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Russian forces destroy key Georgian bridge ( What ceasefire comrade?)
LA Times ^ | 8-16-2008 | Megan K. Stack

Posted on 08/16/2008 10:31:53 AM PDT by 82ndABNOfficer

IGOETI, Georgia -- Russia and its allied forces today destroyed a key railway bridge linking war-weary Georgia's capital to the Black Sea coast, effectively severing all east-west transportation routes within the small country, the Georgian Foreign Ministry announced.

(Excerpt) Read more at latimes.com ...


TOPICS: Extended News; Foreign Affairs; News/Current Events; Russia
KEYWORDS: blacksea; ceasefire; evilempire; georgia; russia; russiantroops; war
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1 posted on 08/16/2008 10:31:54 AM PDT by 82ndABNOfficer
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To: ETL; txflake; Bender2; Petronski

ping.


2 posted on 08/16/2008 10:32:49 AM PDT by Army Air Corps (Four fried chickens and a coke)
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To: 82ndABNOfficer

Bastards are destroying the country.


3 posted on 08/16/2008 10:32:52 AM PDT by golfisnr1 (Democrats are like roaches - hard to get rid of.)
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To: golfisnr1

Not sure why we can’t just send in some of our special forces.....


4 posted on 08/16/2008 10:34:22 AM PDT by 82ndABNOfficer
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To: SolidWood

ping.


5 posted on 08/16/2008 10:36:24 AM PDT by Army Air Corps (Four fried chickens and a coke)
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To: Army Air Corps

How often have they broken their umpteenth “ceasefire” already? The Russians are already lying when they lower their jaw one inch.


6 posted on 08/16/2008 10:37:56 AM PDT by SolidWood (God Bless Georgia and grant them victory over Russia!)
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To: 82ndABNOfficer; TigerLikesRooster; M. Espinola; Travis McGee
Defiant Russia Advances Deeper Into George After Ceasefire


Russians Still Control Georgia: This Convoy is On Way to Tbilisi


Defiant Russia Advances Deeper Into George After Ceasefire

Russia: 'Forget' Georgian Territorial Integrity

The Pipeline War: Russian Bear Goes for West's Jugular

Click the photo and view more reports. Hundreds of news reports are linked . . .

7 posted on 08/16/2008 10:39:34 AM PDT by ex-Texan (Matthew 7: 1 - 6)
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To: Army Air Corps

FNC Steve Harrigan reporting Russian forces within 14 miles of capitol this afternoon and not moving.


8 posted on 08/16/2008 10:39:34 AM PDT by eastforker (Get-R-Done and then Bring-Em- Home)
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To: 82ndABNOfficer

Russian soldiers interviewed along the road between Russian-controlled Gori and Igoeti said their mission was to protect the road. They could be seen hiking up toward hilltop positions and setting up checkpoints and tank positions and conducting what appeared to be foot patrols.

Nearby villagers were in a panic.”

Well, so much for diplomacy. The only type of diplomacy these guys understand begins with the muzzle of a gun barrel. This is even more brazen than what I expected, I assumed they would at least claim that certain elements of the peace plan had been violated.


9 posted on 08/16/2008 10:41:08 AM PDT by bereanway
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To: 82ndABNOfficer
I expect the Russians will pull back now...but they will destroy, loot, burn, and incapacitate as much of Georgian infrastructure as they can as they withdraw.

I also expect the people of those two provinces will hold referendums and demand independence. Sadly, because of Clinton's sick precedent in Kosovo, and then Bush foolishly (IMHO) recognizing Kosovo, there will be little we can do to keep that from happening.

At least Bush, here late in the game, has seen how Putin has used him and abused his trust, and he (Bush) is now responding appropriately.

What we can do, is arm the Georgians with much more modern weaponry, train them, accept them into NATO, and then establish a couple of bases for either NATO, the US, or one of each, on each side of the country to act as a deterrent to more Russian agression.

I hope we will. The Georgians deserve it.

10 posted on 08/16/2008 10:41:54 AM PDT by Jeff Head (Freedom is not free...never has been, never will be. (www.dragonsfuryseries.com))
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To: eastforker

Don’t worry. I’ve been on Code Pink’s web site and A.N.S.W.E.R.’s site and they are all over this...........................
Well, don’t worry, both the EU and NATO will step in and face them down......................................

Oh, that’s right. The Georgians are screwed unless WE have the stones to help them.


11 posted on 08/16/2008 10:43:18 AM PDT by IrishCatholic (No local communist or socialist party chapter? Join the Democrats, it's the same thing.)
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To: 82ndABNOfficer

I am starting to think that its time to hand Iraq the keys
and for us to refocus on this next rogue state.

This cannot be allowed to continue and Russia must be made
to pay. Somehow this needs to happen without touching
off WWIII.

Too bad that GWB let himself be played by that monster.
I hope he gave Putin an earful at the Olympics


12 posted on 08/16/2008 10:46:06 AM PDT by rahbert
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To: 82ndABNOfficer
“If you will not fight for the right when you can easily win without bloodshed; if you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly; you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a small chance of survival. There may even be a worse case: you may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves.” Winston Churchill

Will my good wife fetch me my boots and powder whilst I sharpen my bayonet, WAR is in the offing.

13 posted on 08/16/2008 10:46:19 AM PDT by Camel Joe (liberal=socialist=royalist/imperialist pawn=enemy of Freedom)
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To: Jeff Head
I was throughly amazed at the undisciplined nature of the Russian troops! No wonder they lost against Afghanistan.
14 posted on 08/16/2008 10:49:25 AM PDT by rodguy911 (LAND OF THE FREE BECAUSE OF THE BRAVE)
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To: rahbert
He did...


15 posted on 08/16/2008 10:55:19 AM PDT by Jeff Head (Freedom is not free...never has been, never will be. (www.dragonsfuryseries.com))
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To: 82ndABNOfficer

It doesn’t look like they plan on leaving, but will probably continue to sign ceasefires and agreements saying they will...liars, thugs & thieves.


16 posted on 08/16/2008 10:56:29 AM PDT by AprilfromTexas
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To: 82ndABNOfficer
The Pain Game A military response to Russia's aggression?

Having pulled back from Ossetia and Abkhazia, the Georgians can now regroup and re-equip. They are in desperate need of two things: weapons to kill tanks, and weapons to kill or deter aircraft and helicopters. We can supply both. The Stinger missile, the bane of Russian Frontal Aviation in Afghanistan, is still the most potent shoulder-fired weapon around. It will cause Russian close support aircraft to keep their distance, or to attack from higher altitude. Providing Georgia with medium-range surface-to-air missiles which can be deployed from Georgian territory proper will further push back their high-altitude aircraft (e.g., Tu-22M Backfires). Freed from aerial observation and the threat of air attack, Georgian forces could move dismounted over the mountains more readily than Russian mechanized forces can move along the roads. Which means that the Georgians would be free to set up ambushes to block further Russian advances and to interdict their lines of communication. We can provide the wherewithal for them to do this. First, we need to give the Georgians anti-tank mines, and not just any kind, but our latest "smart" off-route mines like the XM93 Wide Area Mine (WAM). These don't have to be placed directly on the roads, but can be put off to the side, where built-in sensors can detect armored vehicles and launch explosive formed penetrator (RFP) warheads at them. Second, we need to give them our best anti-tank guided missile, the FGM-148 Javelin. This is a "fire and forget" weapon: once the operator lines up the target in his sights and locks on, he can fire the missile and get away, while the missile will fly autonomously to the target. With a range of about two kilometers, the Javelin also uses a "top attack" profile, diving down onto the roof of the tank where the armor is thinnest. In action in Operation Iraqi Freedom, javelins were devastating against Russian-designed tanks. Knocking out a few tanks or other armored vehicles on a narrow mountain road creates a barrier to movement behind which all traffic piles up, immobile and vulnerable to attack.

Most of that traffic will consist of trucks and other "soft" vehicles. It's a waste to go after them with expensive missiles, but cheap mortars work pretty well. Even better would be long-range, highly accurate heavy sniper rifles, such as the 12.7mm (.50-caliber) Barrett, much favored by U.S. special forces. Georgian special forces are reputed to be well trained and highly motivated. They would probably be even more motivated fighting Russians on their own soil than they were fighting al Qaeda back in Iraq.

Pretty soon, Russian forces will be taking serious casualties. They will have to inject more troops to protect their lines of communication. They will have to get out of their troop carriers and climb up into the mountains, where they will take more casualties from an agile and elusive enemy. They can't even resort to the time honored tactic of butchering the local population of Ossetia and Abkhazia, since these are now "Russian citizens," having been granted passports by the Russian government (thereby doing Hitler one better: there actually were Germans in the Sudetenland, but Putin had to invent his downtrodden "Russian" minority in Georgia).

As Russian forces start to bleed, it will be impossible, even in the controlled media of Putin's Russia, to hide the casualties from the Russian people. They will probably respond to this as they did to the bloodletting in both Afghanistan and Chechnya. Worse, for the Russian government, a prolonged and bloody war will require a massive increase in the Russian military budget, which has been run on a shoestring for most of the Putin era. That would mean making painful choices between the military and other priorities, precisely at the same time that oil prices have begun to come down, cutting into Russian revenues. In addition, the Russian military will begin to worry about the derailing of its abortive transformation plan: as the U.S. military recently discovered, you can fight a war, or you can transform yourself, but it's almost impossible to do both at once. Warfighting will eat into the already thin training, procurement, and research & development budgets, and soon the Russian staff will be howling, too.

So what will Russia do, in such a circumstance? They could escalate, but they might find more palatable a face-saving withdrawal, turning over Ossetia and Abkhazia to an international peacekeeping force, and leaving Georgian territory free of Russian troops. Georgia would then have to make its own peace with the separatists, but with a buffer between itself and the Russian army, the Georgians may have more leverage over its intransigent minorities.

Two things are needed to make this happen: political will on the part of the U.S. to provide the Georgian army with the necessary equipment and training (our Special Forces already have a close relationship with the Georgian army), and more important, political will on the part of the Georgian government to continue fighting until the Russians are off their soil. Whether the Georgians would want to fight what would certainly prove a long and difficult war is hard to say; it would surely depend in large measure on whether they believe we would stand with them to the end. Guerrilla wars are always messy, and without a sponsor, the guerrillas usually lose. But it is premature and more than a little defeatist to write off the Georgians' chances of bloodying the nose of the resurgent Russian bear.


17 posted on 08/16/2008 10:56:58 AM PDT by SeafoodGumbo
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To: 82ndABNOfficer

The question our president must consider is whether saving Georgia is worth war with Russia, possibly nuclear. Thank goodness we have a president who understands these things. The Russian imperative in keeping a military threat from its back door is the same as ours was in October, 1962. We were willing to risk nuclear destruction to protect that imperative, as the Russians are now. We Americans are too often guilty of thinking of wars as events that we participate in in foreign countries, but we have to consider the reality of fighting the next one in our own front yard.


18 posted on 08/16/2008 11:00:59 AM PDT by Spok (Whatever you say about McCain, it must be admitted that he's no B. Hussein Obama.)
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To: SeafoodGumbo

Send some humanitarian aid in the form of night vision equipment, anti-tank weapons and MANPAD anti-aircraft missiles to the Georgians, then watch the Bear try to get his clumsy paw out of the bear trap.


19 posted on 08/16/2008 11:05:34 AM PDT by filbert (More filbert at http://www.medary.com)
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To: filbert
...then watch the Bear try to get his clumsy paw out of the bear trap.

Hehe. I like the analogy.

20 posted on 08/16/2008 11:09:20 AM PDT by SeafoodGumbo
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To: ex-Texan
On the edge of the strategically important city of Gori, Georgian soldiers pointed their weapons at Russian forces, and explosions and small arms fire broke out in the distance.

Georgia claimed Russians had left the oil port city of Poti, but hours later some forces were still there.

The U.S. said a move toward Kutaisi would be a matter of great concern, but two defense officials told The Associated Press the Pentagon did not detect any major movement by Russia troops or tanks.

In a way this makes no sense as Kutaisi is mid-way between Gori and Poti (east - west line) which implies they are already there (Kutaisi). If the presence is small enough it is of no concern. A major push to the southwest, well that would be another story.

Cutting the route by blowing the bridge at Gori does imply they are going to keep the S.O. region with some buffer zone. I wonder what the lines look like on the east side, from Mtskheta to Dusheti and north?

21 posted on 08/16/2008 11:10:17 AM PDT by TLI ( ITINERIS IMPENDEO VALHALLA)
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To: SeafoodGumbo; All
Good post!!

IMHO, wouldn't a "temporary" closing of the Roki Tunnel also help to create a more "target rich enviornment" for the Georgians?

22 posted on 08/16/2008 11:10:26 AM PDT by musicman
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To: 82ndABNOfficer

Good video at that link. Thank you.


23 posted on 08/16/2008 11:16:35 AM PDT by MarMema (Tavisuplebas dideba!)
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To: TLI

Mtskheta is still occupied, per a friend I have there.


24 posted on 08/16/2008 11:17:36 AM PDT by MarMema (Tavisuplebas dideba!)
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To: Jeff Head
Great image! Deserves a closer look...

25 posted on 08/16/2008 11:26:38 AM PDT by Bobalu (If you don't want people pointing out your flaws, maybe you should work on not having any)
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To: 82ndABNOfficer

The President needs to make a very clear statement ASAP that the US is monitoring these activities and anything the Russians break the United States of America will speedily replace.


26 posted on 08/16/2008 11:42:30 AM PDT by lodi90
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To: 82ndABNOfficer

It is a Russian style ceasefire.

You cease, they fire.


27 posted on 08/16/2008 11:45:03 AM PDT by Canticle_of_Deborah
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To: rahbert
My guess is the KGB is all over each and every country(including Georgia) that Russia lost. If we don't do the same with our cia we are truly naive.
28 posted on 08/16/2008 11:45:27 AM PDT by rodguy911 (LAND OF THE FREE BECAUSE OF THE BRAVE)
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To: filbert

“Send some humanitarian aid in the form of night vision equipment, anti-tank weapons and MANPAD anti-aircraft missiles to the Georgians”

If the Georgians fight back at this point the KGB will just send their armor into the capitol and depose the Georgian government.


29 posted on 08/16/2008 11:45:37 AM PDT by lodi90
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To: eastforker
FNC Steve Harrigan reporting Russian forces within 14 miles of capitol this afternoon and not moving.

It was 35 miles yesterday. I hope the West has an evacuation plan for the Georgian president.

30 posted on 08/16/2008 11:46:38 AM PDT by Canticle_of_Deborah
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To: AprilfromTexas
We need to use some “special” weapons on them just to get their attention. Just a little reminder to let them know who they are fooling with.
31 posted on 08/16/2008 11:47:17 AM PDT by rodguy911 (LAND OF THE FREE BECAUSE OF THE BRAVE)
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To: SeafoodGumbo
I wouldn't supply them with U.S. weapons, I would supply them with the latest Russian stuff. SA-18, Kornet, the latest RPG. If you can't get it from what was captured in Iraq then have somebody buy it from the Chinese. Throw in a couple thousand explosively formed projectile type IEDs based on the Iranian design.

A couple things make this a better plan than equipping them with the latest American gear. First it doesn't allow the Russians to capture/buy a Javelin. The second is that it rams their own support of our enemies back down their throat.

32 posted on 08/16/2008 11:55:30 AM PDT by USNBandit (sarcasm engaged at all times)
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To: lodi90
If the Georgians fight back at this point the KGB will just send their armor into the capitol and depose the Georgian government.

That's what the anti-tank weapons are for. If I were Bush or Rice today, I would be telling the Russians in no uncertain terms that if they don't withdraw their forces to the two provinces that they've already stolen from Georgia, we'll turn the rest of Georgia into another Afghanistan for them. That's the bear trap I refer to.

33 posted on 08/16/2008 11:59:39 AM PDT by filbert (More filbert at http://www.medary.com)
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To: Jeff Head
At least Bush, here late in the game, has seen how Putin has used him and abused his trust, and he (Bush) is now responding appropriately.

I kinda feel sorry for Bush, looking from a European perspective, can I offer my opinion?

Bush Jr's' entire presidential period seems to have been littered with issues left for him, that he was obliged to try and finish off.
The war in Iraq should never have been, it was probably the one facet of middle East rogues that could genuinely have waited.
If it wasn't for Saddam having snubbed Bush Sr so many times, I don't think the US would have been militarily involved in Iraq under Bush Jr.

The stark differences bteween Putin and Bush are so obvious, even the photo above that was posted shows tension.

Putin is a chess master, he's a fearless, manipulative, hard nosed right wing Communist, who's nationalistic goals are fully supported by his attitude, commitment and more importantly, his political colleagues and his people.
He is a true leader of a Nation, whether one likes where he is taking them, or not.

Then you have Bush Jr, a Republican, who as mentioned, has spent years trying to save face for previous presidents, exudes a modicum of right wing policy, but tries to balance it with other left wing idiocy to keep immature voters happy.
He's seen as rather deficient in European circles, from the aforementioned settling of scores, to the way he obviously struggles to speak publicly with a fluent grasp of English pronunciation.
The way that he tries to offer balance against his true beliefs, and how he's trying to keep alive some Nationalistic influences in a Country which is adamant on charging swiftly to the extreme left, fundamentally compromises him.

I think if he'd had a clear slate, he'd have developed much better as a personality, which would have made him a much better President, when looking retrospectively.
After all, as far as issues in a Presidential term go, he's had a hell of a lot to deal with, maybe more, and more serious issues than any other President in history.

I just wish he'd have been more honest and resolute.
When he said he wanted a war on terror, he should have gone to war with real terrorists, and their funders, rather than spending years, colluding with the Marxist idiot Blair from England, dealing with major life and money losses playing out the facade that is the war in Iraq.

I think Bush knows what's needed, it's a similarly strong response to the rogue Countries of the World, but after Iraq, there's no way the increasingly Liberal US will have the stomach for it, unless Russia, N.Korea, Pakistan or Iran light the fire first.
34 posted on 08/16/2008 11:59:45 AM PDT by Lilith Incubus
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To: lodi90

Since when does the Georgian government need to run out of Tblisi?

They can be located anywhere, as long as they have good lines of command, control, and communication. Their border with Turkey would be a pretty safe place, as I doubt the Turks would put up with armed Russian tank brigades and infantry divisions anywhere near them.


35 posted on 08/16/2008 12:00:44 PM PDT by gogogodzilla (Live free or die!)
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To: Lilith Incubus
Bush got 9/11 less than eight months into his presidency.

It changed and colored his entire approach. Any plans he had for our nation prior to that had to be modified.

As annoyed as I have been with some of his domestic policies, I believe his keeping the war on terrorism out in front has kept our country safer.

36 posted on 08/16/2008 12:04:50 PM PDT by Allegra (Goodness me, goodness me, industrial disease...)
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To: filbert
That is all pootie understands but I don't know just how effective the Georgian military is even with our equipment.
37 posted on 08/16/2008 12:06:05 PM PDT by rodguy911 (LAND OF THE FREE BECAUSE OF THE BRAVE)
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To: Allegra
Probably the worst thing the President has done(or not done) is not to fight back every time he was attacked from within by the DNC/rats.

From WMD's on down he should have stuffed it all up their butts every time they attacked him and gave him the blame for everything that has ever happened.

38 posted on 08/16/2008 12:10:32 PM PDT by rodguy911 (LAND OF THE FREE BECAUSE OF THE BRAVE)
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To: Lilith Incubus
The war in Iraq should never have been, it was probably the one facet of middle East rogues that could genuinely have waited

Nonsense. If Saddam hadn't been taken out, the world would have sunk deeper into fear these last 8 years, convinced that he was developing WMD.

Besides, he deserved to be taken out just on shooting at fliers in the no-fly zone and oil-for-food abuses alone, even though kicking out the inspectors was enough.

he should have gone to war with real terrorists, and their funders

Under this President, thousands of terrorists have been killed as they were drawn like flies on honey to Iraq. And the money sources which were revealed and shut down are too many to mention.

He may not talk as well as you would like, but he's been incredibly effective in the WOT.

39 posted on 08/16/2008 12:17:12 PM PDT by what's up
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To: MarMema
Mtskheta is still occupied, per a friend I have there.

"Russian soldiers occupying the central Georgian town of Gori also pushed forward 14 miles toward the capital, Tbilisi, setting up positions on the country's main east-west road 25 miles from the capital."

If the article quote is accurate then they should reinforce Mtskheta but not move on to Tbilisi. If the "buffer zone" theory is the correct scenario, that is.

It may mean the Russians will give up Mtskheta in a "pull back" deal.

40 posted on 08/16/2008 12:17:31 PM PDT by TLI ( ITINERIS IMPENDEO VALHALLA)
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To: 82ndABNOfficer

Maybe we already have...


41 posted on 08/16/2008 12:36:15 PM PDT by Virginia Ridgerunner ("We must not forget that there is a war on and our troops are in the thick of it!"--Duncan Hunter)
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To: Lilith Incubus
Bush's strategy in the WOT has been exactly right. In taking the war to Afghanistan and Iraq, he has set up two conditions in both countries:

1) An opportunity for those nations, in the middle of the islamic world, to develop constitutional republics and freedom...which is an example to the rest of the region and the bane to the Mullahs and Ayotollahs who want to rigidly control their people.

2) He has set up fly traps where the enemy terorists have been drawn of necessity to fight our forces and keep them from accomplishing number one. In so doing the infrastructure and leadership of the terrorists have been decimated, and their footsoldiers have been killed by the tens of thosuands...which has completely hampered them from bringing the fight back here to the US.

In doing this, if you would look at a map for a moment, the US has completely hemmed in the #1 sponsor of terror in the world, Iran. This is no accident. In using the Persina Guf and Arabian Sea to support or activities in Iraq and Afhganistan, the Mullahs are cut off from the sea, they have US forces to their west and US forces to their east. Again, this was no accident.

Now, it is true that we have a large part of the electorate in this country, and it is tragic really, that are so hooked on the social progams and handouts that the Democrats offer, that they are opposing the effort in the middle of a war. But this same situation was vetted in the last election and the majority of Americans came down on the side of fighting these wars and defeating the enemy...which Bush has gone forward with.

Now we face, in essence, the same challenge and opposition, and I believe it will come down the same way.

The US is winning this war and Bush has been correct in his strategy. I believe history will remember him well for that, as the one who through his vision and tenacity brought the opportunity for the blessings of liberty to tens of millions in the middle east. No one else has done that, while at the same time taking the fight to the Islamic Jhadists.

To best exemplify my own feelings on the matter, and I believce many other Americans, let me share with you a conversation I had with a Frenchman at the US memorial at Normandy about a year and nine months ago.

I was in France to pick up my son, who had just served a two year mission for our church there. We had been all over the country for a week visiting every place he had served. We were leaving the next day and took that day before to visit and pay our respects to the fallen American heroes of Normandy. My interest was more than passing, I had lost an Uncle, my mother's only brother, over Germany in the war on a bombing mission after the D-Day invasions.

As we were walking, two Frenchmen came by. We were speaking english and they stopped and asked if we were Americans. My son responded in fluent French and the two of them, my 22 year old son and this fiftyish Frenchman spoke for a few minutes.

At the end, the Frenchman turned to me and asked in English if my son would probably be going home to an American that had changed somewhat since he had come there. He said,

"Perhaps your son will find that President Bush is not held in such high esteeem anymore when he get's home because of his war in Iraq?"

I asked him if he wanted to know my thoughts on the matter, and he said yes.

I said to him,

"You know, my son and I are hear to honor the ten thousand dead Americans who are buried in that field over there who came here and died liberating your country...and I do not think at the moment that that has anything to do with George Bush or Iraq." I then told him,

"I'm not finished. Do you suppose that if you, here over sixty three years later, a frenchman who by your won admission respects and is grateful for the sacrifice of young American who gave their blood and their very lives to liberate your country from tyranny...I say if you can be grateful for their sacrifice here on this spot in France, do you suppose that fifty or sixty years from now there will be Iraqi's who are just as grateful for the sacrifice of American blood and lives to liberate them from a tyrant in Iraq? Do you?"

It got quiet. The Frenchman had nothing to say and myself and my son quietly excused ourselves and went on our way to sit by the graveyard for some time, contemplating these issues ourselves.

I believe that is the correct perspective from which to view what President Bush has done.

42 posted on 08/16/2008 12:36:54 PM PDT by Jeff Head (Freedom is not free...never has been, never will be. (www.dragonsfuryseries.com))
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To: gogogodzilla

Ping!


43 posted on 08/16/2008 12:49:15 PM PDT by BenLurkin
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To: Jeff Head

well said


44 posted on 08/16/2008 12:50:26 PM PDT by AprilfromTexas
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To: Canticle_of_Deborah

It’s like trying to make deals with Democrats...hmmm...


45 posted on 08/16/2008 12:51:05 PM PDT by BenLurkin
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To: what's up
Nonsense. If Saddam hadn't been taken out, the world would have sunk deeper into fear these last 8 years, convinced that he was developing WMD

Reality was, he wasn't, and only a few who had access to privileged intelligence, were confident he was, whilst Iran, N.Korea, Russia, and every Country with a fundamentalist Islamic subculture was either developing them, or planning to use their existing ones against the West, Blair and Bush were intent on removing, ironically, the only leader in the middle East who counterbalanced the effects of global jihadis.

In the meantime the real threat was developing their stratagem.

Question for you, would you, if you were a pragmatic leader, see Russia, Iran, N.Korea or Iraq as the most dangerous rogue state? And, you can answer that, with your opinion of 5 years ago if you wish.
I think Iraq was the least dangerous of the 4.
I think anyone who answes that truthfully would never put Iraq higher than 3rd.

I really don't think the WOT has been a success, sure there has been some leaders taken out in the process, but for every one that has, five have taken their place.
I think Iraq has had the effect of stirring the resolve of all the middle East jihadis, look what happened all over Europe after, and what is ongoing and growing.
Maybe the Islamic fundamentalists would have reacted as such without Iraq, but nonetheless, the war on Iraq has given the fundamentalists a new mantra to bind to.
We Europeans have this very issue stuffed down our throats by politicians and Islamic jihadis that live beside us in our Cities.

He may not talk as well as you would like, but he's been incredibly effective in the WOT.

I think that reads better as:

He may not talk as well as you would like, but he's been incredibly determined in the WOT.

I really like Bush, I don't think he's achieved as much as he could have, given the scale of the issues he's had to deal with.
I bet if he did it all again, he'd do it differently, now the political climate has changed so dramatically, I'd like to think he'd be more true to himself.
46 posted on 08/16/2008 1:02:10 PM PDT by Lilith Incubus
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To: lodi90
If the Georgians fight back at this point the KGB will just send their armor into the capitol and depose the Georgian government.

The Russians would definitely counter attack. If we supply them with missiles, and I think we should, we need to send them over in the thousands. Hand one to every soldier.

47 posted on 08/16/2008 1:13:23 PM PDT by faq
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To: Jeff Head
Hi Jeff.

I've read lots of your posts, and agree with lots of your perspectives.

Please don't think I'm Bush Bashing here, I'm not, I think he seems kinda muddled up when we Europeans see him, and I think that is because he tries very hard to exude a Liberal undertone when he speaks, which looks fake (and probably is).

For what it's worth, I think Bush is post modern in his appraisal on the state of world politics, but really, and I really mean this, I feel Bush has held back in the WOT in his stint as President.
I think with genuine European support, he'd have spoken, and acted along a much harder line.

My suggestion that Iraq was possibly a softer target was of course entirely in line with your own appraisal of the strategy, to put the cat amongst the pigeons if you will.
I think when he talks about the 'War On Terror', implementing the Iraqi 'cat' was about as far as he was willing to push the issue, with really, only genuine support from England. This is why I'm disappointed he chose Iraq as a route into the WOT.
I think with unilateral European support, he'd have gone the whole hog and took on the jihadis proper.
I feel that ironically, this would have put the West in a stronger position with Russia too, who seem aghast at how far left the World is going.

I'm so angry with the European leaders for compromising the fundamental infrastructure of democracy, in order to appease oil rich nations.

If he had be granted the genuine support of Europe against the fundamentalist threat the whole world now faces, I think he would have been more candid about where the roots of the future threat lies, we all know it's fundamentalist Islam, rooted in the veins of Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Iran, North Africa and the like.


48 posted on 08/16/2008 1:40:33 PM PDT by Lilith Incubus
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To: Spok

The question our president must consider is whether saving Georgia is worth war with Russia, possibly nuclear.”

Hardly. The question goes not to the US President, but the President of Georgia and his people. They will fight for their democratic sovereignty when bullied by the Russian hegemon. Of course this wont escalate to nuclear war, but it sure coudl escalate to the biggest Russian blunder since their Afghan misadventure of the 1980s.

“The Russian imperative in keeping a military threat from its back door is the same as ours was in October, 1962.”

Hardly. the Russians incited this mini-war with the specific goals of bringing former USSR back together, bit by bit. Its a re-imperialism agenda.

“We Americans are too often guilty of thinking of wars as events that we participate in in foreign countries, but we have to consider the reality of fighting the next one in our own front yard.”

We are all georgians now. If you think about what would WE do if a country invaded our land ... that’s what the Georgian Govt and people would do. Defend it at all costs.


49 posted on 08/16/2008 1:55:22 PM PDT by WOSG (http://no-bama.blogspot.com/ - NObama, stop the Hype and Chains candidate)
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To: Jeff Head
Regarding the comments of the French pewople you spoke to, I'm not surprised that was the response, My Country has been torn beyond all recognition by Liberal student leaders, their philosophies and the associated dismantling of our history, culture and way of life.

Luckily, opinions seem to be changing in France and elsewhere in Europe, when we travel just a few Km from Avenue des Champs-Élysées and the Arc de Triomphe, one can see the forced immigration no go areas in Paris, it's a real ghetto, and it's these areas where the threat of the future may grow from.
50 posted on 08/16/2008 1:59:36 PM PDT by Lilith Incubus
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