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Signs of Ethnic Attacks in Georgia Conflict [A war Putin and Buchanan can be proud of!]
NYT.Com ^ | 14 Aug 08 | SABRINA TAVERNISE and MATT SIEGEL

Posted on 08/16/2008 1:28:50 AM PDT by elhombrelibre

TBILISI, Georgia — As the conflict between Russia and Georgia enters its second week, there is growing evidence of looting and “ethnic cleansing” in a number of villages throughout the area of conflict.

The attacks — some witnessed by reporters or documented by a human rights group — include stealing, the burning of villages and possibly even killings. Some are ethnically motivated, while at least some of the looting appears to be the work of profiteers in areas from which the authorities have fled.

The identities of the attackers vary, but a pattern of violence by ethnic Ossetians against ethnic Georgians is emerging and has been confirmed by some Russian authorities. “Now Ossetians are running around and killing poor Georgians in their enclaves,” said Maj. Gen. Vyacheslav Nikolaevich Borisov, the commander in charge of the city of Gori, occupied by the Russians.

A lieutenant from an armored transport division that was previously in Chechnya said: “We have to be honest. The Ossetians are marauding.”

The hostilities between Russia and Georgia started last week when the Georgian military marched into the disputed territory of South Ossetia, and the Russians responded by sending troops into the pro-Russia, separatist enclave and then into Georgia proper.

(Excerpt) Read more at nytimes.com ...


TOPICS: Extended News; Russia
KEYWORDS: ethniccleansing; georgia; gori; russiantroops; southossetia; war
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1 posted on 08/16/2008 1:28:50 AM PDT by elhombrelibre
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To: jveritas; FARS; Ernest_at_the_Beach; knighthawk; Marine_Uncle; SandRat; Steel Wolf; CAP; ...
How the occupation of Georgia is being managed ping.

Also see the link below for one story on the Buchanan/Putin peacekeepers robbing a bank.

http://www.timesnow.tv/NewsDtls.aspx?NewsID=13690

2 posted on 08/16/2008 1:32:49 AM PDT by elhombrelibre (Obama: vain, mercurial, inexperienced, aloof, condescending, doctrinaire, and Reverend Wright's son.)
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To: elhombrelibre
Georgian Refugees' Accounts Provide Glimpse Behind Russian Lines
3 posted on 08/16/2008 1:32:56 AM PDT by MarMema (Tavisuplebas dideba!)
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To: dixiechick2000
russian Allies Triumphant as City Burns
4 posted on 08/16/2008 1:34:49 AM PDT by MarMema (Tavisuplebas dideba!)
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To: MarMema
Torrent of refugees surges through Tbilisi

"Almost all schools and colleges and some shops and other buildings in Tbilisi have been filled with people who fled the fighting, mainly from Gori."

"Georgian TV stations have begun broadcasting reports which state that Russian soldiers have started marauding in Gori, Tskhinvali and the surrounding villages. They are breaking into houses, robbing everything. “They steal everything they can reach; cars, minibuses, and kill anyone who tries to prevent them. The residents have been living in basements for several days and won’t dare come out. Ossetian separatists are extremely aggressive towards Georgians and kill them without even speaking. They killed a wife and husband by a knife to their throat before my eyes” Gori resident Paata Tarielashvili said.

Russian “peacekeepers” have already occupied police stations and other state buildings in Zugdidi region. According to a Rustavi 2 news report, they have stolen computers and other things from the stations and conveyed them to unknown places. A middle–aged man stranded in the open air told Rustavi2 by telephone that one Russian soldier stole a minibus, called someone and told him he had young captives."

5 posted on 08/16/2008 1:37:48 AM PDT by MarMema (Tavisuplebas dideba!)
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To: MarMema
” The New Warsaw Pact “
6 posted on 08/16/2008 1:51:37 AM PDT by elhombrelibre (Obama: vain, mercurial, inexperienced, aloof, condescending, doctrinaire, and Reverend Wright's son.)
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To: elhombrelibre

Buchanan isn’t defending the Russians, he has been predicting how the Russians would respond. And it’s undeniable that PJB was - once again - correct. It was completely foreseeable, and the West’s impotent response was foreseeable, too. Not one Western soldier will be sent to defend Gori or Tbilsi, or wherever.


7 posted on 08/16/2008 5:13:44 AM PDT by sobieski
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To: elhombrelibre

Here’s PJB’s prescient analysis from earlier this year. It is instructive how far people will go to smear Pat. His was a sober warning:

From PJB’s January 4, 2008 article entitled

Should Americans Die for South Ossetia?
....
...to persuade Europe to bring Ukraine and Georgia into NATO, which means a U.S. commitment to treat any Russian attack on Kiev or Tbilisi like an attack on Kansas or Texas.

...

Can any sane man believe the United States should go to war with a nuclear-armed Russia over Stalin’s birthplace, Georgia?

Two provinces of Georgia, Abkhazia and South Ossetia, have seceded, with the backing of Russia.

...

To bring Ukraine and Georgia into NATO would put America in the middle of these quarrels. We could be dragged into a confrontation with Russia over Abkhazia, or South Ossetia, or over who owns Sebastopol. To bring these ex-republics of the Soviet Union into NATO would be an affront to Moscow not unlike 19th century Britain bringing the Confederate state of South Carolina under the protection of the British Empire.

How would Lincoln’s Union have reacted to that?

With a weary army and no NATO ally willing to fight beside us, how could we defend Georgia if Tbilisi, once in NATO, defied Moscow and invaded Abkhazia and South Ossetia – and Russia bombed the Georgian army and capital? Would we declare war? Would we send the 82nd Airborne into the Pankisi Gorge?

...

As Anatol Lieven writes in the Financial Times, McCain supports a restoration of Georgian rule over Abkhazia and South Ossetia, and NATO membership for Georgia and Ukraine. He wants to throw Russia out of the G-8 – and talks flippantly of bombing Iran.

Says McCain, “I would institute a policy called ‘rogue state rollback.’ I would arm, train, equip, both from without and from within, forces that would eventually overthrow the governments and install free and democratically elected governments.”

Wonderful. A Second Crusade for Global Democracy. But with the Joint Chiefs warning of a war-weary Army and Marine Corps, who will fight all the new wars the neocons and their new champion have in store for us?


8 posted on 08/16/2008 6:02:55 AM PDT by sobieski (L)
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To: sobieski
Well, I think we can confidently predict that you and Pat Buchanan won't fight them! Undermine them, yes. Fight them, no.
9 posted on 08/16/2008 6:28:19 AM PDT by elhombrelibre (Obama: vain, mercurial, inexperienced, aloof, condescending, doctrinaire, and Reverend Wright's son.)
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To: sobieski

Nutball Pat’s harshest criticism has been towards the US for taking out that b*stard Hussein.

Now he readily excuses the invasion of Georgia as “oh well, shouldn’t mess with Russia.”

Which side is he on again?


10 posted on 08/16/2008 6:41:30 AM PDT by Rammer
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To: elhombrelibre
>>>>Well, I think we can confidently predict that you and Pat Buchanan won't fight them!

I can confidently predict you won't "fight" for Georgia either, unless typing on the internet counts as "fighting."

11 posted on 08/16/2008 6:53:11 AM PDT by Thorin ("I won't be reconstructed, and I do not give a damn.")
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To: sobieski
>>>>>Buchanan isn’t defending the Russians, he has been predicting how the Russians would respond. And it’s undeniable that PJB was - once again - correct.

You are exactly right.

12 posted on 08/16/2008 6:53:53 AM PDT by Thorin ("I won't be reconstructed, and I do not give a damn.")
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To: Thorin
You never know.

But what is certain is I won't be politically and morally neutral like Buchanan, your hero. I won't blame the victims, like Buchanan does of the Poles in WWII or the Georgians today. Why is he always sucking up to evil men, rationalizing their evil, and showing contempt for the innocent victims? Hmmmm?

13 posted on 08/16/2008 7:00:51 AM PDT by elhombrelibre (Obama: vain, mercurial, inexperienced, aloof, condescending, doctrinaire, and Reverend Wright's son.)
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To: Rammer
Well, said. Remember nutball Buchanan didn't even want Saddam thrown out of Kuwait when he invaded that country. His whole moral compass in foreign policy is based on supporting evil dictators. Remember too that Buckley’d had enough of him too.
14 posted on 08/16/2008 7:02:51 AM PDT by elhombrelibre (Obama: vain, mercurial, inexperienced, aloof, condescending, doctrinaire, and Reverend Wright's son.)
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To: elhombrelibre

Buchanan’s foreign policy views are based on protecting the vital interests of this America. Those do not include the question of who controls South Ossetia. Getting into unnecessary wars is a sure path to national ruin.


15 posted on 08/16/2008 7:06:37 AM PDT by Thorin ("I won't be reconstructed, and I do not give a damn.")
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To: elhombrelibre

Please put me on your ping! thanks for gettinga Georgia ping started!


16 posted on 08/16/2008 7:07:56 AM PDT by Recovering Ex-hippie (GOD BLESS GEORGIA! SAVE GEORGIA, OUR ALLY, NOW!)
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To: Recovering Ex-hippie

Will do.


17 posted on 08/16/2008 7:09:17 AM PDT by elhombrelibre (Obama: vain, mercurial, inexperienced, aloof, condescending, doctrinaire, and Reverend Wright's son.)
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To: sobieski

You are right.

Little Estonia has sent in troops...we can’t get our aid in.

and Merkel is a weenie that will see her day coming.


18 posted on 08/16/2008 7:09:46 AM PDT by Recovering Ex-hippie (GOD BLESS GEORGIA! SAVE GEORGIA, OUR ALLY, NOW!)
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To: Thorin

And we are fighting with each other on the Freeper site STILL whether Georgia is worth it. And ‘we don’t have a dog in this fight.” Not much conservative values about freedom and democracy and national sovereignty...lets just leave this silly little country ‘way over there” alone.


19 posted on 08/16/2008 7:12:49 AM PDT by Recovering Ex-hippie (GOD BLESS GEORGIA! SAVE GEORGIA, OUR ALLY, NOW!)
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To: Thorin
Was that why he favored leaving Saddam in Kuwait after Saddam took that country? Pat has a consistent foreign policy outlook of apologizing for tyrants, especially if it harms Israel, but in all situations and places. He's trying to rebuild the Isolationists agenda at best, but he's willing to ignore anything to preach his theory. I think the fact that he's always been wisely rejected by the American people has also embittered him and made even more gleeful about sticking up for tyrants. What did he ever get 2% of the vote when he ran for president? Face it the American people reject him and his theories that ignore the real world.
20 posted on 08/16/2008 7:19:16 AM PDT by elhombrelibre (Obama: vain, mercurial, inexperienced, aloof, condescending, doctrinaire, and Reverend Wright's son.)
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To: elhombrelibre
>>>>>>Was that why he favored leaving Saddam in Kuwait after Saddam took that country?

Because he foresaw that Iraq was needed to counterbalance Iran, and the destruction of Iraq would merely embolden Iran. Which, of course, it has.

21 posted on 08/16/2008 7:31:32 AM PDT by Thorin ("I won't be reconstructed, and I do not give a damn.")
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To: Thorin
So Saddam needed to stay in Kuwait? Wow, you're way out there. Maybe you're trying to make the case for keeping Saddam in power and don't remember Saddam's invasion of Kuwait. And did you support Saddam's missile attacks on Israel too and his public support for and paying of suicide bombers who killed civilians there?
22 posted on 08/16/2008 7:34:05 AM PDT by elhombrelibre (Obama: vain, mercurial, inexperienced, aloof, condescending, doctrinaire, and Reverend Wright's son.)
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To: sobieski
Says McCain, “I would institute a policy called ‘rogue state rollback.’ I would arm, train, equip, both from without and from within, forces that would eventually overthrow the governments and install free and democratically elected governments

It worked in Afghanistan. We armed the resistance and they drove out the Soviets. We did not lose one man. Unfortunately we did not follow up on Afghanistan after the Soviets were driven out. It then became an enclave of Alqada.

23 posted on 08/16/2008 7:36:33 AM PDT by cpdiii (roughneck, oilfield trash and proud of it, geologist, pilot, pharmacist, iconoclast.)
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To: elhombrelibre

Pukeannan would have let Hitler take Britain since it wasn’t a National interest.

Pray for W and Our Troops


24 posted on 08/16/2008 7:41:30 AM PDT by bray (Drill Congress!!)
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To: Rammer

Obviously, your hatred of PJB renders you unable to read. Pat has been warning a) that Russia won’t allow Georgia into NATO; b) that they have the cards in that Georgia doesn’t control its own provinces; and c) we won’t fight for Georgia.

He’s not excusing the invasion. He correctly predicted it as well as our response: Lots of hot air but zero steps. Georgia will be dismembered, and we can’t do anything about it.


25 posted on 08/16/2008 7:53:46 AM PDT by sobieski (L)
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To: elhombrelibre

Senor I can confidently predict that you won’t go, and you won’t send your kin, to fight for Tbilsi.


26 posted on 08/16/2008 7:54:23 AM PDT by sobieski (L)
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To: Recovering Ex-hippie

Didn’t she say that the Ruskies should leave Georgia proper, leaving open the ? of Ossettia and Abkhazia?


27 posted on 08/16/2008 7:55:14 AM PDT by sobieski (L)
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To: cpdiii

Some differences: a mountainous, remote country w/o pipelines. Not clear that the Russians will stay in Georgia proper, and not even Georgians will fight for Ossetia or Abkhazia (let alone NATO)


28 posted on 08/16/2008 7:56:32 AM PDT by sobieski (L)
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To: sobieski
I've been in three war zones. I don't think I'll go to Tbilsi either. But I won't be Putin's apologists either. Any way, I'm getting tired of you. You can run along now.
29 posted on 08/16/2008 7:58:41 AM PDT by elhombrelibre (Obama: vain, mercurial, inexperienced, aloof, condescending, doctrinaire, and Reverend Wright's son.)
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To: elhombrelibre; sobieski
I've been in three war zones. I don't think I'll go to Tbilsi either.

Well, I don't know...isn't the summer weather cooler there? And no sand? Lemme think... ;-)

30 posted on 08/16/2008 8:03:28 AM PDT by Allegra (Goodness me, goodness me, industrial disease...)
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To: Allegra

It might be easier to get a drink in Georgia too.


31 posted on 08/16/2008 8:04:51 AM PDT by elhombrelibre (Obama: vain, mercurial, inexperienced, aloof, condescending, doctrinaire, and Reverend Wright's son.)
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To: elhombrelibre
It might be easier to get a drink in Georgia too.

Booze is legal in Iraq. :-)

32 posted on 08/16/2008 8:09:52 AM PDT by Allegra (Goodness me, goodness me, industrial disease...)
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To: elhombrelibre

Good for you. No one will go to Tbilsi, and no one is supporting what Putin and Saakshvili did. However, Patrick J. Buchanan once again, well in advance, read the tea leaves correctly.

Of course you’re tired of being unable to respond to argument, which PJB set out well long ago:

1) We are putting NATO into a country that is partially controlled by Russia

2) If the Georgians aren’t careful, they will have trouble wtih the Russians

3) We won’t do a darn thing about it.

QED No need to reply w/ insults, only if you can refute the arguement.


33 posted on 08/16/2008 8:14:17 AM PDT by sobieski (L)
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To: Allegra
Yeah, that's true. But then there is that darn General Order Number One. There is no getting around that.
34 posted on 08/16/2008 8:15:07 AM PDT by elhombrelibre (Obama: vain, mercurial, inexperienced, aloof, condescending, doctrinaire, and Reverend Wright's son.)
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To: elhombrelibre
But then there is that darn General Order Number One. There is no getting around that.

*Cough!* There isn't? ;-D

35 posted on 08/16/2008 8:17:12 AM PDT by Allegra (Goodness me, goodness me, industrial disease...)
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To: sobieski

If the Georgians aren’t careful, they’ll all be murdered, which I’m sure you’d say is their own fault for not listening to the great and all-knowing prophet Buchanan. I’m sure you were pleased to hear Putin’s Russia threaten to use nukes on Poland. I’m sure you’re happy that Putin sells weapons to Iran and uranium that’s used to make nuclear weapons. And if we’re not careful, maybe Putin will kill us. Of course, maybe people will kill Russian soldiers in Georgia too. Don’t be too sad that Pat didn’t foresee that.


36 posted on 08/16/2008 8:20:18 AM PDT by elhombrelibre (Obama: vain, mercurial, inexperienced, aloof, condescending, doctrinaire, and Reverend Wright's son.)
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To: Allegra

Don’t ask. Don’t tell.


37 posted on 08/16/2008 8:21:24 AM PDT by elhombrelibre (Obama: vain, mercurial, inexperienced, aloof, condescending, doctrinaire, and Reverend Wright's son.)
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To: elhombrelibre

Look, I’m not supporting it and neither is PJB. But the fact is we are not going to do anything about it. We didn’t aid Poland in 1981 or Czechosl in 1968 or Hungary in 1956, et. al. It’s sad, but it’s a fact. Moreover, we won’t take the Russians on for their arms sales.

Perhaps you are right. Where do you see us doing something? All PJB is saying is that we were playing a losing hand and as such, we’re impotent. He’s been shown to be correct. How is he wrong?


38 posted on 08/16/2008 8:26:12 AM PDT by sobieski (L)
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To: sobieski
He's been wrong on Iraq. He didn't think we could ever win there. He seemed to admire Saddam, and even thought we should let old Saddam keep Kuwait when he took that country. He doesn't condemn Putin, so I think of him as more of a cheer leader or a rationalizer for the former KGB man, Putin. Buchanan is a Herbert Matthews type when it comes to Putin. And if you were right about Pat always being so right, America would have elected the chatter box Buchanan to be our president. Instead, he got about 1% of the vote. He's basically been bitter and eager to harm Bush ever since. So I won't join you in Buchanan worship.
39 posted on 08/16/2008 8:42:01 AM PDT by elhombrelibre (Obama: vain, mercurial, inexperienced, aloof, condescending, doctrinaire, and Reverend Wright's son.)
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To: elhombrelibre

Bingo. {hic!}


40 posted on 08/16/2008 8:47:09 AM PDT by Allegra (Goodness me, goodness me, industrial disease...)
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To: Allegra

;-)


41 posted on 08/16/2008 8:48:37 AM PDT by elhombrelibre (Obama: vain, mercurial, inexperienced, aloof, condescending, doctrinaire, and Reverend Wright's son.)
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To: elhombrelibre
There are limitations about what the US can do. Obvioulsy, we can't go to the nuclear brink over Georgia any more than we did when the Soviets invaded Afghanistan or Hungary.

agree PJB that it is not in our interest to include Georgia in NATO, which means an attack against one is an attack against all.

NATO set a dangerous precedent with its involvement in Kosovo, which is part of Serbia and now recognizing Kosovo [a breakaway state] as an independent nation. The Russians have made that linkage between Kosovo and Georgia. It is also worth noting that Russian "peacekeepers" have been in Georgia since 1992.

42 posted on 08/16/2008 9:16:26 AM PDT by kabar
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To: cpdiii

In hind sight, we picked the wrong side, in siding with the mullahs in Afghanistan. We should have been neutral. Then and now, IMO, they are the more dangerous enemy.


43 posted on 08/16/2008 9:16:27 AM PDT by duckln ( Liberals have Global warming, we have war with Russia.Strange world!)
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To: kabar
Yours and PJB’s is wise advice, or so you think. It's as if you've come upon a woman being raped and told her just to enjoy it. There's nothing, after all, anyone can do about it, eh? But there was a point in the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan when people thought like you and PJB. Others knew better. If the Russians don't get out of Georgia, they'll pay a huge price in prestige, blood, and treasure. The defeatists can come up with a million reasons why Putin will crush all of the people of the former satellite states. I don't think you're right. There are ways to fight back, and that day will come if the Russians do not get out.
44 posted on 08/16/2008 9:43:58 AM PDT by elhombrelibre (Obama: vain, mercurial, inexperienced, aloof, condescending, doctrinaire, and Reverend Wright's son.)
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To: elhombrelibre

Who’s talking about Iraq? The issue at hand is Georgia, and the US response to it. He had it bang on right; if our leaders in DC had had these insights, we wouldn’t appear to be so weak and powerless (which, in fact, we are in Georgia).

You still haven’t addressed his analysis of Georgia. As such, I’ll assume you consider it to be unassailable.


45 posted on 08/16/2008 10:14:55 AM PDT by sobieski (L)
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To: Allegra

I’ll bet it gets nasty cold in Georgia in the winter . . . brrrrr. I disliked rolling around in the ice and snow so much that I requested Ft. Hood, TX after being stationed in Wildflecken, GE for two years! haha


46 posted on 08/16/2008 10:15:35 AM PDT by DesertSapper (God, Family, Country . . . . . . . . . . and dead terrorists!!!)
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To: elhombrelibre

I’m sorry, but you apparently can’t follow the point. It’s not my position nor Pat Buchanan’s that Russia’s response in Georgia is OK. Rather, it’s the reality of what’s happening there. We are not going to go to Georgia, our troops are not going to Georgia, and we are not going to stop the Russians from doing whatever they want. The US will stand aside and do nothing. It’s sad, but that’s what’s happening. We are not all Georgians now, per Sen. McKeating.

PJB’s point was that we’ve made imperial overreach to the point of impotency. The events of the past week show that, and as such, it’s a wake-up call to us.

What price will the Russians pay? The 2014 Olympics will be withdrawn from Sobchi? Unlikely. Europe will push them out? Unlikely. NATO? Ditto. They won’t get into the WTO? They aren’t now and it doesn’t matter to them as much. They’ll pay a price in treasure or blood? From the 37,000 man Georgian Army? Perhaps; no signs yet.

If the people in Russia’s Near Abroad want to fight back, then that’s great and we should arm them. But that’s not Pat’s point. His greater point is that we look weak, whining about what Putin did but unable to shape the situation on the ground. It’s true that PJB’s an admited paleo-con, who doesn’t think we should be entangled in all these foreign alliances. I agree, not least b/c that was the prescient warning of President George Washington.

Nota bene: Pat agreed with President Bush that Russia’s response was disproportionate and brutal. If Pat didn’t condemn it, it’s only because you think that the President didn’t either.


47 posted on 08/16/2008 10:47:08 AM PDT by sobieski (L)
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To: sobieski

We’ve troops in Georgia now. You probably didn’t know that.


48 posted on 08/16/2008 2:31:01 PM PDT by elhombrelibre (Obama: vain, mercurial, inexperienced, aloof, condescending, doctrinaire, and Reverend Wright's son.)
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To: elhombrelibre

Seems to fit the Russian Army rather well. Bank robbers.


49 posted on 08/16/2008 2:44:49 PM PDT by Marine_Uncle (Duncan Hunter was our best choice...Now we are left with a bunch of idiots.)
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To: elhombrelibre
Yours and PJB’s is wise advice, or so you think. It's as if you've come upon a woman being raped and told her just to enjoy it. There's nothing, after all, anyone can do about it, eh? But there was a point in the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan when people thought like you and PJB.

Yeah, Jimmy Carter organized the boycott of the Olympics. We supplied the Afghan rebels with stingers, other weapons, money, etc. and they eventually were able to drive out the Soviets. This led to the rise of the Taliban and OBL who used Afghanistan as a sanctuary and base for AQ to plan the 9/11 attack and train tens of thousands of AQ members. All things considered, it may have been better to have the Soviet puppet government still running the place.

If the Russians don't get out of Georgia, they'll pay a huge price in prestige, blood, and treasure. The defeatists can come up with a million reasons why Putin will crush all of the people of the former satellite states. I don't think you're right. There are ways to fight back, and that day will come if the Russians do not get out.

You are creating phony strawmen. There is no doubt we can aid Georgia thru other means just like we did the Afghans, but there is no way we confront the Russians militarily in Georgia. Nor should we push for their inclusion in NATO unless we are ready to invoke Article 5 of the NATO charter, which has only been done once, i.e., in Afghanistan in response to 9/11.

We are going to have something of a showdown already with the Russians and Serbs over Kosovo. They won't recognize Kosovo and will block their admission to the UN. And they could cause some problems there that may require NATO involvement, i..e, they can supply rebels inside Kosovo with weapons, advisors, etc. It is odd that we are trying to protect Islamic terrorist groups like the KLA in Kosovo in the heart of Europe. Albania is 70% Muslim and Kosovo is mainly Muslim.

50 posted on 08/16/2008 3:21:22 PM PDT by kabar
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