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To: kellynla

Actually, the Catholic Church didn’t consider abortion to be murder for almost 1900 years. The official Church doctrine until 1869 was that a human soul wasn’t imparted into the fetus until “quickening” which is sometime around 16-17 weeks, which is well into the second trimester. This “delayed ensoulment” or “delayed hominization” was part of the Canon from the beginning. St. Augustine even said that it was not a sin to abort a female fetus for a period much longer than a male fetus.

There was always spirited debate over when ensoulment took place among Catholic scholars, but the delayed ensoulment school was the dominant one.

In 1312, at the Council of Vienne, St. Thomas Aquinas, who opposed abortion and contraception as a sin against marriage, also firmly maintained that it was NOT murder unless the fetus was ensouled with a human soul. Aquinas followed the most consistent theory of ensoulment in the history of Christianity; that first the fetus is endowed with a vegitative soul, then an animal soul, and then, when its body is developed and it is quickened, it is endowed with a human soul.

In 1588, Pope Sixtus V, concerned about rampant prostitution, issued a Papal Bull called Effraenatam, outlawing all contraception and abortion at any stage of pregnancy. His decree lasted for 3 years. in 1591, he died, and his successor, Pope Gregory XIV, rescinded Effraenatum and replaced it with Sedes Apostolica, which restored the “ensoulment” period to the fetus’s animation (quickening).

In 1869, Popr Pius IX was campaigning within the Church to have the doctrine of “Papal Infallability” accepted into the Canon. He sought the support of France’s Napolean III. Napolean, worried over a century-long decline in French population, offered a deal. If the Pope would outlaw ALL abortions, Napoleon would support Papal Infallability. The deal was struck and Pius issued Apostolicae Sedis, calling for excommunication (the penalty for murder) for abortion at any stage of pregnancy.

Pius IX’s ruling was finally added to the Code of Canon Law in 1917, only 91 years ago.

So, ironically, Pelosi’s position is in agreement with Catholic and general Christian dogma for 95% of the existince of Christianity, while the idea of ensoulment at conception is a very recent change in the official dogma.

It is also ironic that so many people who feel so passionately that all abortion is, ipso facto, murder of an ensouled human, have no idea how recently this concept was adopted in Christianity. For most of its history, Pelosi’s view was much closer to the truth. The ignorance of most modern Christians to the history of their own theology continues to amaze and astound me.


82 posted on 08/25/2008 9:50:28 AM PDT by BlueSun ("When good does evil in its struggle against evil, it becomes indistinguishable from its enemy.”)
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To: BlueSun

and the link for your “history” is?


83 posted on 08/25/2008 10:01:15 AM PDT by kellynla (Freedom of speech makes it easier to spot the idiots! Semper Fi!)
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To: BlueSun
... So, ironically, Pelosi’s position is in agreement with Catholic and general Christian dogma for 95% of the existince of Christianity, while the idea of ensoulment at conception is a very recent change in the official dogma. ...

Summing it up- pelosi disagrees with current Catholic and general Christian dogma and is clutching onto anything in the past that would support murdering unborn children.

87 posted on 08/25/2008 10:20:41 AM PDT by new cruelty (don't believe the hype)
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To: BlueSun

Well, what about it, Newbie...
gotta a link for that “history” you posted...


89 posted on 08/25/2008 10:32:16 AM PDT by kellynla (Freedom of speech makes it easier to spot the idiots! Semper Fi!)
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To: BlueSun
The ignorance of most modern Christians to the history of their own theology continues to amaze and astound me.

How is this not anything but completely going off on a tangent???

If you want to discuss Christian theology in the context of history, post a thread on the Religion forum.

95 posted on 08/25/2008 11:07:06 AM PDT by grellis (By order of the Ingham County Sheriff this tag has been seized for nonpayment of taxes)
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