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Are You Too Dumb to Understand Evolution?
CreationEvolutionHeadlines ^ | September 10, 2008

Posted on 09/11/2008 9:55:10 AM PDT by GodGunsGuts

Sept 10, 2008 — Astrobiologist David Deamer believes that life can spontaneously emerge without design, but he thinks lay people are too uneducated to understand how this is possible, so he gives them the watered-down version of Darwin’s natural selection instead, which he knows is inadequate to explain the complexity of life. That’s what he seemed to be telling reporter Susan Mazur in an interview for the Scoop (New Zealand). Is the lay public really too dense for the deeper knowledge of how evolution works?...

(Excerpt) Read more at creationsafaris.com ...


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Government; News/Current Events; Philosophy
KEYWORDS: 2smart2fall4it; atheistagenda; creation; crevo; darwin; evolution; god; intelligentdesign; scientism
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To: LeGrande

No one person put the NT together.

Not today and not ever! ;)


1,351 posted on 09/19/2008 9:50:23 AM PDT by tpanther (All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. Edmund Burke)
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To: tacticalogic

Then I don’t get it. First you say that they’re telling everyone that all scientists are Darwinists/atheits and then you say that’s not the case at all.


You’re confused. There are indeed professors who are guilty of such, but they’re certainly not the only ones!


1,352 posted on 09/19/2008 9:51:55 AM PDT by tpanther (All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. Edmund Burke)
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To: ColdWater; MrB
God is the only entity that has the right to determine life or death of the entities created in His image.

God did determine that the death penalty is valid under certain circumstances. He directed men to carry that out, but it was His determination.

1,353 posted on 09/19/2008 9:52:52 AM PDT by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: whattajoke; metmom; ColdWater

OK, I do not have the time to educate the ignorant on the continuance of law from the OT to the NT.

Matthew 5:17 - Do not think that I have come to do away with or undo the Law or the Prophets; I have come not to do away with or undo but to complete and fulfill them.

I grow weary of educating the willfully ignorant and those who seek simply to snipe from a comfortably smug sense of arrogance combined with ignorance.


1,354 posted on 09/19/2008 9:55:07 AM PDT by MrB (You can't reason people out of a position that they didn't use reason to get into in the first place)
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To: metmom

My mistake, metmom.

I left the door open for the petty little sniper to pick a nit that I thought was obvious.


1,355 posted on 09/19/2008 9:57:53 AM PDT by MrB (You can't reason people out of a position that they didn't use reason to get into in the first place)
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To: tpanther

So who had everyone convince of it? If people are only now realizing it’s not true then everone must have believed it before then.


1,356 posted on 09/19/2008 9:58:35 AM PDT by tacticalogic ("Oh bother!" said Pooh, as he chambered his last round.)
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To: metmom
God did determine that the death penalty is valid under certain circumstances. He directed men to carry that out, but it was His determination.

How do we know that it is God's determination when we kill others?

1,357 posted on 09/19/2008 10:00:07 AM PDT by ColdWater
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To: MrB
OK, I do not have the time to educate the ignorant on the continuance of law from the OT to the NT.

Matthew 5:17 - Do not think that I have come to do away with or undo the Law or the Prophets; I have come not to do away with or undo but to complete and fulfill them.

I grow weary of educating the willfully ignorant and those who seek simply to snipe from a comfortably smug sense of arrogance combined with ignorance.


Cop-out duly noted. Are you telling me that there is no longer any debate about certain OT tenets and laws today? That Matthew took care of all that debate with one verse a few thousand years later? MrB, I think there's a megachurch in Co Springs for you to assume the head of!
1,358 posted on 09/19/2008 10:03:26 AM PDT by whattajoke
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To: Fichori
Your argument the whole time has been that the sun appears to go across the sky every day?

Pretty much that is it : ) Apparent vs the actual position of what we see, using the Earth as our point of reference. It couldn't be much simpler.

1,359 posted on 09/19/2008 10:06:26 AM PDT by LeGrande
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To: whattajoke

Arrogant smug snipership duly noted.

Really, I don’t give a rip, I know that the Bible does not condone abortion and does condone the death penalty.

You seem to care a lot about arguing this issue. Bother someone else who cares.


1,360 posted on 09/19/2008 10:09:05 AM PDT by MrB (You can't reason people out of a position that they didn't use reason to get into in the first place)
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To: tpanther
No one person put the NT together.

Not today and not ever! ;)

You need to read your history. The pagan Constantine was your man : )

1,361 posted on 09/19/2008 10:11:04 AM PDT by LeGrande
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To: mrjesse; ColdWater; LeGrande
“The disagreement is that LeGrande is claiming that at any given instant, the sun's apparent position is lagged behind it's actual(and gravitational) angular position by about 2.1 degrees due to the earth's rotation rate of 2.1 degrees during the ~8.3 minutes it takes light to reach the earth from the sun. He'd be absolutely right if the sun orbited the earth - but it pretty much doesn't.” [excerpt]
There is something very fishy going on here...

LeGrande has said in 1238 that he agrees with the statement:
“The two body example is a good one. If one is completely stationary, its optical image will be aligned with is gravitation pull.

Viewing the orbiting planet from the stationary planet will cause the optical image of the orbiting planet to lag its gravitational pull.
Why did he agree?
Was it because I did not specifically say that the orbiting planet was also rotating on its polls?
If I had said the orbiting planet is also rotating on its polls, would he have still agreed?

Concerning the difference between orbiting and being orbited, he went on to assert that:
“By definition of course there is a difference, but it is the same difference between accelerating at one G or being in the Earths gravitational field. The result is the same, it is a distinction without a difference.” [excerpt]
To which I replied:
There is a distinction.
They are the same in that they both create the appearance of angular motion.

But only one is detectable with a laser ring gyro.
And then to my statement about creating the appearance of angular motion, he replied:
“Thank you, my job is done : )”

So where do the 8.3 minutes and 2.1° fit in?

Yes, the earth rotates ~2.1° in 8.3 minutes, but it would do that even if the Sun was 39 minutes away!

Is he just saying that, when you look up at the Sun, it goes across the sky?

Well duh!

But there will be no 2.1° of separation between where it appears to be and its gravitational pull.

Less than 21 arcseconds yes, 2.1° NO!

Like Elmer Fudd says, There something scwewy awound here...

LeGrande:
If the Sun and Earth were perfectly motionless in space, except the Earth was rotating 360° every 24 hours, would (at high noon, sans the atmosphere) the optical image of the Sun be lagged 2.1° behind its gravitational pull?
1,362 posted on 09/19/2008 10:23:08 AM PDT by Fichori (ironic: adj. 1 Characterized by or constituting irony. 2 Obamy getting beat up by a girl.)
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To: Fichori

I read your post. It is meaningless and a total distortion of any sense of reality.


1,363 posted on 09/19/2008 10:27:59 AM PDT by ColdWater
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To: metmom
You don't think that those people were worse than those today?

That has nothing to do with my point.

My point is that killing millions of men, women, children, fetuses, puppies and other animals with the flood, there is no improvement in the world. Biblical history after the flood is full of corruption, warfare, genocides ordered by God, slavery sanctioned by God.

I'd say not many people would trade their lives today for that of a random person in Old Testament times. Especially considering the odds against being one of the Chosen.

1,364 posted on 09/19/2008 10:28:04 AM PDT by js1138
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To: LeGrande; mrjesse
“Your argument the whole time has been that the sun appears to go across the sky every day?”
“Pretty much that is it : ) Apparent vs the actual position of what we see, using the Earth as our point of reference. It couldn't be much simpler. ”
Are you saying that if you pointed your finger at the optical position of the Sun, you would be pointing 2.1° behind its gravitational position?

The only actual position versus apparent position discrepancy (sans atmospheric effects) will be less than 21 arcseconds.

Are you claiming otherwise?
1,365 posted on 09/19/2008 10:32:50 AM PDT by Fichori (ironic: adj. 1 Characterized by or constituting irony. 2 Obamy getting beat up by a girl.)
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To: ColdWater
He said so. And it wasn't part of the Law either. His command to Noah was given well before the Law was given to Moses.

Gen 9: 5&6 5 And for your lifeblood I will surely demand an accounting. I will demand an accounting from every animal. And from each man, too, I will demand an accounting for the life of his fellow man.

6 "Whoever sheds the blood of man,
by man shall his blood be shed;
for in the image of God
has God made man.

There's also all the cases that required the death penalty in the OT.

And as for why? I'd say that morally, it's because God is the Author of life and no man has the right to determine when or where another will die. It's not man's place to decide that.

As a practical matter, giving the death penalty to murderers protects society. It would likely prevent conditions on earth from getting as bad as they were just before the Flood.

A case in point is our society today as the death penalty has fallen by the wayside. Look at how many murderers are repeat offenders. If they got the death penalty, the crime rate would go down.

1,366 posted on 09/19/2008 10:34:00 AM PDT by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: ColdWater
“I read your post. It is meaningless and a total distortion of any sense of reality.”
I'm sorry, I didn't mean to talk over your head.

I'll try to remember to not ping you to highly technical stuff in the future.
1,367 posted on 09/19/2008 10:34:02 AM PDT by Fichori (ironic: adj. 1 Characterized by or constituting irony. 2 Obamy getting beat up by a girl.)
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To: Fichori
So where do the 8.3 minutes and 2.1° fit in?

I guess it is back to the basics to relieve you from your confused state. It takes about 8.3 seconds for the light to travel from the sun to earth. In that 8.3 seconds the earth rotates approximately 2.1 degrees.

1,368 posted on 09/19/2008 10:35:38 AM PDT by ColdWater
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To: ColdWater

Read it. Go to church. A Christ centered church. Read Christ’s own words.


1,369 posted on 09/19/2008 10:36:28 AM PDT by tpanther (All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. Edmund Burke)
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To: whattajoke; MrB
See, MrB is all for OT Laws ruling the land.

More hyperbole, as is expected from the evos. Point to where MrB stated that he wanted the OT laws to be the law of the land, if you will.

1,370 posted on 09/19/2008 10:37:51 AM PDT by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: LeGrande

I’m familiar with Constantine, I’m referring to the authors of each book. Alot of people were responsible for the NT.


1,371 posted on 09/19/2008 10:38:37 AM PDT by tpanther (All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. Edmund Burke)
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To: Fichori
I'll try to remember to not ping you to highly technical stuff in the future.

Not to worry. Your posting 'highly technical stuff' is the last thing I would expect to see.

1,372 posted on 09/19/2008 10:38:56 AM PDT by ColdWater
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To: tacticalogic

I wouldn’t necessrily say everyone, but far too many were, IMO.

You’re parsing words here.

You must be a raiders fan? :)


1,373 posted on 09/19/2008 10:41:08 AM PDT by tpanther (All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. Edmund Burke)
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To: ColdWater; mrjesse
“So where do the 8.3 minutes and 2.1° fit in?”
“I guess it is back to the basics to relieve you from your confused state. It takes about 8.3 seconds for the light to travel from the sun to earth. In that 8.3 seconds the earth rotates approximately 2.1 degrees.”
(Did you mean 8.3 minutes?)

And in 12 hours, the Earth rotates 180°

Are you saying there is a 2.1° separation between the Suns apparent position and its gravitational pull?

Can you back that up with a reputable source?
1,374 posted on 09/19/2008 10:42:41 AM PDT by Fichori (ironic: adj. 1 Characterized by or constituting irony. 2 Obamy getting beat up by a girl.)
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To: LeGrande; tpanther
You need to read your history. The pagan Constantine was your man : )

Try again. A quick google search will show that you're wrong, again. But coming from someone who thinks that "the pope and his boys" wrote the NT, that's not surprising. (post 1,254).

1,375 posted on 09/19/2008 10:47:19 AM PDT by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: Fichori

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aberration_of_light


1,376 posted on 09/19/2008 10:50:23 AM PDT by ColdWater
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To: tpanther

Apparently anything I say that’s not dead on is “hyperbole”. If I take comments at face value I’m “parsing words”. It’s really hard to have a conversation under those conditions.


1,377 posted on 09/19/2008 10:55:15 AM PDT by tacticalogic ("Oh bother!" said Pooh, as he chambered his last round.)
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To: metmom
I though that the ToE didn't deal with origins. How could this thread qualify then?

This is from the interview that is the basis of the thread.

Suzan Mazur: But there are other mechanisms contributing to evolution. The public is not being told about this. Not informing the public is not really serving the public.

David Deamer: The Astrobiology Primer and the Origins of Life program are intended for a lay audience. Biologists agree that life started simple and became more complex through a natural process, and at the most general level we call that process evolution.

If I were teaching an advanced class in evolutionary biology to a college level audience, they would have enough preparation to deal with the other aspects that go into the evolutionary process beyond Darwin’s initial explanation. It takes a lot of background to understand the details that contribute to the evolutionary process.

For instance, the Altenberg 16 you have written about are professional biologists who are trying to go beyond the simplistic explanations that involve nothing more than natural selection. They are bringing to the table ideas that require considerable knowledge to understand their argument.

I certainly wouldn’t want to state that natural selection is the only process driving evolution, but if I am going to explain what that means my audience needs to have enough information to understand the questions that are being raised.

Suzan Mazur: But as Stuart Newman, one of the Altenberg 16 scientists has pointed out, there would be more of an acceptance of evolution if the science was where it should be. He also says “old science” is being pushed in the mainstream media.

David Deamer: I get the point. Unfortunately, creationists have politicized the science so much that the very fact of evolution is being questioned.

Perhaps this is why scientists tend to fall back on the bedrock of Darwin’s basic concepts when they speak in a public forum. No one denies the factual basis of evolution, but we are still learning how evolution takes place, particularly in animal and plant populations in ecosystems.

I have debated creationists and intelligent design people in public forums, and my impression is that they are not looking for scientific truth. Instead they are working to advance their political aim, which is to get Christian fundamentalism taught in public schools as an alternative to evolution.


1,378 posted on 09/19/2008 10:56:40 AM PDT by js1138
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To: ColdWater
I have been referencing that wikipedia article.

Just saw 1,256

Thanks
1,379 posted on 09/19/2008 10:58:59 AM PDT by Fichori (ironic: adj. 1 Characterized by or constituting irony. 2 Obamy getting beat up by a girl.)
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To: Fichori
Are you saying there is a 2.1° separation between the Suns apparent position and its gravitational pull?

No. I am saying that the component in the change in apparent position due to the earth's rotation is approximately 2.1 degrees.

1,380 posted on 09/19/2008 11:00:32 AM PDT by ColdWater
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To: Fichori

You just saw 1256? Are you now starting to understand or are you still lost?


1,381 posted on 09/19/2008 11:02:48 AM PDT by ColdWater
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To: Fichori

Yesterday, I had a question to you about 2-body orbits which you did not answer. Did you do the homework assignment I gave to you last night?


1,382 posted on 09/19/2008 11:05:05 AM PDT by ColdWater
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To: Fichori
There is a difference between orbiting and being orbited.

What is the difference?

1,383 posted on 09/19/2008 11:07:51 AM PDT by ColdWater
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To: MrB
You're too much! Calm down, buddy.

Really, I don’t give a rip, I know that the Bible does not condone abortion and does condone the death penalty.

I don't condone abortion and I support the DP too. But I'm hardly as authoritative as the Bible.

You seem to care a lot about arguing this issue. Bother someone else who cares.

YOU put the OT verses on FR in order to show the Bible condones the DP. My point, that you are either too angry or too scared to discuss, is quite valid.

That is, you point to pro-DP verses, then back them up with a Matthew verse somehow. But what about the many other verses I can only assume you do not follow. I didn't see Matthew pick and choose. How do you? (And, for the sake of keeping tenuously on topic, how do you then decide Genesis is "law" but infanticide is antiquated? I find this discussion very interesting.

I'm sorry that you don't.
1,384 posted on 09/19/2008 11:10:02 AM PDT by whattajoke
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To: ColdWater
“No. I am saying that the component in the change in apparent position due to the earth's rotation is approximately 2.1 degrees.”
2.1° is no more special than 5.4°

At least that I have seen demonstrated.
1,385 posted on 09/19/2008 11:11:02 AM PDT by Fichori (ironic: adj. 1 Characterized by or constituting irony. 2 Obamy getting beat up by a girl.)
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To: ColdWater
“You just saw 1256?” [excerpt]
Its what happens when you get ping vision.

I'm just now starting to catch up with the tread.
1,386 posted on 09/19/2008 11:13:07 AM PDT by Fichori (ironic: adj. 1 Characterized by or constituting irony. 2 Obamy getting beat up by a girl.)
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To: Fichori

Please explain your 5.4 degrees.


1,387 posted on 09/19/2008 11:13:41 AM PDT by ColdWater
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To: ColdWater
“Yesterday, I had a question to you about 2-body orbits which you did not answer. Did you do the homework assignment I gave to you last night?”
My reply: 1236

1,388 posted on 09/19/2008 11:16:38 AM PDT by Fichori (ironic: adj. 1 Characterized by or constituting irony. 2 Obamy getting beat up by a girl.)
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To: metmom

ON nearly every thread you bring your obsession with abiogenesis, as if there is some magic barrier that will prevent science from figuring out how life began. It’s just another argument from gaps, and it’s a really stupid position to hold, because the gaps will erode.

For the record, ignorance of some aspect of history does not invalidate known history. Not knowing exactly how and when the first humans came to America does not mean that There were no humans to greet Columbus, nor does it suggest they were poofed into existence just before he arrived. Nor does it mean we must ignore or withhold teaching American history until the problem of origins is settled.


1,389 posted on 09/19/2008 11:18:33 AM PDT by js1138
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To: Fichori
I didn't come here to learn about two-body orbits from a guy that doesn't know the difference between time-light correction and the aberration of light

Why do you make things like that up and post it. I have been trying to explain that to you but to no avail.

1,390 posted on 09/19/2008 11:19:40 AM PDT by ColdWater
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To: Fichori

Then you should be able to answer my question to you about the differences in orbiting.


1,391 posted on 09/19/2008 11:21:10 AM PDT by ColdWater
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To: ColdWater
“There is a difference between orbiting and being orbited.”
“What is the difference?”
LOL!

Oh dear...

Light-time correction versus the Aberration of light

Ones is the result of orbiting, the other is result by being orbited.

(i.e. motion of the observer v. motion of the observed)
1,392 posted on 09/19/2008 11:24:49 AM PDT by Fichori (ironic: adj. 1 Characterized by or constituting irony. 2 Obamy getting beat up by a girl.)
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To: Fichori
Ones is the result of orbiting, the other is result by being orbited.

What is the difference between orbiting and being orbited? Simple question, stop evading it.

1,393 posted on 09/19/2008 11:26:27 AM PDT by ColdWater
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To: Fichori
Ones is the result of orbiting, the other is result by being orbited.

Let me rephrase the query.

Define "orbiting"
Define "being orbited"

Define the difference between "orbiting" and "being orbited".

1,394 posted on 09/19/2008 11:31:08 AM PDT by ColdWater
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To: ColdWater
“Please explain your 5.4 degrees.”
If my calculations are correct, its how many degrees the Earth turns in 21.6 minutes.
1,395 posted on 09/19/2008 11:31:36 AM PDT by Fichori (ironic: adj. 1 Characterized by or constituting irony. 2 Obamy getting beat up by a girl.)
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To: Fichori

Why did you pick 21.6 minutes?


1,396 posted on 09/19/2008 11:35:01 AM PDT by ColdWater
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To: Fichori

Ignore my last. I now know the significance of 21.6 minutes. All is solved. Thank you.


1,397 posted on 09/19/2008 11:36:33 AM PDT by ColdWater
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To: ColdWater
“Why did you pick 21.6 minutes?”
Actually, I didn't pick 21.6 minutes.

I picked 5.4° and then went and did the math.

Kinda like the 2.1°, 8.3999999520 minute correlation.

Just like the 14.29°, 57.1599999360 minute correlation.

Hey, whata ya know!

There is also the 360°, 1440 minute correlation!

Am I smart or what!
1,398 posted on 09/19/2008 11:45:21 AM PDT by Fichori (ironic: adj. 1 Characterized by or constituting irony. 2 Obamy getting beat up by a girl.)
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To: Fichori
Am I smart or what!

Smart? Smart like a three year old ...

1,399 posted on 09/19/2008 11:49:39 AM PDT by ColdWater
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To: ColdWater
At least I still have my sense of humor.
1,400 posted on 09/19/2008 11:59:02 AM PDT by Fichori (ironic: adj. 1 Characterized by or constituting irony. 2 Obamy getting beat up by a girl.)
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