“Help me out here, Madam Speaker” ( “I don't think anybody can tell you when life begins” )

California Catholic Daily ^ | August 25, 2008 | staff

[kellynla]

House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, D-San Francisco, described herself yesterday morning on NBC’s Meet the Press as “an ardent, practicing Catholic,” then told moderator Tom Brokaw and an audience of millions that Church teaching on when human life begins is unclear.

Besides, said Pelosi, even if life does begin at conception, that would not change her pro-abortion views. “The point is, is that it shouldn't have an impact on the woman's right to choose,” she said. “Roe v. Wade talks about very clear definitions of when the child -- first trimester, certain considerations; second trimester; not so third trimester. There's very clear distinctions. This isn't about abortion on demand, it's about a careful, careful consideration of all factors and – to -- that a woman has to make with her doctor and her god.”

Brokaw was quizzing the Speaker on Sen. Barack Obama’s response last week to Pastor Rick Warren’s straightforward question at the Saddleback Forum, “At what point does a baby get human rights, in your view?”

Asked Brokaw, “Senator Obama saying the question of when life begins is above his pay grade, whether you're looking at it scientifically or theologically. If he were to come to you and say, ‘Help me out here, Madam Speaker. When does life begin?’ what would you tell him?”

Here is Pelosi’s response: “I would say that as an ardent, practicing Catholic, this is an issue that I have studied for a long time. And what I know is, over the centuries, the doctors of the church have not been able to make that definition. And Senator -- St. Augustine said at three months. We don't know... And so I don't think anybody can tell you when life begins, human life begins.

[Stayfree]

Perhaps Pelosi is unclear about when life begins because either she herself was born permanently brain-dead or she has her head so far up her @ss that she can’t see things clearly...or more likely both!

[Rennes Templar]

I tell my lib friends that the right to be born trumps the right to choose life. The mother has already had the right to live, her child hasn’t.

[Wonder Warthog]

"The Roman Catholic church, of which she is an ardent member, is bitterly opposed to contraception (and abortion)and has been so for more than 50 yrs."

More like almost 2000 years. The Church's opposition to infanticide, abortion, and contraception goes back to "day one" of the Church. There has been some question on when a human life actually started, as there was zip scientific knowledge of the process of conception and gestation (lots of practical knowledge, of course), but the Church now knows that the individual human life begins with the union of egg cell and sperm cell, and has so taught since that knowledge was available.

[LeGrande]

The ‘problem’ is that life began before conception.

[TexasCajun]

Brokaw interrupted, “The Catholic Church at the moment feels very strongly that it begins at the point of conception.”

[rbmillerjr]

This is one area that Catholics and Protestants should be able to agree on.

Our disdain for Abortion. No Christians or people of faith who are ardently against abortion should let these liar politicians - and that is exactly what they are - liars, get away with their lies about abortion.

We Catholics should take it upon ourselves to write our local newspapers and call Speaker Pelosi and Obama on their lies about Life and Abortion. She outright falsified the Truth of God and politicians need to be held to account for their barbaric policies on the unborn babies - and the lies they weave to justify it.

Certainly here is something that despite our doctrinal differences, Catholics and Protestants can unite on.

[CTK YKC]

Her statement is very not true. The Church’s teaching is very clear. Life is precious from the moment of conception until natural death and at every point in between.

Church teaching is also very clear on the matter that there are certain times when those precious lifes may be taken (death penalty and war for example).

[MrB]

Abortion and homosexuality are the reason that the “liberal tradition” churches exist.

Both destroy the family unit, and consequently, our society.

[tflabo]

“Abortion
Here, too, Professor Maguire argues that because some Catholic theologians do not consider abortion to be always wrong there is no unitary Catholic position on abortion. In fact, he argues that the dominant current of Catholic tradition supports early abortion because some eminent theologians of the past, such as St. Thomas Aquinas, did not believe that a fetus becomes a human person until several weeks after conception. Such judgments about the status of the fetus were based on the relatively primitive biology of the ancient and medieval periods. More importantly, these theologians never drew the conclusion that abortion was morally justified. Since modern biology provides clear evidence of the humanness of the embryo from the moment of conception, today there can be no reason that can justify the taking of innocent human life that occurs in abortion. Contrary to what Professor Maguire asserts, the Catholic tradition has never supported abortion. The Second Vatican Council clearly stated that “[l]ife must be protected with the utmost care from the moment of conception: abortion and infanticide are abominable crimes.”[18] Furthermore, the intrinsic immorality of abortion has been repeatedly and forcefully emphasized by the popes, particularly by Pope John Paul II.[19]”
http://catholicposition.blogspot.com/2008/08/catholic-teaching-on-abortion-us.html

[MrB]

Plain scripture uninterpreted by the Church is clear on those issues as well, so Protestants should have the same viewpoint.

[kellynla]

Anyone who would like to email Pelosi:
http://speaker.house.gov/contact/

[Jvette]

She and others, not just politicians, who have actively supported and facilitated abortion either with money or votes have ex communicated themselves and compound their grave sin each and every time they receive Communion.

It is unfortunate that so many of our bishops are cowards. The Barque of Peter is reeling, but it will not be overwhelmed.

Too many Catholics believe that they are Catholic because they receive Communion rather than understanding that they receive Communion because they are Catholic.

[blondee123]

I would love to know how “Catholic” pro-choice politicians who speak and vote pro-abortion are not automatically excommunicated. It is scandalous to the Church AND perhaps leads weak-minded Catholics astray (i.e., if Nancy Pelosi can feel that way, then so can I).

Wonder how many murders (abortions) all these wonderful "Catholic senators" can account for in their families.

Kennedy comes to mind, that is a big family & he is PRO abortion!

How do they explain being "Catholic" and going 100% against the teachings of the Catholic church & the Pope?

[Scotswife]

“Besides, said Pelosi, even if life does begin at conception, that would not change her pro-abortion views.”

Ok Nancy...so when did Jesus himself become human?
Most would point to the announcement by Gabriel. He would only have been a “clump of cells” at that point.
Not clear?
How about when Mary was only a few months along when she visited Elizabeth and unborn John recognized the unborn Jesus.
How about then?

[I'm ALL Right!]

A new Life, if left alone, would continue on from the moment of conception. It is already, in its DNA, everything it will become physically. Let's see what happens during the first 3 months of development:

week 1 - Baby’s cells are rapidly dividing, multiplying.
week 2 - Gestational sac already visible.
week 3 - Brain and heart are beginning to form.
week 4 - Inner ear, larynx and digestive system forming and circulatory system working well.
week 5 - Arms, hands, genitals, nasal pits form. Also baby is going thru its second set of kidneys.
week 6 - Baby begins to move, brain visible, bones begin to harden, toes form.
weeks 7-8 - Eyes open, elbows and toes fully visible, genitalia almost recognizable, no “tail”.
week 9 - Iris of eye develops, fingernails, head growing larger than body.
week 10 - Brain developed, digestive system active, reflexes work.
week 11 - All baby teeth grown in, intestines moving to abdomen, pancreas producing insulin.
week 12 - Baby can urinate, lungs developed and strengthening.

[Scotswife]

“if you see some movement in the brush, is it moral to shoot at it when you don’t know if it’s a person or not?”

how true!
Libs love to demonize hunters especially when they make this very same mistake.
Only hunters won’t march on washington by the thousands to protect their right to shoot at rustling bushes.

[kellynla]

Ya might want to email that to Pelousy since she either refuses to believe it or is just plain stupid!

[blondee123]

Anyone who would like to email Pelosi: http://speaker.house.gov/contact/

Thanks, I think I'll ask her to explain whys she is Catholic when she supports MURDER!

[rbmillerjr]

Thank you for posting Archbishop Burke’s statement. This is very clear and I will quote it in my editorial regarding Pelosi to my local newspapers.

“Rome, Aug 19, 2008 / (CNA) — Archbishop Raymond Burke, prefect of the Supreme Tribunal of the Apostolic Signatura, the highest judicial authority of the Holy See, said this week that Catholics who publicly support abortion — especially politicians — should not receive Communion, and that ministers of Communion should be responsibly charitable in denying it to them if they ask for it “until they have reformed their lives.”

[geologist]

“Besides, said Pelosi, even if life does begin at conception, that would not change her pro-abortion views. “The point is, is that it shouldn't have an impact on the woman's right to choose,” she said. “Roe v. Wade talks about very clear definitions of when the child — first trimester, certain considerations; second trimester; not so third trimester. There's very clear distinctions. This isn't about abortion on demand, it's about a careful, careful consideration of all factors and – to — that a woman has to make with her doctor and her god.
___________________________________________________________

It is an amazement to me that the discussion and focus continues to be only about the right to life.

WHICH IS CLEAR ... FORM THE MOMENT OF CONCEPTION, THE CELLS ARE ALIVE AND PRODUCING A HUMAN BEING.

However; the argument ignores the reality that abortion is HUGE business with several serious unethical off shoots. The fact that the Federal government pays with tax payers monies for a huge majority of abortions is a scheme of immense proportions.

Why are we not creating serious discussion as to the reality that the government has no business in financing this mammoth enterprise? i(n financing as a business Planned Parenthood). Less than 3% are a life threatening danger to the mother. We have no business underwriting such a huge money costing program ... all in the name of a woman's right to choose. She has a right to choose.

Do not get pregnant if you do not want a child. It is called accountability, and if a mistake is made then it is an unintended consequence of her own actions, except for a rare few cases of rape. We all must live with the results of unintended consequences.

STOP FUNDIN ABORTIONS AND THEY WILL PLUNGE IN NUMBER.
The result of which is millions of babies will not be murdered.

God forgive us for our blindness. Our stubborn stiff necked insistence to be our own god, living under the influence of the prince of this world,Satan. Bring your light to so shine so that all may see your wonders. Life itself is a wonder and we cast it off without remorse or guilt. Let us repent and seek your truth. You have blessed us beyond measure. Thank you Lord.
Amen.

[Deo volente]

“I would say that as an ardent, practicing Catholic, this is an issue that I have studied for a long time.


Obviously not long enough. She forgot to check with the Catechism of the Catholic Church (2270-75) which in no uncertain terms affirms that "human life must be respected and protected absolutely from the moment of conception."

And then there are the documents of Vatican II, which calls abortion an "abominable crime".

A bishop or two needs to step forward and educate her properly.

[kellynla]

You’re more than welcome.

Because, I haven’t seen it published in any of the so called MSM newspapers; everyone should email the article to everyone they know.

[usslsm51]

“And so I don’t think anybody can tell you when life begins, human life begins.” At conception idiot! If it didn’t you wouldn’t have to kill it to get rid of it. Leave it alone and it will grow.

[I'm ALL Right!]

I’m sure I wouldn’t be the first...she sticks her head in the sand or up her *** so she won’t have to face the truth.

[Reaganesque]

Yeah, and Speaker Pelosi makes it a priority in her life to try and live up to most of the 10 Non-Binding Suggestions in Exodus 20 as well.(When she thinks it will win her votes, anyway.)

[spectre]

I don't think God is going to let us get around the fact that life begins at the moment of conception.

sw

[kellynla]

“A bishop or two needs to step forward and educate her properly.”

Oh, Pelousy, Kerry, Kennedy et al don’t need to be educated; they all know when life begins...
they’re just trying to be evasive...only problem is, “evasive” doesn’t get you a passkey into Heaven and it sure as Hell doesn’t give you a right to claim that you are a “practicing Catholic” much less the right to receive the Body & Blood of our Lord Jesus Christ in the sacrament of Holy Communion!

[ishmac]

“I’ve studied all of the Church Fathers and even Augustin thought life began at 3 months, but he wasn’t sure...thus, this has always been a controversey in the Catholic Church.”

She's a damned liar and a scandal. The Church in America is in de facto schism, and "Catholics" like Pelosi are one of the causes of this deplorable state of affairs.

[MHGinTN]

Democrats lie as automatically as they breathe. Nancy Pelicanosi was lying. ...

“The point is, is that it shouldn't have an impact on the woman's right to choose,” she said. “Roe v. Wade talks about very clear definitions of when the child -- first trimester, certain considerations; second trimester; not so third trimester. There's very clear distinctions. This isn't about abortion on demand ... This lying demonspawn has defended partial birth infanticide, so we know she is lying when she tries to make a case for there being restrictions on abortion because of personhood 'approaching'. This sick female sold her soul long ago for empowerment through defending, promoting, and funding the abortion slaughter. But she lies so convincingly ... of course, catholic democrats want the lies to soothe their dead consciences as they defy the Pope's teaching and the teaching of Jesus Himself! Sadly Catholics don't appear too interested in correcting these catholics.

[Miss Didi]

Rush opened his show today blasting Queen Pelosi on this...stay tuned.

[MHGinTN]

By the end of the first three months of his or her lifetime, the new little one is complete, such that just getting bigger is what happens thereafter. EXCEPT in such an organ as the brain, which continues to be built until three to five months AFTER birth. And the essential thign to note is that the new little one builds ALL the tissues and organs for his or her life in the air world, the mother’s body makes none of them after conception occurs and the new life begins to express in cell division.

[BlueSun]

Actually, the Catholic Church didn’t consider abortion to be murder for almost 1900 years. The official Church doctrine until 1869 was that a human soul wasn’t imparted into the fetus until “quickening” which is sometime around 16-17 weeks, which is well into the second trimester. This “delayed ensoulment” or “delayed hominization” was part of the Canon from the beginning. St. Augustine even said that it was not a sin to abort a female fetus for a period much longer than a male fetus.

There was always spirited debate over when ensoulment took place among Catholic scholars, but the delayed ensoulment school was the dominant one.

In 1312, at the Council of Vienne, St. Thomas Aquinas, who opposed abortion and contraception as a sin against marriage, also firmly maintained that it was NOT murder unless the fetus was ensouled with a human soul. Aquinas followed the most consistent theory of ensoulment in the history of Christianity; that first the fetus is endowed with a vegitative soul, then an animal soul, and then, when its body is developed and it is quickened, it is endowed with a human soul.

In 1588, Pope Sixtus V, concerned about rampant prostitution, issued a Papal Bull called Effraenatam, outlawing all contraception and abortion at any stage of pregnancy. His decree lasted for 3 years. in 1591, he died, and his successor, Pope Gregory XIV, rescinded Effraenatum and replaced it with Sedes Apostolica, which restored the “ensoulment” period to the fetus’s animation (quickening).

In 1869, Popr Pius IX was campaigning within the Church to have the doctrine of “Papal Infallability” accepted into the Canon. He sought the support of France’s Napolean III. Napolean, worried over a century-long decline in French population, offered a deal. If the Pope would outlaw ALL abortions, Napoleon would support Papal Infallability. The deal was struck and Pius issued Apostolicae Sedis, calling for excommunication (the penalty for murder) for abortion at any stage of pregnancy.

Pius IX’s ruling was finally added to the Code of Canon Law in 1917, only 91 years ago.

So, ironically, Pelosi’s position is in agreement with Catholic and general Christian dogma for 95% of the existince of Christianity, while the idea of ensoulment at conception is a very recent change in the official dogma.

It is also ironic that so many people who feel so passionately that all abortion is, ipso facto, murder of an ensouled human, have no idea how recently this concept was adopted in Christianity. For most of its history, Pelosi’s view was much closer to the truth. The ignorance of most modern Christians to the history of their own theology continues to amaze and astound me.

[kellynla]

and the link for your “history” is?

[new cruelty]

Wow. Just wow. Well, more than wow... but just wow for now.

[Righter-than-Rush]

“Don’t believe the Bible! Anything but the Bible! It can’t be true when it says life begins at conception! It just can’t! I don’t know why, it just can’t! Think of another explanation. Here’s a billion dollars, go develop an answer that gullible people addicted to media will believe! Hurry! My floor time is over in five minutes!”

[doug from upland]

Skip to comments.(archives) DFU SONG: All Out of Love (abortion song)
DFU SONG PARODIES | 1-22-03 | Lyrics, Doug from Upland

Posted on 01/22/2003 5:21:34 PM PST by doug from upland

MIDI - ALL OUT OF LOVE

It’s twenty one weeks and the baby is ill
But what is the doctor to do?
He’s there in the womb and there isn’t much hope
A miracle soon comes true
Mom says “Operate…because Samuel needs help”
The whole thing is very well planned
The doctor’s surprised when his finger is grabbed
“My God, it is Samuel’s hand…tiny hand

They’re not tissue mass…they are not a choice, now
Come join if you will…by raising your voice now
They’re not tissue mass…my God, they are babies
Abortion is wrong…it’s got to be stopped somehow

For too many years many babies like him
Were ripped from their safe mother’s womb
Purveyors of death taking innocent life
Hell waits for those in that room

They’re selfish and cruel…they are evil indeed
How many more babies must die?
We can’t turn our heads…we all have to stand up
We hear the angels cry…angels cry

They’re not tissue mass…they are not a choice, now
Come join if you will…by raising your voice now
They’re not tissue mass…my God, they are babies
Abortion is wrong…it’s got to be stopped somehow

Oh, how many more must die…can't you hear angels cry?
How many more must die…can't you hear angels cry?

They’re not tissue mass…they are not a choice, now
Come join if you will…by raising your voice now
They’re not tissue mass…my God, they are babies
Abortion is wrong…it’s got to be stopping

They’re not tissue mass…they are not a choice, now
Come join if you will…by raising your voice now
They’re not tissue mass…my God, they are babies
Abortion is wrong…it’s got to be stopping

They’re not tissue mass…they are not a choice, now
Come join if you will…by raising your voice now
They’re not tissue mass…my God, they are babies
Abortion is wrong…it’s got to be stopping

[new cruelty]

... So, ironically, Pelosi’s position is in agreement with Catholic and general Christian dogma for 95% of the existince of Christianity, while the idea of ensoulment at conception is a very recent change in the official dogma. ...

Summing it up- pelosi disagrees with current Catholic and general Christian dogma and is clutching onto anything in the past that would support murdering unborn children.

[doug from upland]

ANTI-ABORTION SONG ON YOUTUBE - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zuLT0vFceD8

[kellynla]

Well, what about it, Newbie...
gotta a link for that “history” you posted...

[doug from upland]

[BlueSun]

I wonder how many Christians actually do live up to the 10 Commandments in Exodus 20. The Second Commandment says:

Exodus 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven [sculpted] image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

It is the reason that Protestant denominations use a plain Cross, without the graven image of the body of Jesus hung on it.

Since the entire Catholic faith revolves around the use of graven images, from the Christmas Creche to the statues of Jesus and Mary, statues of Jesus on the Cross, and the pantheon of saints, the Catholic Church conveniently removed the Second Commandment as if it had never existed, moved Commandments 3 through 9 down one in number, and split up the Tenth Commandment into two, to cover the gap.

At least the Protestant version of the Ten Commandments stays faithful to that of the Old Testament.

By the way, how many modern Christians have stoned somebody to death for working on the Sabbath? How many have stoned their own child for acting disrespectful and failing to honor his or her father or mother?

Leviticus 20:9 For whatsoever man there be that curseth his father or his mother shall surely be put to death; he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall be upon him.

For that matter, how many have read Leviticus and marveled at all of the laws that Christians (and all but the most Orthodox Jews) cheerfully ignore. It seems that, in the entire book of Leviticus, the only law that is still quoted today is the injunction against man lying down with man as with woman (it is the basis for Christian condemnation of homosexuality).

"One day a man was asked if there were any true atheists. Do you think, he replied, there are any true Christians?"

~Denis Diderot, Pensées philosophiques, 1746

[BlueSun]

I don't have the link handy, since this is a copy of a previous post I made elsewhere. But the sole source for all of the information is from the website of the Catholic University of America.

[BlueSun]

You have the unfortunate tendency to put words in others’ mouths to change their meaning when their arguments do not support your own belief. How convenient for you.

I was just pointing out that Christians throughout history have disagreed and debated when a fetus is ensouled and when or whether abortion is or is not murder. Pelosi is within that tradition. In fact, if it weren’t for a deal made by Pius IX and Napolean III, to get Napolean’s endorsement of Papal Infallibility, it is not totally beyond the ken that the Church would STILL not consider abortion to be murder during the first four months or so.

It is you who miss the entire point - that for 1869 years, the official Catholic position was that abortion before ensoulment WAS NOT MURDERING UNBORN CHILDREN.

In fact, the penance for abortion (which was sometimes treated as a minor sin against marriage) was the same as for masturbation, and far, far less than that of ‘serious’ sins like adultery.

You can use emotionally-laden words to cover up the fact that you are not offering a reasoned rebuttal to my post (which came straight from the website of the Catholic University of America, BTW). Please try to stick to reason and facts, and not just jingoism.

BTW, I am not totally unfamiliar with Christian theology, or that of the other major religions, as I once was an associate professor of Comparative Religions at a major western university before I gave up teaching, frustrated by the intellectual laziness, as well as the low intellectual quality of too many of the students.

[BlueSun]

Given that at least Evangelical Christians believe in the inerrancy of a 2,000 year old book (and the history of interpretation given to it by two millenia of Christian scholars), your willingness to diss pelosi for “clutching onto anything in the past that would “support murdering unborn children” is astonishing. So you would dismiss St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas as well as 1,900 years of Christian dogma as merely “anything in the past” supporting murder. Interrrrrresting....

Did Christianity just erupt out of the ether in the past century? By the way, the past history of Christianity DOES NOT support murdering unborn children, it explains why abortion before ensoulment at quickening is NOT MURDERING UNBORN CHILDREN.

Sheesh, try to read for context next time.

[grellis]

The ignorance of most modern Christians to the history of their own theology continues to amaze and astound me.

How is this not anything but completely going off on a tangent???

If you want to discuss Christian theology in the context of history, post a thread on the Religion forum.

[new cruelty]

Oh no, now I have upset you by attacking pelosi. Remain calm. I’m merely pointing out that nancy wants to murder unborn children and will claw onto anything that will further that cause. That’s pretty much it.

[BlueSun]

No moral issue is as simple and black-and-white as most people make it. Lets try out a thought experiment.

You see a building on fire and hear a child screaming for help. When you enter the burning building, you see that it is an in-vitro fertilization lab. To your left is a 3-year-old girl cowering fearfully in the corner, screaming in terror. To your right, on a table, is a tray of a dozen fertilized ova waiting to be implanted in womens' wombs. The ova had been extracted from the womens' ovaries and fertilized just hours before with their husbands' sperm.

The fire is spreading and you only have time to rescue one or the other. Do you rescue the one human being in the corner, or the twelve human beings in the tray?

Once you have come up with an answer to that, let's make it even more difficult - the child is your daughter and two of the fertilized ova are from you and your spouse.

I'm not trying to be a wiseguy here, just to add some depth to an issue that is usually rendered by both sides into simplistic excluded-middle (black-or-white) positions.

[new cruelty]

Settle down. You’re getting bent out of shape. It is not my intent to convince you. You yourself stated nancy disagrees with current dogma. And I agree with you.

[kellynla]

Yea, well, Newbie, I suggest you bring your homework and be prepared to defend your posts when you come to a debate or don’t post.

Your “history” is inaccurate. And when you find your link to your “history”, let us know.

In the meantime, here is a link to what the earliest beliefs of the Church and even B.C. regarding abortion were.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01046b.htm

[BlueSun]

An odd request. Haven't you been reading the thread? The entire thrust of this thread on pelosi has revolved around Christianity - in particular Catholicism - and its teachings on abortion. The history of those teachings is critical to understanding what pelosi and her detractors are saying. Or does it bother you to look beneath the surface jingoism and cliches?

Do you single me out after close to 100 posts, virtually all religion-based (when they are not just gratuitous insults of an admittedly ridiculous woman) just because you disagree with me? Where has the Free in FreeRepublic gone?