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Pushing Russia Into the Cold [Borscht Alert]
Human Events ^ | August 26, 2008 | Patrick J. Buchanan

Posted on 08/26/2008 6:04:13 PM PDT by 1rudeboy

A year after taking power, in June 1934, Adolf Hitler made his first visit abroad -- to his idol Benito Mussolini in Venice.

Babbling on incessantly about "Mein Kampf "and the Negroid strain in Mediterranean peoples, the Fuhrer made a dismal impression.

"What a clown this Hitler is," Mussolini told an aide.

Two weeks later, Hitler executed the Roehm purge and murdered scores of old Stormtrooper comrades. In late July, Austrian Nazis, attempting a coup, assassinated Chancellor Engelbert Dollfuss, a friend of Mussolini whose wife and child were then his guests.

Il Duce ordered four divisions to the Brenner Pass and flew to Vienna to vent his rage and disgust with Hitler. He called a summit at Stresa with Britain and France to agree on military action should Hitler make any new move in violation of Versailles.

At the time, however, Il Duce was also plotting revenge on Abyssinia for a bloody border clash with Italian Somaliland.

Mussolini thought his Allies would understand if he invaded the Ogaden to add an African colony to his new Roman Empire, just as the British and French had so often done in previous decades.

Mussolini miscalculated. Morally outraged, Britain and France went before the League of Nations and had sanctions imposed on Italy that were too weak to defeat her but punitive enough to insult her.

Friendless, isolated and condemned as an aggressor by Europe, Italy and Mussolini had nowhere to turn now but Hitler's Germany.

Thus, over the fate of an Abyssinian slave empire, Britain drove her faithful World War I ally into the arms of a Nazi dictator Mussolini loathed and had wished to confront beside Britain. And Abyssinia was overrun.

Are we making the same mistake in the Caucasus?

Mikheil Saakashvili started this war with his barrage attack and occupation of South Ossetia. Russia's war of retribution was far less violent or excessive than the U.S. bombing of Serbia for 78 days over Kosovo, or our unprovoked war on Saddam Hussein's Iraq, which has brought death to scores of thousands, or Israel's 35 days of bombing of Lebanon for a border skirmish with Hezbollah.

Yet, declared John McCain of Russia, "In the 21st century, nations don't invade other nations." Even Dick Cheney must have guffawed.

Russia must get out now, adds Bush, for South Ossetia and Abkhazia belong to a sovereign Georgia. But when did Bush demand that Israel get off the Golan Heights or withdraw from the birthplace of Jesus, which Israelis have occupied for 41 years, as he demands that Russia get out of the birthplace of Joseph Stalin, which Russia has occupied for two weeks?

As Israel was provoked in 1967, so, too, was Russia provoked.

Russians died in Saakashvili's attack, as American died in Pancho Villa's raid on New Mexico in 1916. We sent "Black Jack" Pershing, future Gen. George Patton and a U.S. army 300 miles into Mexico to kill Villa. Was this proportionate?

If we proceed on a course of isolating Russia from the West, keeping her out of the World Trade Organization, throwing her out of the G-8 and ending cooperation with NATO, where do we think Russia will go? Where did Il Duce go, when he was excommunicated from the West?

Condi Rice compares Vladimir Putin's action in Georgia to Leonid Brezhnev's crushing of the Prague Spring in 1968. She raced to Warsaw to ink a deal to put 10 anti-missile missiles and U.S. Patriot missiles manned by Americans into Poland.

Does the Stanford provost have any idea where the end of this road lies, upon which she and Bush have started the United States?

What do we do if Russia responds to our Patriots in Poland with the Russian S-300 anti-aircraft system in Iran and Syria?

If the United States intends to bring Georgia and Ukraine into NATO and arm them to fight Russia, why should Russia not dissolve the Treaty on Conventional Forces in Europe and move her tank armies into Belarus and up to the borders of Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania?

Would we send U.S. troops into the Baltic republics to signal that we will fight Russia to honor our NATO war guarantees? Which NATO allies would fight alongside us against a nuclear-armed Russia?

If we bring Ukraine into NATO, what do we do if Russified east Ukraine secedes and Russia sends troops to back the rebels? Do we send warships into Russia's bathtub, the Black Sea, and commit to fight as long as it takes to restore Ukraine's territorial integrity?

In March 1939, Britain pledged to declare war and fight Germany to the death to guarantee the sovereignty and territorial integrity of Poland. How did that one turn out for Britain and Poland?

Before we start down the road of isolating and encircling Russia with weak NATO allies, let us think through Gen. Petraeus' question in 2003 about Iraq, "Tell me, how does this thing end?"

But, then, these folks never seem to think anything through.


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Editorial; Foreign Affairs; Russia
KEYWORDS: geopolitics; history; lordhawhaw
Ride from the sound of the guns, Pat.
1 posted on 08/26/2008 6:04:13 PM PDT by 1rudeboy
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To: 1rudeboy

pat is a nutcase


2 posted on 08/26/2008 6:07:08 PM PDT by Repeal The 17th
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To: 1rudeboy

Unfortunately isolationism for the US isn’t in the cards, so we have to counter Russia or run up the white flag. In other words, use it or lose it. (Power, that is.)


3 posted on 08/26/2008 6:08:11 PM PDT by hershey
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To: 1rudeboy

What if Russia puts tanks on the border of Estonia? What if Russia rolls on Estonia, what will happen then?

I’ll tell you exactly what will happen. Buchanan will publish an op-ed defending it. Thats what will happen.


4 posted on 08/26/2008 6:11:06 PM PDT by marron
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To: 1rudeboy

He asks all the right questions but comes to all the wrong conclusions.


5 posted on 08/26/2008 6:12:02 PM PDT by DrGunsforHands
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To: 1rudeboy
If we proceed on a course of isolating Russia from the West, keeping her out of the World Trade Organization, throwing her out of the G-8 and ending cooperation with NATO, where do we think Russia will go?

Right where they are, and then some.

6 posted on 08/26/2008 6:12:44 PM PDT by Smokin' Joe (How often God must weep at humans' folly.)
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To: 1rudeboy
or our unprovoked war on Saddam Hussein's Iraq,

Stopped reading after that.

Why post crap like this?

Useless waste of bandwidth, you give legs to the POS author's intent.......

It's crap, nothing more.

7 posted on 08/26/2008 6:15:33 PM PDT by LasVegasMac (Islam: Bringing the world death and destruction for 1400 years!)
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To: 1rudeboy
"Would we send U.S. troops into the Baltic republics to signal that we will fight Russia to honor our NATO war guarantees? Which NATO allies would fight alongside us against a nuclear-armed Russia?"

"If we bring Ukraine into NATO, what do we do if Russified east Ukraine secedes and Russia sends troops to back the rebels? Do we send warships into Russia's bathtub, the Black Sea, and commit to fight as long as it takes to restore Ukraine's territorial integrity?"


8 posted on 08/26/2008 6:16:02 PM PDT by KantianBurke (President Bush, why did you abandon Specialist Ahmed Qusai al-Taei?)
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To: 1rudeboy
I seem to remember that Italy started out as an ally of Imperial Germany in 1914, but then switched sides after the British, French, and Russians offered Italian Prime Minister Antonio Salandra large territorial concessions in the Balkans out of Austria-Hungary's corpse once the war was over. In 1917, Lenin revealed the secret deal to embarrass the Allies, which ultimately reneged on their deal in 1919 much to Italy's fury. Hardly faithful Allies, on all sides.

Pat better go back and read some more history before writing drivel like this.

9 posted on 08/26/2008 6:16:55 PM PDT by Virginia Ridgerunner ("We must not forget that there is a war on and our troops are in the thick of it!"--Duncan Hunter)
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To: 1rudeboy

http://www.michaeltotten.com/archives/2008/08/the-truth-about-1.php


10 posted on 08/26/2008 6:17:47 PM PDT by marron
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To: Repeal The 17th
What do we do if Russia responds to our Patriots in Poland with the Russian S-300 anti-aircraft system in Iran and Syria?

They are going to export those missiles to Iran and Syria anyway. Our actions aren't affecting that.

If the United States intends to bring Georgia and Ukraine into NATO and arm them to fight Russia, why should Russia not dissolve the Treaty on Conventional Forces in Europe and move her tank armies into Belarus and up to the borders of Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania?

Russia has already dissolved that treaty. As for tanks in Belarus, they only have one modern tank army and it's in Georgia. We will be seeing it in Europe soon though.

Our intentions in arming and training the Georgians has been to enable them to govern their country and protect their borders. The Georgian army has not been trained or equipped for offensive action - as indicated by recent events.

11 posted on 08/26/2008 6:19:18 PM PDT by SeeSharp
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To: marron

I saw that earlier today. That url needs to be tattooed onto the forehead of every Russo-Serb relativist/apologist on this forum.


12 posted on 08/26/2008 6:19:24 PM PDT by 1rudeboy
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To: KantianBurke

Those are tough questions. The solution is not to cower in the bathtub as Pat suggests.


13 posted on 08/26/2008 6:21:00 PM PDT by 1rudeboy
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To: 1rudeboy

Neither is McCain’s “BOMB THEM!! KILL! KILL! KILL!” brinksmanship.


14 posted on 08/26/2008 6:24:28 PM PDT by KantianBurke (President Bush, why did you abandon Specialist Ahmed Qusai al-Taei?)
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To: 1rudeboy

Is Buchanan now working for Gazprom?


15 posted on 08/26/2008 6:25:30 PM PDT by PetroniusMaximus
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To: KantianBurke

Haven’t seen that . . . got a link?


16 posted on 08/26/2008 6:25:31 PM PDT by 1rudeboy
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To: PetroniusMaximus

No, but nearly the same place, and for the same reasons—MSNBC.


17 posted on 08/26/2008 6:26:34 PM PDT by 1rudeboy
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To: KantianBurke; 1rudeboy

Good questions, but Pat asks them with the intent that we do nothing.

Its obvious to me that we can’t directly defend eastern Europe. But its just as obvious that if they are looking to defend themselves we can have a role in that. We aren’t going to base 250,000 American troops in Ukraine the way we did in West Germany, and we aren’t going to threaten nuclear war over them.

But we have every right to do business with them, and if they want to modernize and build an effective force, we can help them do that. Bringing them into NATO isn’t going to guarantee them the security that we offered Germany. Face it, the old NATO is dead.

If Ukraine and Poland and the Baltics want to defend themselves, they are going to have to build a military capable of doing the job against a superior force. That means high-tech, high-speed, a serious force that is designed to fight and not merely for internal crowd control. And they are going to have to form an alliance-within-an-alliance, that an attack on one is an attack on all. If they will do that, Russia might think twice. If they can’t or won’t do that, they will have to depend upon appeals to world opinion, and good luck with that.

We won’t put soldiers into that battleground. They’ll have to defend themselves. But between now and then we can help these countries that clearly want to be a part of the West. We shouldn’t be embarrassed of that role.


18 posted on 08/26/2008 6:33:16 PM PDT by marron
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To: 1rudeboy

In Buchanan’s world free people should be enslaved just because the neighborhood bully wants his due.


19 posted on 08/26/2008 6:43:46 PM PDT by DB
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To: DB

Pat Buchanan probably knows all the verses to “Das Horst Wessel Lied”.

Listen on youtube. Then read the comments. Even more chilling than the words.

Pat’s off the deep end. Digs double eagle flags. Thinks Vlad the Putin is terribly misunderstood.


20 posted on 08/26/2008 6:50:59 PM PDT by elcid1970 (My cartridges are dipped in pig grease)
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To: 1rudeboy

Would someone please get Pat a CT scan? I swear he’s got a brain tumor.


21 posted on 08/26/2008 6:53:12 PM PDT by Humble Servant (SOYLENT GREEN IS PEOPLE!!!)
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To: Virginia Ridgerunner

Thank you, you beat me to it. Pat is a little loose with his historical facts.


22 posted on 08/26/2008 6:54:49 PM PDT by coolbreeze (giving money and power to government is like giving whiskey and car keys to teen-age boys.)
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To: marron
wow, thank you. Mr. Michael J. Totten's article jibes with everything I've read between and thru the propaganda, too. It's consistent.

http://www.michaeltotten.com/archives/2008/08/the-truth-about-1.php

23 posted on 08/26/2008 7:23:23 PM PDT by Alia
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To: 1rudeboy

Just change your shorts, Pat, and drink something bracing.


24 posted on 08/26/2008 7:28:46 PM PDT by NicknamedBob (In Russia, "Think Tank" is a philosophy, not a planning group.)
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To: 1rudeboy
While it is unlikely that we'd ever, in the long run, be good buddies with Putin, it is most unfortunate that we chose to intervene in Kosovo, at least in the way we did, thus adding fuel to his anti-western and paranoia based expansionist agenda. The Kosovo conflict was an opportunity missed. Funny, Clinton was then at the helm.
25 posted on 08/26/2008 7:31:03 PM PDT by wgflyer (Liberalism is to society what HIV is to the immune system.)
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To: 1rudeboy
So, just digging into the WWII comparison a bit, would Pat have advocated sending Americans to fight in Europe against Hitler's Nazi Germany? And after we defeated Hitler's Nazis, would Pat have suggested we joint NATO and fight the communist Soviets in Korea, Vietnam and the rest of the cold war? And what of the former Soviet states, was it better for us to do nothing while Poland, Hungary and the rest were overrun by the Soviet Union? Given his stance on fighting the islamocrazies, I'm guessing he'd say it's not our problem, they are not our problem, the world is not our problem.
26 posted on 08/26/2008 7:31:34 PM PDT by GBA
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To: 1rudeboy

Foe later read


27 posted on 08/26/2008 7:35:28 PM PDT by redgolum ("God is dead" -- Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" -- God.)
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To: wgflyer

Nonsense. Ask yourself, would Putin have still invaded Georgia without our intervention in Kosovo?


28 posted on 08/26/2008 7:35:51 PM PDT by 1rudeboy
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To: GBA

Wasn’t one of the premises in Pat’s latest book that we wouldn’t have gone to war with Germany if Great Britain had not agreed to defend Poland? (It was something along those lines).


29 posted on 08/26/2008 7:38:17 PM PDT by 1rudeboy
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To: GBA

Actually, he wrote a book recently about how we should have stayed out of WWII and let Europe handle it.


30 posted on 08/26/2008 7:39:12 PM PDT by redgolum ("God is dead" -- Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" -- God.)
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To: 1rudeboy

The name Pat Buchanan brings this to mind ( I hate Illinois Nazis):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t101rO7WuAM


31 posted on 08/26/2008 7:40:14 PM PDT by HereInTheHeartland ("We have to drain the swamp" George Bush, September 2001)
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To: HereInTheHeartland

I grew up playing on that bridge. (It’s in Marquette Park, and not part of the Chicago street system).


32 posted on 08/26/2008 7:44:03 PM PDT by 1rudeboy
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To: 1rudeboy
Human Events ^ | August 26, 2008 | Patrick J. Buchanan

That's as far as I got.

33 posted on 08/26/2008 7:56:44 PM PDT by uglybiker (I do not suffer from mental illness. I quite enjoy it, actually.)
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To: SeeSharp

Pat neither knows nor cares to know the facts. He hates America so much at this point that our enemies look virtuous and our allies evil.


34 posted on 08/26/2008 8:13:15 PM PDT by rmlew (NYARLATHOTEP / BIDEN'08 . If you don't believe me check out the first's wikipedia page.)
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To: rmlew

Pat’s brain died a few years ago.


35 posted on 08/26/2008 9:02:13 PM PDT by WilliamReading
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To: marron

Excellent post. IMHO, its a “local” problem which can and should be solved at the local level through the methods you have described.


36 posted on 08/26/2008 9:36:34 PM PDT by KantianBurke (President Bush, why did you abandon Specialist Ahmed Qusai al-Taei?)
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To: 1rudeboy
“Nonsense. Ask yourself, would Putin have still invaded Georgia without our intervention in Kosovo?”

No doubt, yes. None the less, I feel that we give substance to the justification of his paranoia through such actions and give him propaganda points he shouldn't have had. We were and are, in my mind, clearly wrong in Kosovo and it definitely affects our credibility in Georgia.

37 posted on 08/27/2008 7:28:25 PM PDT by wgflyer (Liberalism is to society what HIV is to the immune system.)
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