Posted on 08/26/2008 7:27:02 AM PDT by WilliamReading
Catholic Archbishop Chaput, who was scheduled to lead a pro-life candlelight vigil Monday night here in front of Planned Parenthood, called Mr. Biden's support for abortion rights "seriously wrong," said archdiocese spokeswoman Jeanette De Melo.
"I certainly presume his good will and integrity," said the archbishop, "and I presume that his integrity will lead him to refrain from presenting himself for Communion if he supports a false 'right' to abortion."
The archbishop, who was not invited to speak at any convention events in what appeared to be a deliberate snub, told the Associated Press that he would like to speak privately with Mr. Biden.
The debate underscored what has emerged as a central theme of this year's convention: the tension between the Democratic Party's renewed outreach to religious voters and its long-standing support for unfettered access to abortion.
"The push for the Democratic Party is to have a new position on abortion," said Steve Waldman, editor of the religious Web site beliefnet.com. "When you look at Catholics and evangelicals, you see that they agree with 80 percent of what [Mr. Obama] says, but there's this stumbling block with abortion."
Whether pro-choice Catholics should take Communion became a major issue in 2004 during Democrat John Kerry's run for the presidency when more than a dozen bishops, including Archbishop Chaput, publicly asked the senator from Massachusetts not to present himself for the Eucharist.
Their stance may have given a boost to President Bush, who increased his share of the Catholic vote from 47 percent in 2000 to 52 percent in 2004.
"Now everywhere Biden campaigns, we'll have this question of whether a pro-abortion Catholic can receive Communion. ... Selecting a pro-abortion Catholic is a slap in the face to Catholic voters," said Fidelis President Brian Burch
(Excerpt) Read more at washingtontimes.com ...
I am not Catholic, so I don’t understand this. Each Archbishop has the choice whether to offer communion to a pro-choice Catholic?
In Denver , an “abortion rights” Catholic cannot take communion, but in San Francisco and Chicago you can?
They should not take it nor be given it. Period.
Yes... and no. Canon Law is pretty clear regarding this situation. However, a Bishop is the authority in his diocese and can choose to erroneously ignore the strictures.
For reference:
1] “Why should the Church deny the Eucharist to hundreds of ‘Catholic’ pro abortion politicians?”
Answer: The Catholic Church condemns abortion, euthanasia, sodomy, cloning, embryonic stem cell research, as well as other attacks against the sanctity of life and the family. It is the obligation of the bishop to follow canon law. Canon Law n.915 mandates the denial of Communion to all “manifest, obstinate, persistent sinners,” including but not exclusive to politicians.
Canon 915 not only protects the Eucharist from sacrilegious reception, but also prevents the faithful from sorrowful scandal.
It’s important to understand what ‘manifest, obstinate, persistent’ means. Many wrongly think it applies only to politicians. This is not so.
If a Catholic is a ‘manifest’ sinner, that means he is ‘known,’ or ‘public.’ This must be differentiated from the Catholics who are in the state of ‘private’ grave sin, to whom their sin is known only to themselves and God. The private grave sinner cannot be denied the Eucharist because their sin is unknown to the bishop, to his priests, and his ministers of the Eucharist.
If a Catholic is gravely ‘manifest’ and ‘obstinate’ in his sin, that means he pigheadedly continues to ‘persist’ or ‘stand firm’ in grave sin that is ‘public’ in nature and causes scandal to others. This is quite different from those who persist in ‘private’ sin.
‘Catholic’ pro-abortion politicians are certainly manifest, obstinate and persistent sinners and they are thus subject to the provisions of c.915.
Source: http://www.catholic.org/featured/headline.php?ID=989
The rules are pretty clear. Some bishops are men, and men of God, and enforce the rules. Others ...
"The floor of hell is paved with the skulls of bishops."
I am not Catholic, so I don’t understand this. Each Archbishop has the choice whether to offer communion to a pro-choice Catholic?
In Denver , an “abortion rights” Catholic cannot take communion, but in San Francisco and Chicago you can?
The rule of thumb on this matter is, you can't be Catholic if you are pro-abortion. People who are not Catholics should not be taking Communion. Biden has excommunicated himself from the RC Church for politically supporting abortion. Here's a couple of passages from the Catholic Catechism on the matter:
2272 Formal cooperation in an abortion constitutes a grave offense. The Church attaches the canonical penalty of excommunication to this crime against human life. "A person who procures a completed abortion incurs excommunication latae sententiae," "by the very commission of the offense," and subject to the conditions provided by Canon Law. The Church does not thereby intend to restrict the scope of mercy. Rather, she makes clear the gravity of the crime committed, the irreparable harm done to the innocent who is put to death, as well as to the parents and the whole of society.
2322 From its conception, the child has the right to life. Direct abortion, that is, abortion willed as an end or as a means, is a "criminal" practice (GS 27 § 3), gravely contrary to the moral law. The Church imposes the canonical penalty of excommunication for this crime against human life.
If Biden sincerely stops supporting abortion and repents for this mortal sin, he can start attending Mass and receiving Communion.
Sadly, we’re all over the map. “Father” Pfleger would probably perform an abortion and then say Mass.
“Bishops are answerable to the Pope, not to one another.”
So this leads me to believe that the Pope and the Vatican is taking a “hands off” position on whether refusing communion to pro-choice politicians should be enforced or not.
(called Mr. Biden’s support for abortion rights “seriously wrong,” said archdiocese spokeswoman Jeanette De Melo. “I certainly presume his good will and integrity,” said the archbishop, )
Ah, well I see here, where the Archbisop has gone wrong. He presumes goodwill and integrity in a POLITICIAN.
I believe Mr. Waldman is wrong. I don't agree with anything Obama says, and almost everyone in my extended family is Christian, Catholic, Baptist, etc, and none of the ones with whom I've spoken agree with Obama about the issues, either. Abortion is just one of the those issues, albeit, the most important one.
That being said, I'm glad the Bishops are speaking out on this, since the Democrats are doing their Election year 'religion dance', trying to bambooze the average Catholic into thinking that abortion is just one of many issues on which to decide one's vote, and their decision shouldn't be made on the basis of that one issue.
“So this leads me to believe that the Pope and the Vatican is taking a “hands off” position on whether refusing communion to pro-choice politicians should be enforced or not.”
hmmm...not exactly.
The pope is not a micromanager.
He encourages bishops to do their job in their own territory.
Over recent years Rome has attempted to clarify this rule and make it more forceful - less likely to be misinterpetated.
Stubborn bishops who refuse to take the hint get “dealt” with differently according to their situation.
Many of these guys are approaching their 75th birthday where they are required to submit their resignation for the pope’s approval.
Some bishops have been moved around, or have been assigned a co-bishop (not the formal name - but same idea)
It is the last resort to publicly shame a bishop, and the church always reacts slowly.
lol!
make that misinterpreted.
“The pope is not a micromanager.”
The CEO of McDonald’s is also not a micromanager, but you will notice how all the McDonals serve the same food, at the same quality, and in a clean environment.
“The CEO of McDonald’s is also not a micromanager, but you will notice how all the McDonals serve the same food, at the same quality, and in a clean environment.”
really don’t see how this applies to dealing with millions of catholics.
Any catholic can walk into any mass around the world and will hear the same scriptures being read that day, the same psalm - a homily based on the gospel reading, and the same eucharistic sacrifice being offered.
Catholics are expected to respect the eucharist enough to not present themselves for communion when they know they should not.
What we have are a class of people who obviously do not believe in catholic teaching of the eucharist, or they would not be so careless.
So the church is faced with balancing the issue of reaching out to these people to convince them of their responsibility.
It is going to be very difficult for the church to track these people’s whereabouts week to week.
The bishops can order their priests to deny them communion - but that is assuming all the priests (many of them elderly) are going to be on top of their game and recognize these people prior to offering them the host.
The primary burden rests with the offenders themselves.
The message has now gone out - they have been publicly rebuked.
Let’s see if they listen.
They can still attend mass, but they should not get up for communion.
What if a politician supports capital punishment? My understanding is that the Church is against capital punishment.
Is that enforced in any way?
that is not “as” absolute as the teaching on abortion.
For years it was considered acceptable as a safeguard against furthr killing of the innocent.
What the church basically has said is that now most of our countries have advanced enough to be able to contain these criminals without having to kill them.
However, the Church has also recognized exceptions can be made regarding those extreme persons who still represent a physical threat even in prison - to guards and to fellow inmates.
So there is room for debate regarding this teaching and it is not given the same weight as the teaching regarding the killing of innocent unborn children.
Thank you for the explanation.
You are correct. He has already made a clear public pronouncement as Prefect of the Apostolic Signatura here.
no sweat.
In the end - all these people have complete freedom to march into whatever church they choose.
These cinos obviously don’t believe in church teaching regarding the eucharist.
There are other churches with different beliefs regarding communion that would suit them better.
The Church is never going to change just to appease Biden or Pelosi.
But the cinos want the “catholic vote” so they continue to refer themselves as “catholic” when they aren’t.
Cokie Roberts just came out with a ridiculously shallow book revealing the same problem “oh whoa is me! I’m a catholic but I thing the Church is archaic, paternalistic, and mean!”
The Archbishops must follow the guidelines of the church which go along with the Commandments — Thou shalt not kill, and the belief that life begins at conception.
I have posted the official Catholic teaching from the Catechism of the Catholic Church many times. Evidently you have not seen it.
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Not Romanist here either, but I find it deeply sad that all these bishops ever do to these claiming-proud-to-be-Catholic politcians—WHO ARE THE LEADING POLITICAL PROPONENTS OF ABORTION IN AMERICA—is “scold.”
Telling a fake Christian he “better not take Communion!” is like telling a philanderer that he better not kiss his wife.
The selective enforcement by the Bishops is what I find distressing.
Actually they don’t even report to the Pope, in the manner in which you probably imagine. A bishop is absolute ruler within his bishopric. The pope can’t just tell a bishop to do something, or not to do something, and then be able to enforce it. The pope is “first among equals’ among the bishops.
Now, the pope has a lot of power. If that bishop wants to ever have any hope of a more prestigious diocese, or to have influence in getting his guys appointed bishop, or any number of other things that the pope can dispense, he has to at least pretend to do as Papa requires. And the longer the Pope is in power the more of “his guys” get appointed giving him more power. Indeed, the Pope shapes the church after he is gone because so many of the men voting for the next pope are appointed by him.
“I certainly presume his good will and integrity,” said the archbishop, “and I presume that his integrity will lead him to refrain from presenting himself for Communion if he supports a false ‘right’ to abortion.”
The archbishop, who was not invited to speak at any convention events in what appeared to be a deliberate snub, told the Associated Press that he would like to speak privately with Mr. Biden.
&&&
Go get ‘im, Archbishop!
Great news! Thanks for the ping.
Canon 1398 is clear: "A person who actually procures an abortion incurs an automatic excommunication," the canon states. Abortion is intrinsically evil as an act, and the Catechism of the Catholic Church rightly teaches in paragraph 2271 that abortion "is gravely contrary to the moral law" and an "abominable crime."
With regard to those who perform, promote, fund, or are accessories to the practice of abortion, the second paragraph of Canon 1329 already provides for their automatic excommunication as accomplices who, "without their assistance, the crime would not have been committed ..."
It is clear to me that a man or woman who holds political power, who either legalizes of "enables" abortion, especially one who votes against restricting it, or votes in favor of funding it, qualifies as an accomplice and thus comes under canonical excommunication.
All that is needed, is that Catholics in large numbers start acting like Catholics. What a cause for rejoicing that would be!
(Please allow me a seven-syllable sigh.......) Not exactly.
The question would be, what kind of enforcement is necessary and possible? The Church is obviously a voluntary organization. It has no secular enforcement arm; and even where penalties are incurred, the penalties are spiritual or ecclesiastical, not such things as fines, imprisonment, being put in the stocks for public derision (though some of that strikes me as being increasingly appropriate...)
In the organizational sense, every bishop is supposed to take care of his own diocese. He can't be voted out, nor can the Pope just "fire" him.
I would love to see some full-fledged, dramatic, public, Bell, Book and Candle excommunications. (Of course, I'm one who considers the penitent Emperor Henry IV falling to his knees before Gregory VII in the snow of Canossa (1077) as one of the high points of European history.)
But I'm afaid it would just strike most of the general public as "too medieval" and garner for the offenders an undeserved glory as "Noble Rebels Against Popish Oppression."
Know what I mean?
Nevertheless, with good-guy Raymond Burke heading the canonical court in Rome, and good-guy Benedict approving, you will see more and stronger action in coming months, I'm sure. It's up to us Christifideles Laici --- Christ's Faithful People ---to keep on prayin' ...and keep on pushin'...
In the organizational sense, every bishop is supposed to take care of his own diocese. He can’t be voted out, nor can the Pope just “fire” him.
A bishop can’t be fired? And are not Priests “employees” of the Catholic Church?
There are options, though. A bishop can have his authority curtailed, as Seattle Archbishop Raymond Hunthausen's was, back in the 1980's, when the Pope appointed an auxiliary bishop for him who basically took over most of his job. Or he could be reassigned to someplace where he can't get into trouble, as when the wacky Emmanuel Milingo, Archbishop of Lusaka (Zambia) was appointed to be in charge of "Pastoral Care of Migrants and Itinerant Peoples" (in Rome) where he would be under the watchful eye of other senior clerics.
It's not simple. But watch. More will be happening.
Some are even predicting a schism, and the emergence of an apostate American Catholic Church. Schism is never a good thing, but in some ways we have an internal, undercover schism going on right now, with "defectors in place" --- I'm speaking of laypeople, theologians, nuns, priests and bishops --- who are in quiet mutiny against the Church and who may be pushed to the point of openly splitting.
This would be awful, but even strong medicine is sometimes therapuetic.
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