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Denver Archbishop scolds pro-choice Biden
Washington Times ^

Posted on 08/26/2008 7:27:02 AM PDT by WilliamReading

Catholic Archbishop Chaput, who was scheduled to lead a pro-life candlelight vigil Monday night here in front of Planned Parenthood, called Mr. Biden's support for abortion rights "seriously wrong," said archdiocese spokeswoman Jeanette De Melo.

"I certainly presume his good will and integrity," said the archbishop, "and I presume that his integrity will lead him to refrain from presenting himself for Communion if he supports a false 'right' to abortion."

The archbishop, who was not invited to speak at any convention events in what appeared to be a deliberate snub, told the Associated Press that he would like to speak privately with Mr. Biden.

The debate underscored what has emerged as a central theme of this year's convention: the tension between the Democratic Party's renewed outreach to religious voters and its long-standing support for unfettered access to abortion.

"The push for the Democratic Party is to have a new position on abortion," said Steve Waldman, editor of the religious Web site beliefnet.com. "When you look at Catholics and evangelicals, you see that they agree with 80 percent of what [Mr. Obama] says, but there's this stumbling block with abortion."

Whether pro-choice Catholics should take Communion became a major issue in 2004 during Democrat John Kerry's run for the presidency when more than a dozen bishops, including Archbishop Chaput, publicly asked the senator from Massachusetts not to present himself for the Eucharist.

Their stance may have given a boost to President Bush, who increased his share of the Catholic vote from 47 percent in 2000 to 52 percent in 2004.

"Now everywhere Biden campaigns, we'll have this question of whether a pro-abortion Catholic can receive Communion. ... Selecting a pro-abortion Catholic is a slap in the face to Catholic voters," said Fidelis President Brian Burch

(Excerpt) Read more at washingtontimes.com ...


TOPICS: News/Current Events; US: Delaware
KEYWORDS: 2008dncconvention; abortion; biden; catholic; catholicpoliticians; elections; prolife

1 posted on 08/26/2008 7:27:02 AM PDT by WilliamReading
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To: WilliamReading

I am not Catholic, so I don’t understand this. Each Archbishop has the choice whether to offer communion to a pro-choice Catholic?

In Denver , an “abortion rights” Catholic cannot take communion, but in San Francisco and Chicago you can?


2 posted on 08/26/2008 7:29:37 AM PDT by WilliamReading
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To: WilliamReading

They should not take it nor be given it. Period.


3 posted on 08/26/2008 7:35:13 AM PDT by Bigoleelephant (Lawyers are to America what lead was to Rome.)
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To: WilliamReading
I am not Catholic, so I don’t understand this. Each Archbishop has the choice whether to offer communion to a pro-choice Catholic?

Yes... and no. Canon Law is pretty clear regarding this situation. However, a Bishop is the authority in his diocese and can choose to erroneously ignore the strictures.

For reference:

1] “Why should the Church deny the Eucharist to hundreds of ‘Catholic’ pro abortion politicians?”

Answer: The Catholic Church condemns abortion, euthanasia, sodomy, cloning, embryonic stem cell research, as well as other attacks against the sanctity of life and the family. It is the obligation of the bishop to follow canon law. Canon Law n.915 mandates the denial of Communion to all “manifest, obstinate, persistent sinners,” including but not exclusive to politicians.

Canon 915 not only protects the Eucharist from sacrilegious reception, but also prevents the faithful from sorrowful scandal.

It’s important to understand what ‘manifest, obstinate, persistent’ means. Many wrongly think it applies only to politicians. This is not so.

If a Catholic is a ‘manifest’ sinner, that means he is ‘known,’ or ‘public.’ This must be differentiated from the Catholics who are in the state of ‘private’ grave sin, to whom their sin is known only to themselves and God. The private grave sinner cannot be denied the Eucharist because their sin is unknown to the bishop, to his priests, and his ministers of the Eucharist.

If a Catholic is gravely ‘manifest’ and ‘obstinate’ in his sin, that means he pigheadedly continues to ‘persist’ or ‘stand firm’ in grave sin that is ‘public’ in nature and causes scandal to others. This is quite different from those who persist in ‘private’ sin.

‘Catholic’ pro-abortion politicians are certainly manifest, obstinate and persistent sinners and they are thus subject to the provisions of c.915.

Source: http://www.catholic.org/featured/headline.php?ID=989

4 posted on 08/26/2008 7:41:39 AM PDT by pgyanke (Public "servants" have decided it's their job to use the public's money to fight the public)
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To: WilliamReading
Each Archbishop has the choice whether to offer communion to a pro-choice Catholic?

The rules are pretty clear. Some bishops are men, and men of God, and enforce the rules. Others ...

5 posted on 08/26/2008 7:43:38 AM PDT by Campion
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To: WilliamReading
A Bishop has authority only over what takes place in his own diocese. Bishops are answerable to the Pope, not to one another. The cowardice that you are seeing exhibited today by some Bishops who allow the mockery of the Eucharist by the Pelosi's, Kerry's and Biden's of the world serves to reaffirm what St. Athanasius wrote so many centuries ago:

"The floor of hell is paved with the skulls of bishops."

6 posted on 08/26/2008 7:45:00 AM PDT by A.A. Cunningham
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To: WilliamReading
WilliamReading asked:

I am not Catholic, so I don’t understand this. Each Archbishop has the choice whether to offer communion to a pro-choice Catholic?

In Denver , an “abortion rights” Catholic cannot take communion, but in San Francisco and Chicago you can?

The rule of thumb on this matter is, you can't be Catholic if you are pro-abortion. People who are not Catholics should not be taking Communion. Biden has excommunicated himself from the RC Church for politically supporting abortion. Here's a couple of passages from the Catholic Catechism on the matter:

2272 Formal cooperation in an abortion constitutes a grave offense. The Church attaches the canonical penalty of excommunication to this crime against human life. "A person who procures a completed abortion incurs excommunication latae sententiae," "by the very commission of the offense," and subject to the conditions provided by Canon Law. The Church does not thereby intend to restrict the scope of mercy. Rather, she makes clear the gravity of the crime committed, the irreparable harm done to the innocent who is put to death, as well as to the parents and the whole of society.

2322 From its conception, the child has the right to life. Direct abortion, that is, abortion willed as an end or as a means, is a "criminal" practice (GS 27 § 3), gravely contrary to the moral law. The Church imposes the canonical penalty of excommunication for this crime against human life.

If Biden sincerely stops supporting abortion and repents for this mortal sin, he can start attending Mass and receiving Communion.

7 posted on 08/26/2008 7:50:24 AM PDT by rochester_veteran ( http://RochesterConservative.com)
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To: WilliamReading

Sadly, we’re all over the map. “Father” Pfleger would probably perform an abortion and then say Mass.


8 posted on 08/26/2008 7:53:25 AM PDT by Travis McGee (--- www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com ---)
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To: A.A. Cunningham

“Bishops are answerable to the Pope, not to one another.”

So this leads me to believe that the Pope and the Vatican is taking a “hands off” position on whether refusing communion to pro-choice politicians should be enforced or not.


9 posted on 08/26/2008 7:59:04 AM PDT by WilliamReading
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To: WilliamReading

(called Mr. Biden’s support for abortion rights “seriously wrong,” said archdiocese spokeswoman Jeanette De Melo. “I certainly presume his good will and integrity,” said the archbishop, )

Ah, well I see here, where the Archbisop has gone wrong. He presumes goodwill and integrity in a POLITICIAN.


10 posted on 08/26/2008 8:07:15 AM PDT by SECURE AMERICA (Got Freedom ? Thank a Veteran...... Want to keep Freedom? Don't vote Obama)
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To: WilliamReading
"The push for the Democratic Party is to have a new position on abortion," said Steve Waldman, editor of the religious Web site beliefnet.com. "When you look at Catholics and evangelicals, you see that they agree with 80 percent of what [Mr. Obama] says, but there's this stumbling block with abortion."

I believe Mr. Waldman is wrong. I don't agree with anything Obama says, and almost everyone in my extended family is Christian, Catholic, Baptist, etc, and none of the ones with whom I've spoken agree with Obama about the issues, either. Abortion is just one of the those issues, albeit, the most important one.

11 posted on 08/26/2008 8:09:04 AM PDT by SuziQ
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To: WilliamReading
People who support abortion present themselves for Communion all the time. It is regrettable, but most giving Communion have no idea about the views of others, unless they've made them public, as many politicians have. But even then, there are people who may not recognize a politician, and will give him or her Communion, unbeknownst. Either way, those who receive Holy Communion who should not be receiving will not only NOT receive the graces that flow from the Sacrament, they will be continuing to condemn their own souls, whether any Bishop makes a proclamation or not.

That being said, I'm glad the Bishops are speaking out on this, since the Democrats are doing their Election year 'religion dance', trying to bambooze the average Catholic into thinking that abortion is just one of many issues on which to decide one's vote, and their decision shouldn't be made on the basis of that one issue.

12 posted on 08/26/2008 8:15:10 AM PDT by SuziQ
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To: WilliamReading
No they aren't. Raymond Burke, the former Archbishop of St. Louis, is now the prefect of the Apostolic Signatura; in effect the Supreme Court of the Church, at the Vatican, has been very outspoken on the issue of Canon 915 as has Pope Benedict XVI. Bishops, like all sinners, are given several opportunities to exercise free will and amend their lives and return to the straight and narrow path and preach the truth. Now that Burke is in Rome I expect that the heat will be turned up, albeit slowly, on those Bishops who talk the talk, and those that don't, but don't walk the walk regarding Catholic teaching and pro-infanticide politicians who mock the Eucharist.
13 posted on 08/26/2008 8:18:56 AM PDT by A.A. Cunningham
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To: WilliamReading

“So this leads me to believe that the Pope and the Vatican is taking a “hands off” position on whether refusing communion to pro-choice politicians should be enforced or not.”

hmmm...not exactly.
The pope is not a micromanager.
He encourages bishops to do their job in their own territory.
Over recent years Rome has attempted to clarify this rule and make it more forceful - less likely to be misinterpetated.

Stubborn bishops who refuse to take the hint get “dealt” with differently according to their situation.
Many of these guys are approaching their 75th birthday where they are required to submit their resignation for the pope’s approval.

Some bishops have been moved around, or have been assigned a co-bishop (not the formal name - but same idea)

It is the last resort to publicly shame a bishop, and the church always reacts slowly.


14 posted on 08/26/2008 8:26:40 AM PDT by Scotswife
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To: Scotswife

lol!
make that misinterpreted.


15 posted on 08/26/2008 8:28:56 AM PDT by Scotswife
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To: Scotswife

“The pope is not a micromanager.”

The CEO of McDonald’s is also not a micromanager, but you will notice how all the McDonals serve the same food, at the same quality, and in a clean environment.


16 posted on 08/26/2008 8:44:55 AM PDT by WilliamReading
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To: WilliamReading

“The CEO of McDonald’s is also not a micromanager, but you will notice how all the McDonals serve the same food, at the same quality, and in a clean environment.”

really don’t see how this applies to dealing with millions of catholics.

Any catholic can walk into any mass around the world and will hear the same scriptures being read that day, the same psalm - a homily based on the gospel reading, and the same eucharistic sacrifice being offered.

Catholics are expected to respect the eucharist enough to not present themselves for communion when they know they should not.
What we have are a class of people who obviously do not believe in catholic teaching of the eucharist, or they would not be so careless.

So the church is faced with balancing the issue of reaching out to these people to convince them of their responsibility.

It is going to be very difficult for the church to track these people’s whereabouts week to week.

The bishops can order their priests to deny them communion - but that is assuming all the priests (many of them elderly) are going to be on top of their game and recognize these people prior to offering them the host.

The primary burden rests with the offenders themselves.
The message has now gone out - they have been publicly rebuked.
Let’s see if they listen.
They can still attend mass, but they should not get up for communion.


17 posted on 08/26/2008 9:01:57 AM PDT by Scotswife
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To: Scotswife

What if a politician supports capital punishment? My understanding is that the Church is against capital punishment.

Is that enforced in any way?


18 posted on 08/26/2008 9:09:32 AM PDT by WilliamReading
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To: WilliamReading

that is not “as” absolute as the teaching on abortion.

For years it was considered acceptable as a safeguard against furthr killing of the innocent.

What the church basically has said is that now most of our countries have advanced enough to be able to contain these criminals without having to kill them.

However, the Church has also recognized exceptions can be made regarding those extreme persons who still represent a physical threat even in prison - to guards and to fellow inmates.

So there is room for debate regarding this teaching and it is not given the same weight as the teaching regarding the killing of innocent unborn children.


19 posted on 08/26/2008 9:16:10 AM PDT by Scotswife
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To: Scotswife

Thank you for the explanation.


20 posted on 08/26/2008 9:59:36 AM PDT by WilliamReading
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To: A.A. Cunningham
Now that Burke is in Rome I expect that the heat will be turned up...

You are correct. He has already made a clear public pronouncement as Prefect of the Apostolic Signatura here.

21 posted on 08/26/2008 10:48:22 AM PDT by Servant of the Cross (the Truth will set you free)
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To: WilliamReading

no sweat.

In the end - all these people have complete freedom to march into whatever church they choose.

These cinos obviously don’t believe in church teaching regarding the eucharist.
There are other churches with different beliefs regarding communion that would suit them better.
The Church is never going to change just to appease Biden or Pelosi.
But the cinos want the “catholic vote” so they continue to refer themselves as “catholic” when they aren’t.

Cokie Roberts just came out with a ridiculously shallow book revealing the same problem “oh whoa is me! I’m a catholic but I thing the Church is archaic, paternalistic, and mean!”


22 posted on 08/26/2008 10:55:46 AM PDT by Scotswife
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To: WilliamReading

The Archbishops must follow the guidelines of the church which go along with the Commandments — Thou shalt not kill, and the belief that life begins at conception.

I have posted the official Catholic teaching from the Catechism of the Catholic Church many times. Evidently you have not seen it.


23 posted on 08/26/2008 5:31:41 PM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: wagglebee; narses; NYer; Pyro7480; Coleus

ping for your lists


24 posted on 08/26/2008 5:37:13 PM PDT by markomalley (Extra ecclesiam nulla salus)
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To: markomalley; informavoracious; larose; RJR_fan; Prospero; Conservative Vermont Vet; ...
+

Freep-mail me to get on or off my pro-life and Catholic List:

Add me / Remove me

Please ping me to note-worthy Pro-Life or Catholic threads, or other threads of interest.

25 posted on 08/26/2008 5:39:26 PM PDT by narses (...the spirit of Trent is abroad once more.)
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To: Siobhan; Canticle_of_Deborah; NYer; Salvation; american colleen; Desdemona; StAthanasiustheGreat; ..

Catholic ping!


26 posted on 08/26/2008 5:39:28 PM PDT by Pyro7480 ("If the angels could be jealous of men, they would be so for one reason: Holy Communion." -M. Kolbe)
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To: markomalley; informavoracious; larose; RJR_fan; Prospero; Conservative Vermont Vet; ...
+

Freep-mail me to get on or off my pro-life and Catholic List:

Add me / Remove me

Please ping me to note-worthy Pro-Life or Catholic threads, or other threads of interest.

27 posted on 08/26/2008 5:39:44 PM PDT by narses (...the spirit of Trent is abroad once more.)
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To: WilliamReading

Not Romanist here either, but I find it deeply sad that all these bishops ever do to these claiming-proud-to-be-Catholic politcians—WHO ARE THE LEADING POLITICAL PROPONENTS OF ABORTION IN AMERICA—is “scold.”

Telling a fake Christian he “better not take Communion!” is like telling a philanderer that he better not kiss his wife.


28 posted on 08/26/2008 9:42:08 PM PDT by AnalogReigns
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To: AnalogReigns

The selective enforcement by the Bishops is what I find distressing.


29 posted on 08/26/2008 10:51:09 PM PDT by WilliamReading
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To: WilliamReading

Actually they don’t even report to the Pope, in the manner in which you probably imagine. A bishop is absolute ruler within his bishopric. The pope can’t just tell a bishop to do something, or not to do something, and then be able to enforce it. The pope is “first among equals’ among the bishops.

Now, the pope has a lot of power. If that bishop wants to ever have any hope of a more prestigious diocese, or to have influence in getting his guys appointed bishop, or any number of other things that the pope can dispense, he has to at least pretend to do as Papa requires. And the longer the Pope is in power the more of “his guys” get appointed giving him more power. Indeed, the Pope shapes the church after he is gone because so many of the men voting for the next pope are appointed by him.


30 posted on 08/27/2008 8:05:48 AM PDT by ichabod1 (It's all fun and games until Russia starts invading Eastern Europe (pete))
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To: WilliamReading

“I certainly presume his good will and integrity,” said the archbishop, “and I presume that his integrity will lead him to refrain from presenting himself for Communion if he supports a false ‘right’ to abortion.”

The archbishop, who was not invited to speak at any convention events in what appeared to be a deliberate snub, told the Associated Press that he would like to speak privately with Mr. Biden.

&&&
Go get ‘im, Archbishop!


31 posted on 08/27/2008 9:07:32 AM PDT by Bigg Red
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To: Pyro7480

Great news! Thanks for the ping.


32 posted on 08/27/2008 9:08:17 AM PDT by Bigg Red
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To: WilliamReading
Your confusion is understandable. To me, it is as clear as daylight that the vacillating bishops who are in violation of Canon Law. In other words. the Church (via the Catechism and the Canon Law) is right, and compromising/vacillating bishops are wrong.

Canon 1398 is clear: "A person who actually procures an abortion incurs an automatic excommunication," the canon states. Abortion is intrinsically evil as an act, and the Catechism of the Catholic Church rightly teaches in paragraph 2271 that abortion "is gravely contrary to the moral law" and an "abominable crime."

With regard to those who perform, promote, fund, or are accessories to the practice of abortion, the second paragraph of Canon 1329 already provides for their automatic excommunication as accomplices who, "without their assistance, the crime would not have been committed ..."

It is clear to me that a man or woman who holds political power, who either legalizes of "enables" abortion, especially one who votes against restricting it, or votes in favor of funding it, qualifies as an accomplice and thus comes under canonical excommunication.

All that is needed, is that Catholics in large numbers start acting like Catholics. What a cause for rejoicing that would be!

33 posted on 08/27/2008 10:03:35 AM PDT by Mrs. Don-o ("In Christ we who are many form one body, and each member belongs to all the others." Romans 12:5)
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To: WilliamReading
"So this leads me to believe that the Pope and the Vatican is taking a “hands off” position ...

(Please allow me a seven-syllable sigh.......) Not exactly.

The question would be, what kind of enforcement is necessary and possible? The Church is obviously a voluntary organization. It has no secular enforcement arm; and even where penalties are incurred, the penalties are spiritual or ecclesiastical, not such things as fines, imprisonment, being put in the stocks for public derision (though some of that strikes me as being increasingly appropriate...)

In the organizational sense, every bishop is supposed to take care of his own diocese. He can't be voted out, nor can the Pope just "fire" him.

I would love to see some full-fledged, dramatic, public, Bell, Book and Candle excommunications. (Of course, I'm one who considers the penitent Emperor Henry IV falling to his knees before Gregory VII in the snow of Canossa (1077) as one of the high points of European history.)

But I'm afaid it would just strike most of the general public as "too medieval" and garner for the offenders an undeserved glory as "Noble Rebels Against Popish Oppression."

Know what I mean?

Nevertheless, with good-guy Raymond Burke heading the canonical court in Rome, and good-guy Benedict approving, you will see more and stronger action in coming months, I'm sure. It's up to us Christifideles Laici --- Christ's Faithful People ---to keep on prayin' ...and keep on pushin'...

34 posted on 08/27/2008 10:29:12 AM PDT by Mrs. Don-o ("In Christ we who are many form one body, and each member belongs to all the others." Romans 12:5)
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To: Mrs. Don-o

In the organizational sense, every bishop is supposed to take care of his own diocese. He can’t be voted out, nor can the Pope just “fire” him.

A bishop can’t be fired? And are not Priests “employees” of the Catholic Church?


35 posted on 08/27/2008 11:31:24 AM PDT by WilliamReading
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To: WilliamReading
Well, no. A pope can't just fire a bishop. A bishop is not exactly an employee of the Pope or the Vatican or any such entity (legally) and there is even (legal) controversy over whether a priest is an employee of his bishop, or of his diocese, or whether he is a kind of independent contractor. (Strange but true. I'm speaking of civil law here, and I can't even begin to understand the legalities.)

There are options, though. A bishop can have his authority curtailed, as Seattle Archbishop Raymond Hunthausen's was, back in the 1980's, when the Pope appointed an auxiliary bishop for him who basically took over most of his job. Or he could be reassigned to someplace where he can't get into trouble, as when the wacky Emmanuel Milingo, Archbishop of Lusaka (Zambia) was appointed to be in charge of "Pastoral Care of Migrants and Itinerant Peoples" (in Rome) where he would be under the watchful eye of other senior clerics.

It's not simple. But watch. More will be happening.

Some are even predicting a schism, and the emergence of an apostate American Catholic Church. Schism is never a good thing, but in some ways we have an internal, undercover schism going on right now, with "defectors in place" --- I'm speaking of laypeople, theologians, nuns, priests and bishops --- who are in quiet mutiny against the Church and who may be pushed to the point of openly splitting.

This would be awful, but even strong medicine is sometimes therapuetic.

36 posted on 08/27/2008 11:51:53 AM PDT by Mrs. Don-o ("No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session." Mark Twain, 1866)
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