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Opinion: Doug Kmiec on McCain v. Obama at Saddleback
Catholic Online ^ | 8/18/08 | Douglas W. Kmiec

Posted on 08/18/2008 5:05:54 PM PDT by tcg

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If we are to follow the model of Pastor Warren’s “civil forum,” as Catholics we need to undertake to address abortion in its full social justice context and in as great a spirit of charity and friendship as remains possible in American politics.
1 posted on 08/18/2008 5:05:55 PM PDT by tcg
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To: tcg

Interesting, but appears to be an Obama supporter, and skirts around Obama’s rejection of the born-alive protection act.


2 posted on 08/18/2008 5:11:00 PM PDT by hsalaw
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To: tcg

The author is obviously a “social justice” (socialist) Catholic.


3 posted on 08/18/2008 5:11:01 PM PDT by Jeff Chandler (A community in Chicago is missing an organizer.)
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To: hsalaw

His article goes on to berate Catholics for being closed to understanding and helping pregnant women. By that he means government programs.


4 posted on 08/18/2008 5:12:13 PM PDT by Jeff Chandler (A community in Chicago is missing an organizer.)
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To: tcg
And with the Catholic mind so totally closed to alternative means to reduce abortion, ...

It appears the gentleman is in dissent from more than the voting guidelines, since he must know that the "Catholic mind" is profoundly and creatively engaged in reducing abortion by promoting chastity, fidelity, and charity. "Willful ignorance" is the phrase that comes to mind.

5 posted on 08/18/2008 5:15:51 PM PDT by Tax-chick (Obama: Can't kill the innocent fast enough, can't free the guilty soon enough!~ Diana in WI)
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To: tcg; wagglebee; NYer; Salvation; narses; fatima

I swear this guy is a fifth columnist. If Pope Benedict were debating Obama it would be Obama “nuanced, nuanced, nuanced,” and Pope Benedict “says all the right things” but it’s not good enough.


6 posted on 08/18/2008 5:16:35 PM PDT by Norman Bates (Freepmail me to be part of the McCain List!)
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To: tcg
Catholics we need to undertake to address abortion in its full social justice context

Which is what?

7 posted on 08/18/2008 5:17:58 PM PDT by MNJohnnie (http://www.iraqvetsforcongress.com ---- Get involved, make a difference.)
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To: tcg

Laura Ingraham tore CINO moral relativist Kmiec a new dirt chute on her show this morning.


8 posted on 08/18/2008 5:26:31 PM PDT by A.A. Cunningham
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To: Jeff Chandler
The Obama campaign had thoughtfully arranged for my wife and myself to attend the forum

'nuff said right there. The first sentence telegraphs the rest of the article.

9 posted on 08/18/2008 5:28:04 PM PDT by Right Brother
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To: Norman Bates

Doug Kmiec was on Laura Ingraham early am you might catch a replay.

Laura ripped him a new one. My cat has more smarts.

Doug is a typical academic with no real world knowledge.


10 posted on 08/18/2008 5:28:26 PM PDT by SoCalPol (Don't Blame Me - I Supported Duncan Hunter)
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To: Jeff Chandler

I’m not sure that’s true. I have enormous respect for Doug Kmiec, who is a friend and fellow parishoner at Our Lady of Malibu. He is an extremely intelligent, experienced, thoughtful man who attends daily Mass. He does support Obama, which baffles me.


11 posted on 08/18/2008 5:33:06 PM PDT by karnage
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To: tcg

Doug, you are risking your soul on this one.

No, McCain is not perfectly pro-life because of the stem cell exception. But Obama is a baby-killer, pure and simple.

For a self-annointed “pro-life Catholic” to defend that is totally evil and disgusting.


12 posted on 08/18/2008 5:35:12 PM PDT by Cicero (Marcus Tullius)
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To: tcg
Blah, blah, blah, blah. Doug Kmiec supports Obama. Check out some of these links!

Niece of Martin Luther King Jr. to Lead Prayer Vigil Outside Largest U.S. Abortion Centre
Campaign Admits Obama Lied About Abortion Vote, Media Asleep
Obama “pay grade” comment purposely ignores SCIENTIFIC FACT that LIFE BEGINS AT CONCEPTION
Barack Obama Repeats False Claim Abortions Haven't Declined Under Bush
Obama and Abortion

Obama Says Right to Life Coalition Is Lying About His Record
Barack Obama Says Pro-Life Group Lying About His Pro-Infanticide Votes
Obama's infanticide problem>
Obama and McCain Woo Catholics
Obama's Christian Creds Vs. Abortion and Infanticide

Obama's 10 reasons for supporting infanticide
Mommy Won't Help Dems on Abortion
Abortion Leader Confirms that Democratic Platform is More Pro-Abortion than Ever
Obama More Than An Abortion Radical
Obama’s Abortion Lies (Obama cover-up on born-alive survivors bill)

Life with Obama: Abortion champion
Knighting the Catholic Vote (K of C urging Catholics to vote pro-life)
Linda Chavez: Obama’s Catholic problem
Catholic Voters and 2008
Barack Obama Supports the Murder of Newborn Infants

Obama Lied About Abortion Record
What Barack Obama defended three times: Live Birth Abortion
[OPEN] Supreme K of C Calls for Real "Change" on Abortion and Catholic Revolt against Obama Nation
Obama's Catholic Problem ( Linda Chavez )
Obama’s View on Abortion May Divide Catholics ( "May Divide?" )

Obama loses 26 points among Catholics
Barack Obama's Wife Michelle to Join Hillary Clinton at Pro-Abortion Dinner
OPINION: Senator Obama and the Wall of the Womb
Barack Obama's Pledge to Overturn Every Pro-Life Abortion Law One Year Old
Obama Worse than Clintons on Abortion Says National Right to Life Leader Interview-SCOTUS Critical

Roman Catholics for Obama '08
OBAMA TO CATHOLICS: NO VOUCHERS
How can Catholics for Obama rationalize their support for the pro-choice candidate?
Obama’s director of Catholic Outreach ‘dodges’ opportunity to reach Catholics
Barack Obama Slams John McCain For Opposing Abortion, Activist Judges

Catholics and Obama
COMMENTARY: Quandry for Catholics At Election Time
The Latest Refinement (Obama on Abortion)
CNN Runs Biased News Story Covering Up Barack Obama’s Pro-Abortion Record
Jill Stanek: Obama's biggest lie about supporting infanticide
The Battle for Catholic Voters

New Report Indicates Voters Most Interested in Barack Obama’s Position on Abortion
Deal Hudson: Obama and Infanticide?
Ad asks Obama: ‘If fatherhood begins at conception, when does life begin?’
Embryonic stem-cell research immoral, unnecessary, bishops say
Catholics should not vote for Obama
Catholic Caucus: It is a sin to vote/support Obama/DNC [abortion]

More Catholics leaning towards Democrats, poll reports (really not Catholics)
The Catholic-Obama Problem (Pope Benedict XVI instructs Catholics about pro-abortion candidates)
Obama's Abortion Bombshell: Unrestricted Abortion....
NARAL Catholics Line Up for Obama
Editorial: Disagreeing with Doug Kmiec One More Time
State-Funded Embryo Research "Makes Taxpayers Complicit in Killing", say Bishops

McCain Meets Privately with Fr. Pavone - Says Constitutional Right to Life Applies to Unborn
Faithful Citizenship: “Catholic Vote” is very sought after
Has Obama dissolved his Catholic advisory council?
Commentary: Faithful Citizenship and the Formed Conscience
Catholic League: Where's Obama's 'Catholic Advisory Council'? [Not to be found!]
Right-wing Christians beginning to lean left (Misleading headline)

Catholics Debate Obama Vote
US Bishops Urge Voters to Give Priority to Life [Ecumenical]
Corralling the Catholic vote: Political necessity or pipe dream?
DOUG KMIEC: Catholic Reasons for Hope in the General Election
EDITORIAL: Why This Catholic Dreads the Campaign
The Catholic-Obama Problem (Pope Benedict XVI instructs Catholics about pro-abortion candidates)
Thoughts On ‘Roman Catholics For Obama’

How Obama's Catholics Will Dodge the Infanticide Question
Catholic Pro-Life Leader Feuds With Barack Obama's "Catholic" Backers
McCain and the Pope: McCain cannot win in November without the Catholic vote (Reagan re-visited?)
Catholics Cannot Vote for Pols Who Support Abortion, Except for Morally Grave Reasons: KY Bishops

13 posted on 08/18/2008 5:35:29 PM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: Jeff Chandler

In our town Catholics support three homes for unwed mothers that are constantly filled. What nonsense about Catholics not helping women.

The difference is Catholics help the woman AND the baby!


14 posted on 08/18/2008 5:36:47 PM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: antonius

15 posted on 08/18/2008 5:39:30 PM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: hsalaw

Whatever this man Kmiec is, he is not a conservative.

Or I guess you could call him an Andrew Sullivan “conservative”.


16 posted on 08/18/2008 5:40:29 PM PDT by WilliamReading
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To: karnage
He does support Obama, which baffles me.

Kmiec used to be a sort of conservative. Why and how he's been seduced to the dark side is anyone's guess. It's clear, though, that he's now intoxicated on Obama's Kool-Aid.
17 posted on 08/18/2008 5:43:30 PM PDT by irishjuggler
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To: xsmommy; redgirlinabluestate; cpforlife.org

Put your waders on - it’s deep.

Catholics ‘don’t understand alternatives to abortion.’

Oh, and Obama shows great humility. I swear someone zapped half the country with mind numbing rays.


**snip**

In this, there is no effort to address underlying cause and certainly no extension of empathy with the poverty or the ignorance or the cruelty that may lie behind the morally tragic contemplation of a woman to take the life of her own child. And with the Catholic mind so totally closed to alternative means to reduce abortion, it then often remains closed to every aspect of the social justice teaching of the Catholic tradition – whether it be providing a living wage, decent shelter, adequate prenatal care or the preservation of the created environment.

If we are to follow the model of Pastor Warren’s “civil forum,” as Catholics we need to undertake to address abortion in its full social justice context and in as great a spirit of charity and friendship as remains possible in American politics. John McCain told us what we wanted to hear. It is less clear he told us what we needed to know to open the Catholic mind – not to the acceptance of evil, but to its amelioration by means other than condemnation.



18 posted on 08/18/2008 5:43:55 PM PDT by Canticle_of_Deborah
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To: karnage

what is his explanation to his friends for this insanity? laura and wendy on the show today count themselves as friends and colleagues of Doug’s, and he could not answer them in any meaningful way. they were beyond perplexed. i know of this man and what he has believed and stood for in the past, even as recently as this past spring when he was an advisor to Mitt Romney for judicial appointments, along with Wendy Long. What can possibly explain his turn to lunacy?


19 posted on 08/18/2008 5:44:03 PM PDT by xsmommy
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To: karnage

Doug sounded like he was programed and someone wound him up when he was on Laura’s this morning.

When Laura could get a word in, and ask him a question, he just went in circles.

I guess he doesn’t have a problem with Obama’s Marxist friends and supporters not to mention Obama’s Marxist views.


20 posted on 08/18/2008 5:46:42 PM PDT by SoCalPol (Don't Blame Me - I Supported Duncan Hunter)
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To: Canticle_of_Deborah

as you and i have discussed, i want an explanation from him. i would be BEATING IT OUT OF HIM, were he my friend! LOL!~
i could not let it rest. it is one thing if he decided, in the quiet of his soul, to vote for obama, but he is putting himself out there as a posterboy for a democrat Catholic and giving cover to otherwise faithful Catholics who would want to vote for obama. it is an abomination and he has to be called to account for this.


21 posted on 08/18/2008 5:47:57 PM PDT by xsmommy
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To: xsmommy

I’m still waiting for Doug to explain to me personally his support for Obama. Don’t know if he ever will.


22 posted on 08/18/2008 5:48:16 PM PDT by karnage
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To: karnage

Sometimes you cannot see the forest for the trees.

LLS


23 posted on 08/18/2008 5:48:33 PM PDT by LibLieSlayer ( REAGANISM not communism)
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To: tcg; Coleus; nickcarraway; narses; Mr. Silverback; Canticle_of_Deborah; TenthAmendmentChampion; ...
The link below is a transcript of Doug Kmiec from 1996. Comparing it to today and his support of Obama is almost beyond believable.

Kmiec covers up for Obama's outright pride and promotion of the American Holocaust with "social justice context" crap. This is the same as covering for Hitler by noting the quality and efficiency of the trains.

Kmiec is sick in the head--to be diplomatic.

TESTIMONY OF DOUGLAS W. KMIEC
PROFESSOR OF CONSTITUTIONAL LAW
“The Origins and Scope of Roe v. Wade.”

http://judiciary.house.gov/legacy/2187.htm

24 posted on 08/18/2008 5:58:48 PM PDT by cpforlife.org (A Catholic Respect Life Curriculum is available FREE at CpForLife.org)
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To: MHGinTN

PING to link in 24. Excellent refernce from a once excellent Pro-Life defender.


25 posted on 08/18/2008 6:01:25 PM PDT by cpforlife.org (A Catholic Respect Life Curriculum is available FREE at CpForLife.org)
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To: SoCalPol

The guy just doesn’t want to admit he was wrong and immoral to support Obama. Saddleback made it clear as daylight. He even spins in his article deliberately “ignoring” (yeah right) McCain being “wildly optimistic” about non embryo-destroying research replacing ESCR. Way to go, Doug.


26 posted on 08/18/2008 6:12:27 PM PDT by Norman Bates (Freepmail me to be part of the McCain List!)
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To: Canticle_of_Deborah

Sounded to me like Kmiec said the Catholic position is supposed to be somewhere neat appeasement. Ok, Doug.


27 posted on 08/18/2008 6:14:09 PM PDT by Norman Bates (Freepmail me to be part of the McCain List!)
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To: Cicero

Perhaps he is not an actual pro-life Catholic.


28 posted on 08/18/2008 6:14:43 PM PDT by MHGinTN (Believing they cannot be deceived, they cannot be convinced when they are deceived.)
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*near appeasement.


29 posted on 08/18/2008 6:15:18 PM PDT by Norman Bates (Freepmail me to be part of the McCain List!)
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To: Tax-chick; Jeff Chandler; tcg
"And with the Catholic mind so totally closed to alternative means to reduce abortion, it then often remains closed to every aspect of the social justice teaching of the Catholic tradition – whether it be providing a living wage, decent shelter, adequate prenatal care or the preservation of the created environment."

This absolutely baffles me. Kmiec certainly must know that Catholics were heavily invested in Pregnancy Aid Centers and many, many other initiatives to support women --- especially poor and young women --- in making life-affirming choices for themselves and their babies.

Good heavens, "Birthright," the premiere pregnancy assistance group, was founded I think in 1967, six years before Roe vs Wade.

And Catholics have been in the forefront of the whole movement to understand pro-life in its wider setting as the foundation of human rights.

If I didn't know Kmiec was an intelligent and devout man. I'd think he was an ignorant yob. (Slapping brow repeatedly.) You see my problem.

30 posted on 08/18/2008 6:20:57 PM PDT by Mrs. Don-o (Mammalia Primatia Hominidae Homo sapiens. Still working on the "sapiens" part.)
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To: tcg

I used to respect Kmiec before he was mesmerized by B.O.


31 posted on 08/18/2008 6:28:19 PM PDT by Malesherbes
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To: tcg

It would be nice to be able to follow the money. One wonders what Mr. Kmiec might be gaining financially for his embrace of death and murder.


32 posted on 08/18/2008 6:28:28 PM PDT by sitetest (If Roe is not overturned, no unborn child will ever be protected in law.)
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To: karnage
I have enormous respect for Doug Kmiec, who is a friend and fellow parishoner at Our Lady of Malibu. He is an extremely intelligent, experienced, thoughtful man who attends daily Mass.

His reasoning lacks logic. Here's a logical breakdown of his resaoning:

A RESPONSE TO DOUG KMIEC.

He also is a global warming True Believer, cites "racially segregated public schools that don't teach" (then goes on to endorse the Party responsible for the academic irresponsibility), talks about us as "a nation of immigrants that won't welcome any more of them." (look around you and tell me we don't welcome PLENTY of immigrants).

But what galls me is the accusation that Catholics don't give a damn about mothers. He indicates this in his litany against us:

with the Catholic mind so totally closed to alternative means to reduce abortion, it then often remains closed to every aspect of the social justice teaching of the Catholic tradition – whether it be providing a living wage, decent shelter, adequate prenatal care or the preservation of the created environment.

as if charity is crap and only Government redistribution counts as "caring".

Yep. He's a socialist.

33 posted on 08/18/2008 6:30:27 PM PDT by Jeff Chandler (A community in Chicago is missing an organizer.)
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To: karnage
He is an extremely intelligent, experienced, thoughtful man who attends daily Mass.

Many leftist theologians, or in fact communists and Muslim imams (except the daily-mass thing), are intelligent, experienced, and thoughtful persons.

34 posted on 08/18/2008 6:42:01 PM PDT by paudio (Kerry had Global Test, Obama has Global Tax.)
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To: tcg; informavoracious; larose; RJR_fan; Prospero; Conservative Vermont Vet; V V Camp Enari 67-68; ..
+

Freep-mail me to get on or off my pro-life and Catholic List:

Add me / Remove me

Please ping me to note-worthy Pro-Life or Catholic threads, or other threads of interest.

35 posted on 08/18/2008 7:07:53 PM PDT by narses (...the spirit of Trent is abroad once more.)
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Comment #36 Removed by Moderator

To: paudio

I do not think he is intelligent. He was furious that the USSC recognized the individual right inherent in the 2nd amendment. He is for very strict gun control and banning of handguns. He had a relative (brother in law I believe) murdered. He is so intelligent he blames the firearm.


37 posted on 08/18/2008 7:29:23 PM PDT by therut
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To: tcg
Doug Kmiec supports Obama, does he not? Something which should be understood when reading this article and which to me is hypocritical as a Catholic. Thus Kmiec's opinions on this topic are hypocritical and thus lose credibility.

I agree with Kmiec about the behavior of the protestors. It's not going to persuade anyone and is more likely to harden people on the opposite side to their position if they aren't hardened already.

But evil needs to be confronted and defeated and we need to say that such is necessary. Too often the message we hear today regarding evil is one of tolerance. There was nothing in McCain's position which led me to believe he would use war as a first resort (unless like on 9/11, we are attacked first) with tyrannical countries with whom we disagree.

38 posted on 08/18/2008 7:39:12 PM PDT by TAdams8591
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To: xsmommy; Canticle_of_Deborah

Agreed with both of your posts. Well said.


39 posted on 08/18/2008 7:43:38 PM PDT by TAdams8591
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To: MHGinTN

Apparently he was, or seemed to be, a pro-life Catholic, according to other pro-lifers who should know.

Then he went around the bend.


40 posted on 08/18/2008 7:57:48 PM PDT by Cicero (Marcus Tullius)
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To: tcg

That Kmiec sold out is not the question, it’s “What was his price”?


41 posted on 08/18/2008 8:23:33 PM PDT by Eagles6 ( Typical White Guy: Christian, Constitutionalist, Heterosexual, Redneck)
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To: tcg
Let`s cut to the chase....the term “pro abortion/pro choice Christian” is simply a oxymoron. Being pro choice/pro abortion, is a disqualifier from the Christian faith. Anybody that holds the view of pro choice/pro abortion does not have the Spirit of Christ within them.

Those that hold those views might just as well eat drink and be merry, because they wont enter the Kingdom of God.

42 posted on 08/18/2008 8:52:02 PM PDT by Friendofgeorge (Obama on the other hand does not know the Lord Jesus, and is only the Lords enemy)
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To: paudio

If you are calling Doug Kmiec a communist, you are way off the mark.


43 posted on 08/18/2008 8:56:25 PM PDT by karnage
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To: karnage
If you are calling Doug Kmiec a communist, you are way off the mark.

Don't try to put words into my mouth. I'm simply stating that many leftist theologians, communists, Muslims, etc., have those qualities.

44 posted on 08/18/2008 11:00:00 PM PDT by paudio (Kerry had Global Test, Obama has Global Tax.)
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To: Canticle_of_Deborah
This is mind-boggling to those of us who know Doug or have followed his career. Doug's support of Obama and his nuanced analysis on abortion is one of the biggest disappointments of this entire election season (you know the other one!). ;-)

I think Doug and others like him are terribly misguided when they include social concerns like racism, immigration and health care under the "culture of life" umbrella. That's not a fatal flaw, in and of itself, until they elevate those causes to the same level of importance as the abortion issue. It's clear that they are sadly confused when they find a moral equivalence between their positions on those other social justice issues and the non-negotiable right to life.

45 posted on 08/18/2008 11:48:37 PM PDT by redgirlinabluestate
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To: Mrs. Don-o

I think it was you who pointed out that the intellectual meltdown necessary to justify contraception distorts one’s perception of everything else. Or maybe it was Pope John Paul.

Or perhaps the gentleman has pernicious anemia and Vitamin B-6 deficiency.


46 posted on 08/19/2008 2:43:29 AM PDT by Tax-chick (Obama: Can't kill the innocent fast enough, can't free the guilty soon enough!~ Diana in WI)
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To: therut
He is so intelligent he blames the firearm.

"Willful ignorance" is the phrase that comes to mind in this context, too. Irrespective of a person's IQ or SAT scores, there's something not-quite-sane about refusing to admit facts that contradict one's preconceptions.

47 posted on 08/19/2008 4:44:23 AM PDT by Tax-chick (Obama: Can't kill the innocent fast enough, can't free the guilty soon enough!~ Diana in WI)
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To: tcg

I for one am sick of hearing from this jerk kmiec. I don’t give a damn what he has to say. What he WAS means nothing to me. What he IS does mean something. He is a phony who wants to put a baby murderer in the White House. He is there for my enemy.


48 posted on 08/19/2008 5:20:21 AM PDT by jmaroneps37 (Conservatism is truth. Liberalism is lies.)
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To: karnage
He is an extremely intelligent, experienced, thoughtful man who attends daily Mass. He does support Obama, which baffles me.

Oxymoron alert!

49 posted on 08/19/2008 7:05:27 AM PDT by mc5cents (Show me just what Mohammd brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman)
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To: karnage
Dear karnage,

“If you are calling Doug Kmiec a communist, you are way off the mark.”

Communist? No.

But “lying baby murderer” seems to fit.

Or "judas."

Perhaps "sellout." We're all wondering how he was compensated for the sale of his soul.


sitetest

50 posted on 08/19/2008 7:16:19 AM PDT by sitetest (If Roe is not overturned, no unborn child will ever be protected in law.)
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