions.

48 posted on 08/15/2008 10:18:07 AM PDT by Sal (9% Nan has Delusions of Adequacy and Reid is just plain siiiick.)
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To: Sal
I wonder if the way we get them out is telling them you can keep your crap hole (already separate from Georgia) little enclaves IF you get out of the rest of Georgia NOW. Then you can claim victory and strut all over.

That's exactly what I heard Condi say this morning.

Suppose we 'capitulate' and let Russia have their little no-oil 'crap holes.' If Georgia remains as an independent state, we win. In fact, 'seperatists' everywhere need to reconsider....they may not be so eager to breakaway into the arms of Ivan henceforth.

49 posted on 08/15/2008 10:47:10 AM PDT by sam_paine (X .................................)
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To: BlownChevelle

She didn’t specify, but she certainly sounded like we had a credible response backing her up. I think we probably will respond, although the big problem is that the Russians are making it clear they are holding the other Eastern European countries, such as Poland, hostage. They wouldn’t hesitate in the least to nuke a city in Poland, and I think that’s what’s holding us back.


50 posted on 08/15/2008 11:17:30 AM PDT by livius
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