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To: BlueSun

Yea, well, Newbie, I suggest you bring your homework and be prepared to defend your posts when you come to a debate or don’t post.

Your “history” is inaccurate. And when you find your link to your “history”, let us know.

In the meantime, here is a link to what the earliest beliefs of the Church and even B.C. regarding abortion were.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01046b.htm


99 posted on 08/25/2008 11:14:05 AM PDT by kellynla (Freedom of speech makes it easier to spot the idiots! Semper Fi!)
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To: kellynla
My history is indeed accurate - research it yourself. I said in one post that there was great debate among individual Christian scholars all along. From the beginning there were scholars that you can quote selectively who argued passionately that the ovum was human from the moment of conception. You can find rafts of quotes among ancient theologians arguing all sides of the question.

However, that doesn't alter the fact that the official position of the Church from the beginning was taken from Aristotle's "delayed ensoulment."

Today, Chrisitan apologetics actively seeks to suppress the idea that theological 'verities' were not always as they are today. So, when you turn to contemporary religious works, you will often see only one side of the argument presented, as if that were the entire story.

St. Jerome originally said that people who render themselves sterile "are guilty of murdering a human being not yet conceived." A rather extreme view that might easily be extrapolated to say that any time a fertile woman refrains from intercourse during ovulation, she has murdered a human being not yet conceived. Oddly enough, e also wrote: "The seed gradually takes shape in the uterus, and it [abortion] does not count as killing until the individual elements have acquired their external appearance and their limbs" , so clearly he believed that inducing sterility was murder, yet early abortion was not.

St. Augustine said that a human soul could not live in an unformed body, and so only the termination of a more fully developed "fetus animatus" was actually murder.

Around 700 AD, Theodore assembled a penitential. The penance for abortion was set at 120 days. The penance for oral and anal sex, practicing coitus interruptus, or making yourself sterile carried a penance of from 7 years to life.

Innocent III, who was Pope in the late 12th and early 13th century wrote a decision in the case of a Carthusian monk who had arranged for his female lover to get an abortion. ruling that no homicide had been committed since the fetus was not 'animated.'

As I posted before, it was not until 1869 that Pius IX dropped the distinction between 'fetus animatus' and 'fetus inanimatus.' This became part of official Canon law in 1917 and was affirmed in 1983.

So, with all of the different opinions you can select to quote, the Church itself (except for 3 years in the 16th Century) officially accepted the position of delayed ensoulment, not ensoulment at conception, and this was reflected in the official penance for aborting a fetus.

And please stop with the infantile namecalling "Newbie." As Thomas Jefferson said, "Resort is had to ridicule only when reason is against us."

105 posted on 08/25/2008 12:42:24 PM PDT by BlueSun ("When good does evil in its struggle against evil, it becomes indistinguishable from its enemy.”)
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