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WWII diplomat proposed Britain, Germany split world
cnn.com /europe ^ | updated 9:52 p.m. EDT, Sat August 30, 2008 | AP via CNN.Com

Posted on 08/31/2008 2:43:24 AM PDT by F15Eagle

LONDON, England (AP) -- An amateur diplomat alarmed British officials during World War II by proposing that Germany and Britain divide the world between them, according to records released Sunday.

James Lonsdale-Bryans, a fascist sympathizer, traveled to Italy early in the war to meet the German ambassador, Ulrich von Hassell.

"It would appear that Bryans may be taking part in unofficial discussions," said a Secret Service memo released by the National Archives.

"Bryans' idea is that the world ought to be divided into two parts. That Germany should be given a free hand in Europe and that the British Empire should run the rest of the world.

"I am not sure that this is a very desirable point of view to publish at the present time."

The records show that Bryans had been in touch with Britain's Foreign Secretary Lord Halifax, and the Secret Service was unsure how much backing Lonsdale-Bryans may have had from the Foreign Office.

"Bryans is a talkative and indiscreet fellow who is in possession of a story which he delights in telling and which if told publicly would be likely to cause embarrassment to the Foreign Office," one memo said.

Lonsdale-Bryans also tried to discuss his plans with American officials including Gen. Dwight Eisenhower, prompting British officials to tell the Americans that Lonsdale-Bryans was "unreliable though not disloyal."

Despite whatever embarrassment Lonsdale-Bryans may have caused, British officials did not move against him.

(Excerpt) Read more at cnn.com ...


TOPICS: News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: appeaser; chamberlain; history; hitler; idiot; wwii
Shades of an Obama presidency ... what it would look like

Also similar to the idiotic efforts to give the islamic terror groups a significant portion of Israel.

1 posted on 08/31/2008 2:43:24 AM PDT by F15Eagle
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To: F15Eagle
That Germany should be given a free hand in Europe and that the British Empire should run the rest of the world.

I suppose that, if the Brits and the Germans were feeling generous, a few crumbs might have fallen from the table for the United States.

Regards,

2 posted on 08/31/2008 2:48:37 AM PDT by alexander_busek
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To: F15Eagle

> Shades of an Obama presidency ... what it would look like

Or indeed like Carter: isn’t amateur diplomacy his specialty?


3 posted on 08/31/2008 2:54:27 AM PDT by DieHard the Hunter (Is mise an ceann-cinnidh. Cha ghéill mi do dhuine. Fàg am bealach.)
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To: alexander_busek

Perhaps this is what Rudolf Hess was offering to the British when he parachuted down in 1941. For his trouble he was given life imprisonment. Churchill and Roosevelt gave Stalin a free hand in Eastern Europe, and the British lost their empire.


4 posted on 08/31/2008 3:01:25 AM PDT by Judges Gone Wild
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To: F15Eagle
Why the "surprise" over this amateur diplomat proposal? It has to be acknowledged that the power alignment and alliances (West, Germany, Soviet Union and in the East Japan and China) shifted forth and back throughout the years. It was way more complex than the simplistic West/Soviets versus Nazis. The very real PM Chamberlain was doing this pre-war. Britain in the late 1930's, during the time of appeasement, encouraged German activity internationally in order to keep the Soviets in check. The chief Nazi ideologue on foreign policy Rosenberg envisioned a anti-Soviet alliance which included the British Empire.Then with the Hitler-Stalin pact 1939 to mid-1941, Britain/West faced a German-Soviet alliance internationally. The Axis and Soviets were making plans to unite against Britain and split up the entire world. Then the German attack on the Soviets allied the Soviets to the West, so at the end of the day it was the West and the Soviets splitting up the world. But if even minor circumstances would have taken a different course during all these years, there might have been a Axis-Western or Axis-Soviet split-up of the world alternatively.

Indulging into a alternative what-if: Retrospectively the best alternate scenario would have been the West standing with the technologically superior Czechs in 1938, suckering Germany into a war over Czechoslovakia, defeating and toppling Hitler early on and then creating an international bulwark against the Soviet Union isolating and pressuring them..., in shape of a global belt under Anglo-American lead maybe even including a regime-changed Germany, but in any case all European nations, Turkey, Iran, Afghanistan and Kuomitang China. Basically an early Cold War with better positions for the West. Japan might have been offered a huge chunk of Eastern Siberia in exchange for them leaving China, although I reckon the agressive Japanese militarism wouldn't have been defeated by that way. Yet The Communist takeover of China would have been prevented that way.

5 posted on 08/31/2008 3:12:00 AM PDT by SolidWood (McCain/Palin 2008)
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To: Judges Gone Wild

Vielen Dank für die Geschichtslektion!

Mit freundlichen Grüßen


6 posted on 08/31/2008 3:15:40 AM PDT by alexander_busek
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To: SolidWood
Retrospectively the best alternate scenario would have been the West standing with the technologically superior Czechs in 1938, suckering Germany into a war over Czechoslovakia, defeating and toppling Hitler early on and then creating an international bulwark against the Soviet Union isolating and pressuring them..., in shape of a global belt under Anglo-American lead maybe even including a regime-changed Germany [...]

I'm afraid that such an adventure (the West forging an alliance with Czechoslovakia, etc.) would have been only a minor interlude, and would not have permanently derailed Hitler. Rather, it would have only delayed his aggression - which, in the final analysis, would have been to the benefit of his regime. It would have certainly delayed - and possibly prevented - Unternehmen Barbarossa (Hitler's attack on the Soviet Union on June 22, 1941,) which was Hitler's cardinal mistake. In fact, an American presence in Central Europe would probably have strengthened Soviet-Nazi ties.

Still, kontrafaktische Geschichte is an amusing pastime.

Basically speaking, I'd say that the Atlantic alliance has survived as long as it has ONLY because Europe first had to pass through the Götterdämmerung that was WW II.

Regards,

7 posted on 08/31/2008 3:25:43 AM PDT by alexander_busek
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To: F15Eagle

Obama will propose a deal with Mexico, where Mexico and the United States split the US and we shrink to pre-Louisiana Purchase territory.


8 posted on 08/31/2008 3:38:12 AM PDT by BuffaloJack
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To: alexander_busek
I suppose that, if the Brits and the Germans were feeling generous, a few crumbs might have fallen from the table for the United States.

Well, to be fair, we'd already pretty much claimed the Western Hemisphere through the Monroe Doctrine. In theory that was to protect weak countries from European interference but in practice it left a power vacuum we moved into whenever it suited our purposes.

9 posted on 08/31/2008 4:34:06 AM PDT by Grut
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To: Grut
Well, to be fair, we'd already pretty much claimed the Western Hemisphere through the Monroe Doctrine. In theory that was to protect weak countries from European interference but in practice it left a power vacuum we moved into whenever it suited our purposes.

Roosevelt, even as he was helping the Brits through "Lend Lease", was getting rid of the remnants of British Power in the Caribbean. We got a lot of military basing rights in exchange for the transfer of WW1 4-stacker destroyers. It was a pretty good deal for US strategic interests & pretty much completed the Monroe Doctrine.

10 posted on 08/31/2008 6:09:32 AM PDT by Tallguy ("The sh- t's chess, it ain't checkers!" -- Alonzo (Denzel Washington) in "Training Day")
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To: SolidWood

It has recently come to light that Stalin was planning to attack Germany first, but Hitler beat him to the punch. Whether Russia was in any position to execute that invasion is an interesting question. His purge of the Soviet officer corps was still crippling the Soviet military potential.

Stalin must have been pretty disappointed when France sat on their hands when Germany re-militarized the Rhineland. If that had not happened you might have seen French/British & Russian troops meeting at the Rhine or Elbe Rivers — which, come to think of it is pretty much what happended in 1945.


11 posted on 08/31/2008 6:18:07 AM PDT by Tallguy ("The sh- t's chess, it ain't checkers!" -- Alonzo (Denzel Washington) in "Training Day")
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